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Old 11-08-2011, 09:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by jmc View Post
The reason no reference is made in TDK to the events of Begins is because the story is self contained and the events of the previous film are irrelevant, even though it's a sequel. Rises will more than likely be the same.
Impossible. Batman is now a wanted fugitive for several murders because of Harvey Dent including the murder of Dent himself, who was broken by the Joker. The reason Batman took the blame is because "The Joker cannot win". He didn't want to let Joker break Gotham's spirit by letting them see what their precious White Knight Dent had turned into.

We've seen on set pics of Bane tearing up photos of Dent in public. We've seen that Blackgate prison was dedicated to Harvey Dent. We know they've filmed a massive chase scene between hordes of Cops and Batman on his BatPod. That's just the stuff people managed to snag on the days there was filming in public. Who knows what else is in the movie.

The events of Begins had no such major repercussions. I don't know why you're saying there was no reference to the events of Begins in TDK. There was several. Just none of them involved Ra's:

- Scarecrow
- Falcone being in Arkham
- Wayne Manor being rebuilt
- Bruce talking to Rachel about when she told him she would wait for him when he doesn't need to be Batman any more

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Last edited by The Joker; 11-08-2011 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:50 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Add to that list:

- copycats; " hopes on the street "
- escalation ( freaks: Joker )
- joker hiring Arkham's psychos who busted out
- mob having no answer to Batman and hiring Joker

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Old 11-08-2011, 10:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
The events of Begins had no such major repercussions. I don't know why you're saying there was no reference to the events of Begins in TDK. There was several. Just none of them involved Ra's:

- Scarecrow
- Falcone being in Arkham
- Wayne Manor being rebuilt
- Bruce talking to Rachel about when she told him she would wait for him when he doesn't need to be Batman any more
Well, there is sort of a reference to Ra's. Bruce quoted him when he mentioned criminals not being complicated.

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Old 11-08-2011, 10:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by AnneFan View Post
This I agree with. Joker is finished with, and his legacy is all that's left. Enter Bane.
Exactly. Enough of the Joker. I'm sure they'll mention the same way Dent mentions Falcone in TDK or the way Bane has Dent's photos, but nothing more. And that's enough.

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Old 11-08-2011, 10:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Joker was a massive presence in Gotham. He will get lots of mentions. So will Dent.

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Old 11-08-2011, 11:32 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Bat-Mite View Post
Well, there is sort of a reference to Ra's. Bruce quoted him when he mentioned criminals not being complicated.
Yes, showing that Bruce was still holding on to some of his former mentor's teaching.

The events in Begins are in no way irrelevant to the plot in TDK or for that matter, TDKRises. The films are they're own story arcs with some uniqueness in structure, but to understand the full scope one must take into account them as parts of a whole as well.

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Old 11-08-2011, 11:53 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Impossible. Batman is now a wanted fugitive for several murders because of Harvey Dent including the murder of Dent himself, who was broken by the Joker. The reason Batman took the blame is because "The Joker cannot win". He didn't want to let Joker break Gotham's spirit by letting them see what their precious White Knight Dent had turned into.

We've seen on set pics of Bane tearing up photos of Dent in public. We've seen that Blackgate prison was dedicated to Harvey Dent. We know they've filmed a massive chase scene between hordes of Cops and Batman on his BatPod. That's just the stuff people managed to snag on the days there was filming in public. Who knows what else is in the movie.
All of which we don't know the context of. Pictures paint a thousand words so no it's not impossible for the events of TDK to not play a part in driving Rises. The only thing left unfinished is Batman being on the run which is comparable to the Joker card reveal in Begins.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
The events of Begins had no such major repercussions. I don't know why you're saying there was no reference to the events of Begins in TDK. There was several. Just none of them involved Ra's:

- Scarecrow
- Falcone being in Arkham
- Wayne Manor being rebuilt
- Bruce talking to Rachel about when she told him she would wait for him when he doesn't need to be Batman any more
I clearly meant the events weren't the driving narrative for the sequel's story. TDK works independently, Rises will more than likely be the same. The question is will joker be mentioned? My answer is: does it matter?


Last edited by jmc; 11-09-2011 at 12:00 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Unless there's an Arkham breakout, there's no problem story wise with Joker being absent.
I think that's why they use Blackgate in this movie as the breakout instead of Arkham like they did in Knightfall. I would suspect if Ledger was still alive we would have seen a bit of Scarecrow/Joker team up with them kidnapping the mayor.
But I truly hope they mention him.

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:30 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

My thoughts:

I think Joker will get a mention, however, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he DOESN'T GET MENTIONED AT ALL.

Why?

Because after the events of TDK, I think it's more important that Harvey Dent is mentioned and recollected more so than the Joker. Batman-as-a-fugitive for Harvey's crimes is a plot hole that's not tied up. TDKR has to fix this; TDKR can decide to not mention the Joker and be completely fine.

Based on spoilers and speculation, I predict Ras, Dent, Bruce's parents, Scarecrow, Rachel, Bruce's past, will all get mention... but the Joker is a 50/50 shot. Based on the news/spy pics/etc, I don't see a necessity to bring up the Joker.

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:38 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

It wasn't a plot hole, it was left open.

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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I think that's why they use Blackgate in this movie as the breakout instead of Arkham like they did in Knightfall. I would suspect if Ledger was still alive we would have seen a bit of Scarecrow/Joker team up with them kidnapping the mayor.
But I truly hope they mention him.
i think its in Bane's interest that he breaks out ciriminals that will folow him and listen to him. breaking out Arkham's freaks wouldnt be good for him. they would run away or do some crazy stuff. Bane needs a sane and not an insane army. IMO

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Old 11-09-2011, 06:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

The character arc is finished, the character is not in the movie, what would be the point of talking about him?

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Old 11-09-2011, 06:29 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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But I truly hope they mention him.
Why?

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Old 11-09-2011, 06:42 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

The Joker has to be mentioned, even just in passing for a second. It's just a simple logical conclusion of narrative. Even if it's for one second, one remark, it will happen. There's one entire movie that more or less focuses on him and his wave of terror, which granted in movie time is now "contained", but considering what we've been seeing with the jailbreak, Bane exposing Harvey Dent, etc, it is just straight up ridiculous to think that they won't at least once mention the significance of maintaining the Joker's incarceration. Bane exposing Dent especially will most likely bring up some mention of him between Batman and Gordon perhaps - it's what the whole TDK-ending soliloquy is based on. The kind of anxiety for Gordon/Batman trying to keep Joker contained is something that DOES exist in those characters' minds, or at least should. There would be a severe lapse in storytelling if he's not mentioned at least once. I mean what do you want to bet Rachel being mentioned? I'd say it's highly likely, but considering most fans really detest her character (let's be honest huh?), the Joker REALLY had a lot to do with Batman's development. The whole reason he'll be "underground" part of this movie is because of the Joker.

He'll be mentioned, just watch

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Old 11-09-2011, 06:50 AM   #40
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I wouldn't be surprised if he's not mentioned at all.



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Originally Posted by Boom View Post
I don't necessarily see a problem here.

The Joker's story arc was completed in TDK, and he's behind bars.
Wasn't he also behind bars at some point half movie into TDK?

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Old 11-09-2011, 07:03 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Wasn't he also behind bars at some point half movie into TDK?
He was only in the MCU for like 10 minutes, and only because it allowed him to get hold of Lau.

As far as Arkham goes, isn't Arkham out of commission?
  • At the end of Begins, Gordon says the Narrows is lost. Arkham's in the Narrows.
  • Melvin White, whichever Joker goon he was, had been in Arkham twice already. Point is he was on the loose as a goon in TDK, conceivably because Arkham is still out of commission
  • Blackgate is opened after TDK but before TDKR, most likely houses both regular inmates and Arkham-worthy crazies
However...


Thus, it's not unexpected someone, ANYONE, would at some point be like "SH**!!!" about what the Joker's current status is

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Old 11-09-2011, 07:34 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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I don't necessarily see a problem here.

The Joker's story arc was completed in TDK, and he's behind bars.
He would have escaped again Boom, if Ledger was alive I believe Joker would been in the third movie maybe not big role but decent screen time would been appropriate.

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Old 11-09-2011, 07:53 AM   #43
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I also believe, had he lived, Joker would have played a role in TDKR. Not instead of Bane necessarily, but perhaps a supporting role. There isn't really any space for him in this film, and he's so dominant that perhaps it would have been better to leave the character out, even if Ledger was still alive. Did I hear correctly that he signed on for an optional sequel? Anyway, I can imagine Joker sitting in arkham or prison feeling alittle left out.

Also, if Arkham is out of commission, then he'd be in prison somewhere in Gotham. In this case, Bane surely, surely would have released all prisoners during the city takeover. It's just logical to presume he's escaped, even if Arkham is still in commission(because Bane would have released them aswell, in all probability).

I don't think he needs a mention particularly, but i'd be happy if he was. If we get a quick shot of inmates being released, i'd love to see one brief moment of a prison door opening, and a dark, silhouetted Joker sitting in a chair, head down, then lifting his head. Of course, it'd be lit so that we could only guess who it was, but enough for the fans to recognise. That'd be cool

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Old 11-09-2011, 09:17 AM   #44
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

"When the chips are down, these 'civilised' people will eat each other"

Then the riots and other crazy stuff happens. That could be taken as a very subtle reference to Joker's statement.

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Old 11-09-2011, 09:20 AM   #45
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I'm assuming some of these Blackgate prisoners are the ones Harvey Dent put away yea?

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Old 11-09-2011, 09:42 AM   #46
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

If he is mentioned I imagine it will be in the vein of a reflective conversation between Batman and Gordon as they prepare to take down Bane.

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Old 11-09-2011, 09:46 AM   #47
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

i agree. the name will be used in a conversation with Batman and Gordon or when Bane talks.

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Old 11-09-2011, 10:18 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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All of which we don't know the context of.
Oh come on. What possible conclusion can you arrive to from seeing Batman being chased by hordes of Cops after watching TDK?

Quote:
Pictures paint a thousand words so no it's not impossible for the events of TDK to not play a part in driving Rises.
It's not? Batman being chased for murders he didn't commit could not be a significant plot in TDKR? You honestly believe that Nolan would sweep such a thing under the rug?

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The only thing left unfinished is Batman being on the run which is comparable to the Joker card reveal in Begins.
Say what? Batman being handed a Joker card is the same as the batsignal being smashed and Batman being chased by Gordon's cops for several murders?

Your analogy doesn't even make any sense. The Joker card was a prelude to the Joker, who played a massive part in the sequel. The Joker card was not a left over plot point from anything in the main Begins plot.

Quote:
I clearly meant the events weren't the driving narrative for the sequel's story. TDK works independently, Rises will more than likely be the same.
Because the events of Begins and the events of TDK are apples and oranges. There was nothing left over to deal with from the LOS plot in Begins apart from Crane still being on the loose.

TDK left Gotham thinking Batman killed their precious Harvey Dent and several other people. Gordon smashed the batsignal. Batman was seen being chased by a bunch of Cops.

You see TDKR going independently without addressing any of that in any significant way, even though we've seen them film a massive chase scene between Batman and the Cops, and Bane publicly ripping up photos of Dent?

I clearly give Nolan more credit than you do for telling a story.

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The question is will joker be mentioned? My answer is: does it matter?
It's not going to ruin the movie by any stretch of the imagination if he's not. But would it be a nice touch? Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Clay View Post
As far as Arkham goes, isn't Arkham out of commission?

At the end of Begins, Gordon says the Narrows is lost. Arkham's in the Narrows.
It can't be. Dent mentioned Falcone still being in Arkham which is why Maroni stepped up to take over his empire.

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Last edited by The Joker; 11-09-2011 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:22 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I always felt (and justifiably so, seeing as Nolan has stated so in interviews) that each film tries incredibly hard to be it's own film, meaning plot, theme and even visual style differ in each film and there is little to no reliance on previous plotlines to fully enjoy the film. I'd expect maybe a mention or two about the jokers actions and the aftermath, but i seriously doubt they'd linger too much on the joker outside a mere 3-5 second mention.

I wouldn't even want anything more than that.

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Old 11-09-2011, 10:26 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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He was only in the MCU for like 10 minutes,
My point exactly. Jail does not stop Joker.

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and only because it allowed him to get hold of Lau.
As we know LATER.

What makes sure that last time he didn't have any ulterior motivation/plan.

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