So let's talk about Mask of the Phantasm...

[November Rain]

you pretty much repeated what i said godzilla

well to be fair a large majority of the batman cartoons from back in the day were stand alone pieces, so i assume this story was the same.

the only time it really became relevant was when it came round to terry's origin. I guess they thought they didn't want to beat people over the head with it.

at least it was mentioned, none of the other dcau films could potentially be in continuity, not even the superman/batman crossover.

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by November Rain

you pretty much repeated what i said godzilla

well to be fair a large majority of the batman cartoons from back in the day were stand alone pieces, so i assume this story was the same.

the only time it really became relevant was when it came round to terry's origin. I guess they thought they didn't want to beat people over the head with it.

at least it was mentioned, none of the other dcau films could potentially be in continuity, not even the superman/batman crossover.

It's just frustrating when that they went to all the effort to make a film about Bruce's past, and never bring it up again.

[EliteF50]

MOTP is easily the best Batman movie ever made, imo.

[Mister Meddle]

I think Batman Beyond Return of the Joker is the best animated film. Mask of the Phantasm comes in second place.

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by Mister Meddle

I think Batman Beyond Return of the Joker is the best animated film. Mask of the Phantasm comes in second place.

Anyone notice that both of these highly-acclaimed DCAU Batman films have plots based on the return of something from Bruce's past to Gotham and flashbacks to said period in time? Furthermore the flashbacks bookend Bruce Wayne's career as Batman, Mask Of The Phantasm's flashbacks show the beginning of Bruce Wayne's tenure behind the mantle of the Bat, while Return Of The Joker's flashbacks show the beginning of the end.

[Fudgie]

I like Under the Red Hood and Return of the Joker more than Phantasm.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by Mister Meddle

I think Batman Beyond Return of the Joker is the best animated film. Mask of the Phantasm comes in second place.

I wished terry's fight with the joker lasted longer.

but i loved the idea of bruce trying to make terry fight tim/joker his normal way and terry decided to go streetwise on him. Terry nailing the joker in the nuts is great.

i love return of the joker but it had some weaker parts to it. But for nostalgia sake, the episode of dissapearing inque in batman beyond was epic, seeing bruce in the costume again and the motp them going full blaze with an electric guitar

[November Rain]

you know the only mistake I think the entire paul dini show made

I think in epilogue would have been better IF the dna fusion had not had worked on terry but had worked on his younger brother, since his he was about the same age when his father died to when bruce's parents died. So they tried it with terry and the phantasm refused

so in a sense, terry's relationship would stop his younger brother from having that vengeful batman side to him, and also if his brother became the new robin and would ultimately become the heir to the batman throne.

so bruce and terry would still have some relation

it would have also made images like this more touching in retrospect, and seeing mat (who has the superhero alliteration in his name already)





plus is would have been a lil less obvious and would all let us know what happened to matt in the end.

[I Am The Knight]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I don't think that's true at all. I think before he met her, Bruce was going with his plan full force, but what Andrea did was introduce second thoughts into his head, something that I haven't seen in any other incarnation (Bruce questioning if he wants to be Batman BEFORE he becomes Batman). Bruce didn't become Batman because of Andrea, but when she left him he realized that in this world he couldn't find happiness, and that he shouldn't try to look for it. In a way, Bruce grows up through Andrea, when she leaves he finally faces up to his responsibilities and becomes the costumed avenger we love today. Just my two cents.

Agreed. When she left, he realized he had nothing left. The idea of a normal life was gone for him. Well, there was Alfred, but that is a different type of relationship.

Originally Posted by The Joker

I think Payaso means Bruce was willing to drop his crusade to become Batman in order to be with Andrea. When she came back into his life years later and they re-connected, he was again contemplating giving up to be with her.

Yeah, but Bruce tried to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel in TDK, too.

Originally Posted by Godzilla2014

Rachel's involvement in Bruce's path to becoming Batman in Batman Begins is VERY different from Andrea's involvement in Bruce's path to becoming Batman in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.
Rachel gave Bruce the foundation of his moral and ethical codes as Batman, and her conversation with Bruce in BB is the beginning of Bruce's journey to becoming Batman.
In B:MotP, Bruce was already on the path to becoming Batman, and was willing to give that up to be with Andrea.

Right, but it's uncertain what would've become of Bruce had Rachel never dropped him off at Falcone's. Nolan's Bruce needed to be spoonfed a lot of moral codes and dilemmas to get into the mindset of becoming Batman. He was directionless, and I'm not sure that he would've gone on any journey around the world without Rachel and Falcone.

And again in TDK, he was willing to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel. In MOTP, I believe he wanted to financially help the police to make up for not being Batman, and in TDK he wanted to um...Well Dent was on the scene so apparently everyting would be fine now

[akfj]

Originally Posted by November Rain

you know the only mistake I think the entire paul dini show made

Are you referring to the episode "Epilogue", the DCAU, or B:TAS? He didn't write "Epilogue", and he wrote quite a few episodes in the DCAU, but Bruce Timm, Alan Burnett, and later Dwayne McDuffie deserve creit, too. Sorry, it just seems that he tends to get more credit for the DCAU as opposed to others like Alan Burnett and Dwayne McDuffie.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by Godzilla2014

It's just frustrating when that they went to all the effort to make a film about Bruce's past, and never bring it up again.

it wouldn't have added that much to the narrative to be fair, unless they decided to bring the phantasm back to the fold.

i quite liked the fact bruce never saw her again, some characters i feel are just not meant to reoccur.

unlike kyodia-ken, he definitely should have featured more, i thought he was aweome.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by akfj

Are you referring to the episode "Epilogue", the DCAU, or B:TAS? He didn't write "Epilogue", and he wrote quite a few episodes in the DCAU, but Bruce Timm, Alan Burnett, and later Dwayne McDuffie deserve creit, too. Sorry, it just seems that he tends to get more credit for the DCAU as opposed to others like Alan Burnett and Dwayne McDuffie.

semantic mistake, but you know what i mean.

i wasn't trying to steal credit, but using the dcau would have been more accurate.

and yeah, epilogue.

[akfj]

OK.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I loved "Epilogue".

Even though it's a freaky...****ed up thing that happened. Mr. McGinnis firing off Wayne rockets and not knowing it.

...so ****ing weird.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Andrea Beaumont is the best Batman love interest, ever.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by November Rain

but in nolan's films, bruce's reason to become batman is somewhat because of rachel.

i mean at least in the phantasm, andrea derails his batman quest while in nolan's batman, rachel motivates him to become batman

Not too happy about that either. I think BB was a good promise but a so-so execution. Rachel was part of the latter.

Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

Yeah, but Bruce tried to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel in TDK, too.

But when 1) he was already Batman for a long while and 2) when he thought harvey could do a better job than Batman. Bruce thought Batman was not going to be necessary anymore.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop

Andrea Beaumont is the best Batman love interest, ever.

damn straight, it makes catwoman seem...balanced and like a small crush, and talia seem like an escort,

there's an episode where bruce is looking at old love interests and her picture isn't part of the list, that grates me but i just guess her pic is too painful to look at and he doesn't have any in the house.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

Not too happy about that either. I think BB was a good promise but a so-so execution. Rachel was part of the latter.





But when 1) he was already Batman for a long while and 2) when he thought harvey could do a better job than Batman. Bruce thought Batman was not going to be necessary anymore.

i agree with the rachel part, i somewhat really didn't like this.

with regards to andrea, i think it really humanised bruce, alot of people would say that his ration to take an event that traumatised him as a child and to run with it is verging on insanity. his interaction with andrea and his ability to love and almost heal makes him human. plus it makes his descent into batman a dual-event mixed with a long investment steady fall of the mind body and soul, followed by a complete collaspe of the heart.

which is why the scene of the birth of batman is that bit more potent.

infact, till then he had been unable to strike fear into people, and simply putting on a costume wouldn't have done it, he needed that transaction and inteaction with andrea to sell it.

and the beautiful thing is that andrea is pretty much the same except for in this situation, she's proactive while bruce is reactive. BUT it's because of this, she can kill and he can't.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by November Rain

i agree with the rachel part, i somewhat really didn't like this.

Originally Posted by November Rain

with regards to andrea, i think it really humanised bruce, alot of people would say that his ration to take an event that traumatised him as a child and to run with it is verging on insanity. his interaction with andrea and his ability to love and almost heal makes him human. plus it makes his descent into batman a dual-event mixed with a long investment steady fall of the mind body and soul, followed by a complete collaspe of the heart.

Meh. Bruce's trauma is what makes him Batman, not some failed relationship. What humanizes Bruce is the fact that he is human.

I really hate this notion that a broken heart made Batman.

Originally Posted by November Rain

which is why the scene of the birth of batman is that bit more potent.

The scene was potent (and one of the few that i really liked as much as some of the movies) because of the music and atmosphere.

I don't feel it more potent if I think that Bruce was probably misty-eyed and holding his sobbing back because Andrea had left him.

Originally Posted by November Rain

infact, till then he had been unable to strike fear into people, and simply putting on a costume wouldn't have done it, he needed that transaction and inteaction with andrea to sell it.

And now Bruce needs a broken heart to know what fear is? Really, hate that concept.

Originally Posted by November Rain

and the beautiful thing is that andrea is pretty much the same except for in this situation, she's proactive while bruce is reactive. BUT it's because of this, she can kill and he can't.

It's an interesting parallel. But if we have to add the romantic angle in the Batman origin formula, then no thanks.

[November Rain]

well if anything was going to stop bruce becoming batman it was going to be finding some sort of happiness and in honesty, most of that is in finding true love.

I think a key point of it that i haven't brought up is that bruce understood love could have stopped him being batman, which is a key element because he tries to use that notion to stop andrea killing the joker at the end of phantasm and she is too far gone to understand.

as for the fear aspect, there's a reason the masking of batman is played directly after he finds out that beaumont has done a runner.

to be fair, i don't think andrea does too much to divert batman off his path, she is just a fork in the road that he doesn't end up taking but it's nice to know the fork was still there.

and bruce is shown to be anything but human for a large part of the dcau (if you take into account his bruce wayne persona in his youth was an act). the closest other thing he's come to showing is fear when fighting against kyoado-ken (sp?) and rage when tim is being tortured in return of the joker.

infact, isn't the reason that dick left him was because of his apparent inhumanity

don't get me wrong, most romances in superhero stories are completly convoluted but because there are hugh parallels between the characters and she's there at a pivotal time in his life and never shows up again, i think it works. unlike rachel who basically tells him to be batman and is a final reward for stopping being batman, boooo hiss....

[Fenrir]

Batman: You still listen to your dad's orders?
Andrea: The way I see it, the only one in this room being controlled by his parents is you.

Ouch.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Batman: You still listen to your dad's orders?
Andrea: The way I see it, the only one in this room being controlled by his parents is you.

Ouch.

That line was always a favorite. Selina Kyle eat your heart out.

[Two-Face]

One of the best Batman films I don't know why I don't own MOTP on DVD.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by November Rain

well if anything was going to stop bruce becoming batman it was going to be finding some sort of happiness and in honesty, most of that is in finding true love.

First of all, nothing HAS to stop Bruce from becoming Batman (a different thing is to be stopped after he becomes Batman).

And then, true love (as in a romance) is just a cliche. One that doesn't belong to Batman's origin. Other than Bruce's love for their aprents and vice versa.

Originally Posted by November Rain

I think a key point of it that i haven't brought up is that bruce understood love could have stopped him being batman, which is a key element because he tries to use that notion to stop andrea killing the joker at the end of phantasm and she is too far gone to understand.

Bruce understanding that killing is not the solution, because is what triggered the whole thing, is what he should have used to stop Andrea from killing. Bruce understoof that in BR (a franchise where he didn't have the no killing policy), BF (where he discourages Dick Grayson from killing) and of course Nolan's movies. A girl had nothing to do with it.

Bruce defining partially his Batman mission in true love is like having Jonathan Kent being killed in order to make Clark undertstand he should use his powers to fight crime. It's possible and it might work, but it doesn't belong there.

Originally Posted by November Rain

as for the fear aspect, there's a reason the masking of batman is played directly after he finds out that beaumont has done a runner.

The reason couldn't be any more wrong though.

Fear comes from the vision of the bat, that makes Bruce understand that criminals are superstitious.

Originally Posted by November Rain

to be fair, i don't think andrea does too much to divert batman off his path, she is just a fork in the road that he doesn't end up taking but it's nice to know the fork was still there.

No, it was nice to know Bruce's obsession comes from where it has always come: to bring justice to this world.

I measure Andrea's interference because of the results: Bruce wanted to quit his Batman mission before starting. I'd say that's enouygh diversion.

It's not nice to know everything depended on a girl.

Which is worse: Andrea didn't even do much, as you say. It's Bruce himself (!) who felt a girl was enough to stop him.

Originally Posted by November Rain

and bruce is shown to be anything but human for a large part of the dcau (if you take into account his bruce wayne persona in his youth was an act). the closest other thing he's come to showing is fear when fighting against kyoado-ken (sp?) and rage when tim is being tortured in return of the joker.

infact, isn't the reason that dick left him was because of his apparent inhumanity

And how is that a problem for the character? Bruce Wayne is supposed to be absorbed by his obsession. That's why he becomes Batman. As I told you, after some years of actually being and experimenting being Batman, then he can realize of his lack of humanity. But before?

Originally Posted by November Rain

don't get me wrong, most romances in superhero stories are completly convoluted but because there are hugh parallels between the characters and she's there at a pivotal time in his life and never shows up again, i think it works. unlike rachel who basically tells him to be batman and is a final reward for stopping being batman, boooo hiss....

A girl telling Bruce to become Batman is as bad as a girl stopping him of being Batman. Girls come and go, but Bruce is stronger than that.

[November Rain]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Batman: You still listen to your dad's orders?
Andrea: The way I see it, the only one in this room being controlled by his parents is you.

Ouch.

that would have even shut up justice lord batman.