Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin!

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

But honestly, if Black's not a fan of the character don't force him to use it. We don't need another Spider-Man 3 situation here. I'd really be happy if we could get Madam Masque at least.

See, that's what I'm worried about. Even if I do want Mandarin in the film and treated respectfully I don't want the studio to force Black's hand because it's not likely to go well. Either we could end up with the film being compromised for it or Black could end up leaving and we have to make do with someone less talented.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

See, that's what I'm worried about. Even if I do want Mandarin in the film and treated respectfully I don't want the studio to force Black's hand because it's not likely to go well. Either we could end up with the film being compromised for it or Black could end up leaving and we have to make do with someone less talented.

Exactly.
Raimi didn't want Venom in Spidey 3, but Marvel apparently forced him to include the character, and we wound up with a crappy film. If Black doesn't want Mandarin and has someone else in mind, he should be given that leeway.

[Shadowlord X]

I'll resoundingly echo the agreements here. We definitely do not want a SM3 debacle.

If S.Black does not want to do it don't force it upon him. If then MARVEL STUDIOS is determined to portray the Mandarin let it be in IM4 with another director. I do think IRON MAN fans deserve to get their characters arch-nemesis portrayed cinematically.

Portraying the Mandarin as not a racist caricature is very easy.

He could be portrayed as a shrewd businessman who was nicknamed the Mandarin because of his tendency to dress in traditional Chinese garb at certain functions.

[tamron]

Originally Posted by Shadowlord X

He could be portrayed as a shrewd businessman who was nicknamed the Mandarin because of his tendency to dress in traditional Chinese garb at certain functions.

He doesn't even have to go that far. He could just be a staunch traditionalist in regards to decorum and manners and be given that as a derisive nickname, like why Harvey Dent was called Two-Face even before the accident in TDK.

Thinking further on it, the Iron Man movies have purposely underplayed the costumed monikers anyway.

The press named Iron Man. Stane told Tony they were 'Iron Mongers'. Tony asked Rhodey if he wanted to 'be the war machine'. I don't think Vanko is ever explicitly called 'Whiplash', though I could be wrong on that.

So the Mandarin moniker doesn't even have to be emphasized or even used, really. If he's Asian, and the leader of the 10 Rings, we know who he is even if they don't say it.

[TheVileOne]

Actually Sony and Avi Arad that forced Venom into Spider-Man 3. I mean, to everyone's credit, fans and audiences basically DEMANDED Venom.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

Actually Sony and Avi Arad that forced Venom into Spider-Man 3. I mean, to everyone's credit, fans and audiences basically DEMANDED Venom.

And Raimi didn't like the character or understand the character, so we got a crappy tack-on to a movie about a villain Raimi *did* know and care about.

But I hardly think the fan-noise for Mandarin comes anywhere *close* to the demand for Venom in the movies. Where is the "fanbase" for Mandarin? Ever see anybody dress up as Mandarin for a Comic-Con? Ever see tons of fan-art and fan-fic for Mandy? The only people I see "demanding" Mandarin for IM3 are a handful of whiny SHH/CBM fanboys who got their feelings hurt when Shane Black called the character (correctly) a racist caricature.

[TheVileOne]

LOL whatever man. I don't see anyone whining or crying over it. I'm a Mandarin fan and I've liked the character in Iron Man stories for a long time. I'm sure I could find fan art featuring Mandarin if I actually looked for it.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Short answer: probably not the right time.

*Edit: longer answer: keep in mind that the ten rings are already out there. We've already seen two of them, on the fingers of Raza and Obadiah Stane. If those rings had any powers at all, Raza and Stane would have used them.

And if Mandarin is the mysterious shadow broker behind the Ten Rings terrorist organization, he clearly has no interest in gathering those ten physical rings together himself, since at least two people are *known* to be wearing them.

And, if the ten rings are already here and in possession of Mandarin and/or the Ten Rings terrorist group, then Fin Fang Foom becomes redundant and is no longer needed in the Marvel Film Universe. (Which would shoot down the popular internet theory that the Avengers' "leviathan" is, in fact, Foom.)

I think it could work to say that the rings Raza, Stane, and Hammer were wearing were the Mandarin's actual rings. It would make sense that they couldn't use their power as they didn't have the psychic connection to them that the Mandarin does. Plus, I think it would sense for the Mandarin to hand them off to his lieutenants, in order for them to serve as his "eyes" so to speak to ensure nobody double crossed him as he'd be ready for it.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Chris B

I think it could work to say that the rings Raza, Stane, and Hammer were wearing were the Mandarin's actual rings. It would make sense that they couldn't use their power as they didn't have the psychic connection to them that the Mandarin does. Plus, I think it would sense for the Mandarin to hand them off to his lieutenants, in order for them to serve as his "eyes" so to speak to ensure nobody double crossed him as he'd be ready for it.

But what would be the point of handing off some rings that nobody but you can use?
Obviously, you'd want to keep that bling-bling for yourself, where they can be put to good use. They're wasted on henchies. And what happens if Mandy wants, say, to chuck a fireball or two, and that particular ring is on Raza's finger out in East Lower Afghanistan, and he's gotta wait on FedEx to pick it up.....?

[terry78]

Basically Mandarin is the name his underlings in the Ten Rings refer to him as, because most of them probably have never even met or know who he is in real life.

[Iron_Stark]

Mandarin needs to be portrayed the way the Knaufs did and how Fraction is doing during this storyline.

I mean to put bombs inside Ezekiel Stane and the rest of the henchmen like Blizzard and Living Lazer and blow them up if they screw up a mission, can't get anymore evil and badass than that.

[Steve Holt]

Anyone see the a-team movie? how they had no idea who the "Arab" was and just refered to him as such.
Hpw bout in IM3 they hint at him like that, SHIELD coming to tony with info, in the backround in survailance footage/photos, heard on recordings speaking Mandarin, hence they refer to him as such.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Steve Holt

Anyone see the a-team movie? how they had no idea who the "Arab" was and just refered to him as such.
Hpw bout in IM3 they hint at him like that, SHIELD coming to tony with info, in the backround in survailance footage/photos, heard on recordings speaking Mandarin, hence they refer to him as such.

Yeah, but they already did the "behind-the-scenes shadow master" bit with Mandarin in IM1. Nobody wants to see that schtick dragged out through another movie. We want to either SEE Mandarin in action in IM3, or just leave him out completely and focus on another villain(s). No more teasing.

[Steve Holt]

well they can't just dive right in and have him be in front of you, you still have to set it up.
it could be at the beginning of the movie and reveal him later in the movie

[Kurosawa]

If the director thinks Iron Man's greatest enemy is a "racist characture", then he doesn't need to use the Mandarin-and he also basically called Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Don Heck racists.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

If the director thinks Iron Man's greatest enemy is a "racist characture", then he doesn't need to use the Mandarin-and he also basically called Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Don Heck racists.

There's blatant racism, and there's latent racism. Lee and Kirby were definitely not blatantly racist, and far from it; but their early 60s approach to ethnic stereotypes was definitely latent. Asians were always of the Yellow Peril variety; Russians were always of the Red Scare variety; etc.

The 70s brought a different version of latent racism, too: exploitation. In order to make up for the stereotyping of the previous decades/centuries, Marvel (like Hollywood) swung the pendulum to the other extreme and turned to blaxploitation, chop-sockey Asians, and Native American pseudo-mysticism.

Regardless of how Mandarin has been presented over the decades, it's always been as an ethnic stereotype: Fu Manchu yellow peril, kung fu mystic, or modern Asian crime boss. He's an offensive stereotype, period --- always has been, always will be.

[chamber-music]

Manadarin is supposed to be half Asian anyway as his mothers British. I'm not for forcing Shane Black to use the character but if he has a problem with how his portrayed in the comics then reinvent him for the film.

Plenty of Comic book movies change how villains are from the comics for better or for worst.

[Kurosawa]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

There's blatant racism, and there's latent racism. Lee and Kirby were definitely not blatantly racist, and far from it; but their early 60s approach to ethnic stereotypes was definitely latent. Asians were always of the Yellow Peril variety; Russians were always of the Red Scare variety; etc.

The 70s brought a different version of latent racism, too: exploitation. In order to make up for the stereotyping of the previous decades/centuries, Marvel (like Hollywood) swung the pendulum to the other extreme and turned to blaxploitation, chop-sockey Asians, and Native American pseudo-mysticism.

Regardless of how Mandarin has been presented over the decades, it's always been as an ethnic stereotype: Fu Manchu yellow peril, kung fu mystic, or modern Asian crime boss. He's an offensive stereotype, period --- always has been, always will be.

I feel that's lame PC **** to be honest. But like Chris Nolan with Robin, I wouldn't want Shane Black to use Mandarin since he doesn't like the character. Iron Man has the luxury of a good rogues gallery, and the next Iron Man director can use Mandarin.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So, if we arent getting Mandarin, which I am sorely dissapointed about, has Black mentioned any other villains he is considering?

[HighFivingMF]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

So, if we arent getting Mandarin, which I am sorely dissapointed about, has Black mentioned any other villains he is considering?

Black hasn't mentioned anyone himself. But the creator of The Ghost mentioned he was being considered.

[Sebastos]

Ghost would be a good pick.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

So, if we arent getting Mandarin, which I am sorely dissapointed about, has Black mentioned any other villains he is considering?

Have they confirmed Mandarin is out?

[Sebastos]

I believe Shane stated Mandarin wouldn't be the villain.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by HighFivingMF

Black hasn't mentioned anyone himself. But the creator of The Ghost mentioned he was being considered.

Hhhmmm, not that familiar with the character, will have to check him out.

[DrCosmic]

If they can fuse Titanium Man, Crimson Dynamo, Blacklash and Whiplash...

Then I think they can make Ghost an asian connected with the ten rings. Bring that storyline around. Ghost's story is pretty good as it is, hotshot programmer genius "The next tony stark", learned to do great things with tech, lost something, then became obsessed, fusing with his tech to become just an all around badash before going bad and trying to take out corporate types... types like Tony Stark. In fact, start him out in Stark's company, let him go bad from inside, steal the Stealth armor to make the Ghost Armor. Implement holographic controls like Tony has in his lab to simulate magical runs and stuff. Hacks anything at a moment's notice, orbital bombardment sattelites, explosive mechanisms in cars. Makes it look like 'magic' in a way.

Let Ultimo be the first problem of the film, and later find out that the Ghost kid was the one who activated him in the first place. Extra points for bringing back Raza, Stane's son, Hammer and 6 generic multicultural baddies as the other ten rings members.