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Old 06-02-2011, 11:00 AM   #576
sgaana
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

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Had to be invisible. If he were visible but in disguise, no way would SHIELD 1) allow him to get that far inside the base without raising a hell of a fuss, or 2) allow him to try and lift Mjolnir without a single word or glance in his general direction. I think the suit was just 'cause Loki's a fashionable son of a gun.
I've been going back and forth on this. I guess it depends on what kind of magic we're supposed to think Loki is using.

Invisibility is, I think, the simplest explanation. And honestly, I think it's the one that the GA is most likely to assume was the case. Therefore, if they had wanted the entire audience to get that he was doing something different, they would have had to explain it a bit more. They didn't, so... I think they were fine with the GA assuming he was just invisible. And I think you are right here, that the "trying to lift Mjolnir" bit is the best example of where everything is framed as if he's invisible.

A more complex explanation might be that he put a glamour on everyone, which I think seems reasonable as part of Loki's box of tricks.

To be clear, I don't think he was just in disguise; meaning, he just put on an Earth suit and bluffed his way in. Wearing the Earth clothes would have HAD to be accompanied by some magic to make the people he was meeting perceive him as someone who was "supposed to be there", and to perceive whatever he did as something he had a right to do. It would be similar to the Doctor's use of the psychic paper in the new series of Doctor Who -- it's not a complicated trick to make people think you are someone who ought to be there.

However, I think if that had been the intent, the movie would have needed to show us some little interaction between Loki and the SHIELD guys, to show them treating him as "someone who should be here". If that's a deleted bit that we get on the DVD later, fine; but it's not in the movie right now.

Another magical possibility would be... a glamour that just acts as, in effect, "just a hedge, citizen; move along". It wouldn't be Loki specifically tricking everyone into thinking he is someone he's not (a gov't VIP for example). It would just be making it so that everyone would perceive him as... not worth noticing. I'm trying and failing to come up with an example of this being done elsewhere, but I know I've encountered it. The only reason I consider it a possibility is that it would explain the suit, aside from Loki's vanity. To pull off that level of glamour, you would need to be dressed unremarkably for the setting.


... I'll tell you something that bugged me about that sequence -- and I apologize if this has been brought up and discussed elsewhere already, I'm still in the process of digging through everything here.

So, SHIELD has Thor as a prisoner. They're interested in who this guy is. Coulson is going to interrogate him. Why would they not be recording him in that room? Audio and visual, that is. Why not have a camera on him during the interrogation, so that SHIELD superiors, who are elsewhere, can also view it later?

This only bugged me because the first time I saw the scene, I thought that Loki's appearance, and thus the extended sequence of Thor "talking to nothing", was going to factor into SHIELD's assessment of him. "We left him alone in the room and he had a whole conversation with thin air". And thus, I thought that was part of Loki's plan -- to appear to his brother, but invisibly, so as to make Thor look crazy. (And I hadn't even read the Ultimates series at that point!) I figured it was going someplace, and then it seemed not to, as it wasn't brought up by anyone. Yet, I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't be recording the interrogation.

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Old 06-02-2011, 11:10 AM   #577
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

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The race is established as being quite nasty, though. If the Frost Giants had been obliterated I doubt anybody would've missed them. And the Destroyer was just sent to kill Thor, as I recall.
Actually, I noticed even on first viewing that when Loki sends the Destroyer after Thor, his final words are, "destroy everything". And I leaned over to the friend sitting next to me, and said, "well, that's rather open-ended, isn't it?"

It kind of struck me that the point there was that Loki was lashing out indiscriminately... perhaps much as Thor had early on (when he became so distracted in his battle with the Frost Giants that he failed to really notice the collateral damage to his friends... let alone the wider implications).

I mean, if the Destroyer was JUST sent to kill Thor, and if the Destroyer is basically indestructible, then all it had to do was land, walk to where ever Thor was, and blast him. If it was only targeted at Thor, there was no reason for it to blast all the SHIELD guys just because they started talking to it, and there was no reason for it to be destroying the town as it went, either. (Which it was doing long before the Asgardians showed themselves and tried to stop it.) Considering the kind of tech it is, if ALL Loki had wanted it to do was kill his brother, it could have been much more surgical about it. And it still would have come across as an object lesson to the mortals, through its implacability and unstoppability.

You could argue that Loki had it go on the offensive immediately because he knew the other Asgardians were on the scene. (And he was clearly following its actions and directing it to some extent.) But even that doesn't really make sense when you consider that Loki should have known as well as anyone that Sif and the Warriors Three were really not enough to stand up to the Destroyer, nor would they have been enough to prevent it from killing Thor, even if he hadn't gotten them to back down.

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Old 06-02-2011, 11:57 AM   #578
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

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It's still genocide, though. The Frost Giants were not sympathetic, I agree, but I think Loki looking for genocide against the wishes of Odin establishes a moral compass that starts pointing toward evil.
I don't think the rules of genocide apply to unpleasant species. If Frodo and friends had killed all the orcs of Middle Earth, for example, that wouldnt've been seen as a bad thing, I'm sure. When you're dealing with creatures like Frost Giants, who have been depicted all the way through the film as being evil, you can't just assume that killing them would be bad. You have to give the audience some reason to care that a genocide is about to take place.

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Wow, am I glad you're not ruling a country!!!
So am I.

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Old 06-02-2011, 12:01 PM   #579
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

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Actually, I noticed even on first viewing that when Loki sends the Destroyer after Thor, his final words are, "destroy everything". And I leaned over to the friend sitting next to me, and said, "well, that's rather open-ended, isn't it?"

It kind of struck me that the point there was that Loki was lashing out indiscriminately... perhaps much as Thor had early on (when he became so distracted in his battle with the Frost Giants that he failed to really notice the collateral damage to his friends... let alone the wider implications).

I mean, if the Destroyer was JUST sent to kill Thor, and if the Destroyer is basically indestructible, then all it had to do was land, walk to where ever Thor was, and blast him. If it was only targeted at Thor, there was no reason for it to blast all the SHIELD guys just because they started talking to it, and there was no reason for it to be destroying the town as it went, either. (Which it was doing long before the Asgardians showed themselves and tried to stop it.) Considering the kind of tech it is, if ALL Loki had wanted it to do was kill his brother, it could have been much more surgical about it. And it still would have come across as an object lesson to the mortals, through its implacability and unstoppability.

You could argue that Loki had it go on the offensive immediately because he knew the other Asgardians were on the scene. (And he was clearly following its actions and directing it to some extent.) But even that doesn't really make sense when you consider that Loki should have known as well as anyone that Sif and the Warriors Three were really not enough to stand up to the Destroyer, nor would they have been enough to prevent it from killing Thor, even if he hadn't gotten them to back down.
Interesting point, though I'm not sure it would've continued destroying things after killing Thor.

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Old 06-02-2011, 12:28 PM   #580
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Interesting point, though I'm not sure it would've continued destroying things after killing Thor.
I see what you mean. I think Thor himself was sort of the "end game" for the Destroyer. But I honestly wonder if it would have kept going in order to try to destroy Sif and the Warriors Three. In a "cover up your tracks" kind of way.

Loki knows that they have left Asgard, before he sends the Destroyer off. In fact, it seems like the main reason he sends the Destroyer is because he assumes they went to Earth to fetch Thor back. (I can't recall right at the moment whether he knows for sure where they went, or if he only knows that they went somewhere, and would be assuming the rest. It seems like such a safe guess for him to make, though.)

The implication being that if they hadn't gone, Loki would have proceeded with his plans feeling sure that his lies to Thor in the interrogation room would be sufficient to take care of the problem of his brother. But once the four warriors go... Loki knows they can tell Thor the truth about Odin (although they can't necessarily contradict Loki's claims about Frigga's feelings, nor about Thor's exile being the price of truce with the Frost Giants).

That's the point at which Loki just sends the Destroyer, with, as I say, the final instruction to "destroy everything". I'm thinking the "everything" included Sif and the Warriors Three, too, now that I mull it over. First, because he knows now that they have willingly betrayed him and won't take his orders as king. Second, because he can't afford to have them come back and deliver a story to Odin and Frigga that contradicts what Loki plans to claim. Yet if they talk to Thor, Loki has to know his lies to Thor will come out. So even if the Destroyer kills Thor, they can come back and tell Odin and Frigga that Thor told them that Loki came and lied to him.

Their word against Loki's, but... why take the risk when it's easier to let the Destroyer take care of all of them?

To be clear... I also think that the way the scene actually played itself out (with Thor's "last words" to Loki through the Destroyer), perhaps Loki would have had it stop there. Not sure. I don't think Thor's appeal to Loki, and Loki's own reaction to it, figured into his plans originally.

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Old 06-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #581
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

What the ironic thing about Loki sending the destroyer was , if he never done it Thor would not have gotten his powers back and still be mortal. So even when Sif and the warriors three told Thor the truth he would not been able to do anything about it .

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Old 06-02-2011, 05:21 PM   #582
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

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I don't think the rules of genocide apply to unpleasant species. If Frodo and friends had killed all the orcs of Middle Earth, for example, that wouldnt've been seen as a bad thing, I'm sure. When you're dealing with creatures like Frost Giants, who have been depicted all the way through the film as being evil, you can't just assume that killing them would be bad. You have to give the audience some reason to care that a genocide is about to take place.
It's still genocide, anyway you slice it. I don't think people tend to be for that sort of thing if it goes against the moral compass of characters in a film, like Thor or Odin.

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Old 08-21-2011, 09:50 PM   #583
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston is Loki

Tom Hiddleston....*drool, drool, drool* Okay...I'm alright. I apologize for my fangirlish behavior. Now I forgot what I wanted to say.

*edit* I just thought of what I wanted to say! As much as I love Tom Hiddleston's portrayal of Loki I've been introspecting about it. You know how Odin said that Thor was a vain, childish boy before banishing him? I think in the end he should amend that statement and tell Loki that he was wrong and that Loki himself was really the vain, childish boy.

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Actually, I noticed even on first viewing that when Loki sends the Destroyer after Thor, his final words are, "destroy everything". And I leaned over to the friend sitting next to me, and said, "well, that's rather open-ended, isn't it?"
I think considering this is Loki we're talking about, he'd probably be enjoying all the chaos that Destroyer could cause by his rather vague order. I'd think he'd want to see how humanity would handle a rampaging robot without the help of Thor and the Asgardians. He does the whole genocidal thing for fun.

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I don't think the rules of genocide apply to unpleasant species.
So humanity needs to be eliminated immediately?


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