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Old 11-15-2011, 01:23 PM   #976
hopefuldreamer
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

Hey i'm in the same boat as you, only started really reading comics the last couple of years, and never followed current comic chronology at all, but I have been since the new 52 reboot cause it seemed like the perfect place to start

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 11-15-2011, 01:43 PM   #977
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I would pick up comics from time to time when I was younger, but I didn't get into it really until high school. I was always a superhero fan though.

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Old 11-15-2011, 01:47 PM   #978
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Same here. I just started getting back into it. I've always found LCS rather intimidating (and somewhat unwelcoming) but I've always been a fan of the characters.

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Old 11-15-2011, 01:49 PM   #979
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I really hope that MOS's characterizations end up being really similar to Morrison's in Action Comics because, in particular, I am loving the new Clark Kent. He's an assertive, take charge journalist fighting for social justice but still totally believable as a nerd who is very different from Superman. I think it's a great update of the classic Clark Kent persona that incorporates the good parts of the post-crisis interpretations. I love the way he stands up to the corrupt police in Action Comics # 3, but still looks like a complete dork doing so.
The social justice stuff is a bit annoying. I don't care for politics in comics.

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Old 11-15-2011, 02:14 PM   #980
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Eh, it's more than the social injustice stuff that is drawing me in. It's the passion, intensity, and raw emotion. Superman is rougher and tougher, but he's also smiling and having fun. This Superman doesn't have a stick up his ass. "Oh, I must be deadly serious and not look like I'm enjoying myself ever".

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Old 11-15-2011, 03:00 PM   #981
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I'm an endangered species; I don't own a computer, ipad, whatever technological device kids use today...I spend my days at a "cybercafe" renting computers and visiting these forums...I live a lonely, sad life (that is, whenever I'm not out there partying like a rockstar with my smoking hot girlfriend ) sad...sad life, indeed....

Ehmm...the point is...I don't do technology, I own a 1998 cell phone and I love comic books; can anyone help me??


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Old 11-15-2011, 03:05 PM   #982
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In that case, you have two options:

Buy a map, walk to your nearest CS.

Use the PC/Mac/iPad you're on now, go to the DC website and make some subscriptions.

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Old 11-15-2011, 05:58 PM   #983
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I would pick up comics from time to time when I was younger, but I didn't get into it really until high school. I was always a superhero fan though.
Actually yeah, I have a bunch of random comics I picked up when I was going to college in a town that actually had a comic book shop (my town doesn't). Few issues of Allstar, Lex Luthor Man of Steel, Astonishing X-men, Ultimate Spiderman etc.

I'm so enjoying really going into depth with Superman tho. I've been a Superman fan my entire life, but I feel like i'm understanding him better every day.

Just in the last two years i've read - Birthright, For Tomorrow, For all Seasons, Man of Steel, 3-2-1 Action, Kryptonite, Kingdom Come, Red Son, All Star Superman, Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow and the first three editions of The Superman Chronicles.

That may not seem like a lot to some, but in between two jobs, a good few TV shows I follow, watching the latest movies... and I have an actual social life! It's a lot to fit in.

It's awesome tho, because the more I read, the more exciting Superman as a character is, and the more exciting any new projects like MOS become, because you can see there are so many options of how they could handle it, what they could bring in, what sort of storylines and characterisations you can include.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:14 PM   #984
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A little bit food for thought, Superman analyzed through the Jungian theories:

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My presentation was originally going to display the parallels between Jung’s theories, as presented in his book Man and his Symbols, and the lives of an array of superheroes, both male and female. However, after starting to research the superheroes, I decided to focus on one of the most well-known: Superman himself. I made this decision because I felt the class would be most familiar with Superman and therefore the Jung’s theories would make more sense in the application.

One of the most prominent aspects of Superman is the diamond-shaped emblem featuring an “S” on the interior. Whether standing alone, or as seen on his cape, this is the universal symbol for Superman. As Jung describes, symbols not only represent something, but also are connotations with a deeper meaning. Often times, the symbol is used to represent something that cannot easily be grasped. In the case of Superman, the diamond-shaped emblem represents more than just the man. It is used to represent the doer of good and the corrector of evil. As Superman himself said, “I’m here to fight for truth, justice, and the American way!” What the symbol represents goes deeper than the superficiality of a mere man.

Another aspect of Superman is his duality. As a day job, he is known as Clark Kent, a reporter working with Lois Lane for the Daily Planet. However, when duty calls, Superman emerges from Clark Kent. According to Carl Jung, Superman/Clark Kent suffers from the common dissociation. His “conscious” persona is the Clark Kent piece. This side lives a life that is a farce. He uses it merely to conceal his identity so he can save the world. His “unconscious” persona is the piece that is Superman. He cannot deny his powers and moral obligations, even if it interferes with his conscious, Clark Kent. This part of his personality reflects his true self and his true nature.

A perfect example of dissociation as applied to Superman/Clark Kent is apparent in his interaction with Lois Lane. As Clark Kent, he is capable of having a legitimate relationship with fellow reporter, Lois Lane. However, when appearing as Clark Kent, no affections are reciprocated. On the flip side, Superman cannot have a legitimate relationship with Lois Lane; it would endanger not only her, but his duty and himself. Unfortunately, it is only when Superman has surfaced that Lois Lane’s affections surface as well.

Another of Carl Jung’s theories revolves around the concept of an archetype. According to Jung, an archetype is a tendency in the way the mind thinks that is found in all people. Though the details may vary, the essence is the same. The concept of a universal hero is epitomized in Superman. In this archetype, a man gets involved in a huge, nail-biting, on the edge of your seat battle in order to do away with a particular evil to save himself, his people, and/or the world. Each time, he must come close to losing, though you always know that everything will be okay in the end.


At one point during the conclusion of my presentation, someone in the class made a comment referencing Superman’s self-proclaimed duty: I’m here to fight for truth, justice, and the American way. Though the question asked was vague, the emphasis was on the American way and how Superman would be reflected differently in other areas of the world. In response, I referred to Jung’s description of an archetype. He emphasizes that though the details may vary, the essence remains the same. This would appear to mean that in the case of Superman, the concept of Superman is an archetype found worldwide of a man fighting against evil. It is not significant if he wears his underwear under his spandex tights or over; the essence of the archetype remains the same.

One of the less prominent theories of Jung is the concept of inexorable opposites. He briefly describes how humans have a tendency to divide things into categories of opposites, such as day or night and happy or sad. This concept is evident in Superman’s world. He is engaged in a constant battle of good verse evil and must be able to categorize everything as one or the other. In many cases, Superman represents the good and an enemy such as Lex Luther represents the evil.

Overall, the presentation went mostly as planned, though slightly on the short side Only the one question was asked as mentioned above. There was much discussion that followed on comparing comics, television series, and different medias as they pertained to Superman. A brief discussion also followed that focused on how Jung could be nearly identically applied to Spiderman, as featured in the latest movie.
http://socyberty.com/philosophy/phil...at-superman/2/

Interesting, although I do not agree 100%, but then again I am not an expert when it comes to Jung. And I don't know exactly about which Superman incarnation the author is talking about.

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Old 11-15-2011, 06:29 PM   #985
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Actually yeah, I have a bunch of random comics I picked up when I was going to college in a town that actually had a comic book shop (my town doesn't). Few issues of Allstar, Lex Luthor Man of Steel, Astonishing X-men, Ultimate Spiderman etc.

I'm so enjoying really going into depth with Superman tho. I've been a Superman fan my entire life, but I feel like i'm understanding him better every day.

Just in the last two years i've read - Birthright, For Tomorrow, For all Seasons, Man of Steel, 3-2-1 Action, Kryptonite, Kingdom Come, Red Son, All Star Superman, Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow and the first three editions of The Superman Chronicles.

That may not seem like a lot to some, but in between two jobs, a good few TV shows I follow, watching the latest movies... and I have an actual social life! It's a lot to fit in.

It's awesome tho, because the more I read, the more exciting Superman as a character is, and the more exciting any new projects like MOS become, because you can see there are so many options of how they could handle it, what they could bring in, what sort of storylines and characterisations you can include.
It sounds like you and I have been on the same trajectory.

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Old 11-15-2011, 06:39 PM   #986
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
A little bit food for thought, Superman analyzed through the Jungian theories:

http://socyberty.com/philosophy/phil...at-superman/2/

Interesting, although I do not agree 100%, but then again I am not an expert when it comes to Jung. And I don't know exactly about which Superman incarnation the author is talking about.
Weird... not seeing anything all that insightful in there. Kind of just pointing out the obvious.

Superman fits into the hero archetype... yeah...
Superman represents good and Lex Luthor represents evil... yeah...
The symbol on his chest is there because symbols represent something... yeah...

Kind of just pointless statements IMO.

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It sounds like you and I have been on the same trajectory.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 11-15-2011, 09:16 PM   #987
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The social justice stuff is a bit annoying. I don't care for politics in comics.
Politics and superheroes pretty much go hand-in-hand. Are speaking of simply overt political messages?

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Old 11-15-2011, 10:19 PM   #988
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Action Comics is set 5 years before the Superman title, but is going to fastforward to the present soon.

Start with Action Comics #1
Ok gotchya Ant....thanks alot

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Old 11-16-2011, 08:07 AM   #989
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Weird... not seeing anything all that insightful in there. Kind of just pointing out the obvious.

Superman fits into the hero archetype... yeah...
Superman represents good and Lex Luthor represents evil... yeah...
The symbol on his chest is there because symbols represent something... yeah...

Kind of just pointless statements IMO.
You missed the part about Superman/Clark Kent.

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Old 11-16-2011, 08:56 AM   #990
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You missed the part about Superman/Clark Kent.
It is clear to me, that part is completely biased on the side of 'Clark Kent is just a disguise, Superman's the real guy'.

Quote:
Another aspect of Superman is his duality. As a day job, he is known as Clark Kent, a reporter working with Lois Lane for the Daily Planet. However, when duty calls, Superman emerges from Clark Kent. According to Carl Jung, Superman/Clark Kent suffers from the common dissociation. His “conscious” persona is the Clark Kent piece. This side lives a life that is a farce. He uses it merely to conceal his identity so he can save the world. His “unconscious” persona is the piece that is Superman. He cannot deny his powers and moral obligations, even if it interferes with his conscious, Clark Kent. This part of his personality reflects his true self and his true nature.
You could easily class Clark Kent as the 'unconscious' part of him, and 'Superman' as the conscious.

For example, you could word it like this:

'According to Carl Jung, Superman/Clark Kent suffers from the common dissociation. His “conscious” persona is the Superman piece. This side lives a life that is a farce. He uses it merely to conceal his identity so he can save the world. His “unconscious” persona is the piece that is Clark Kent. He cannot deny his human upbringing and need for a normal life, even if it interferes with his conscious, Superman. This part of his personality reflects his true self and his true nature'

But personally I'm tired of everyone trying to seperate the two personas and give one importance.

One man, one mind, two jobs, two aliases.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*

Last edited by hopefuldreamer; 11-16-2011 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:42 PM   #991
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

The only version of "Clark Kent is the real person" that I find interesting is Michael Fleisher's take, which says that Superman sees himself as Clark Kent-that is, the weak, cowardly, mild-mannered Clark, due to his feelings of helplessness over Krypton's destruction, his Oedipus Complexes, and his scorn towards the Kents. It's interesting, and complex, but it's just too dark for me and I don't buy into it.

Who is right about Superman is Maggin.

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:09 AM   #992
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It is clear to me, that part is completely biased on the side of 'Clark Kent is just a disguise, Superman's the real guy'.
That's not biased, that's how the character was conceived. Technically there is nothing to change about it. The only questions that are up to debate are why is Superman pretending to be Clark Kent? and How much truth is there to Clark?.

And depending on the characterization those two are often answered differently.

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But personally I'm tired of everyone trying to seperate the two personas and give one importance.
It must be different. It's what makes Superman different and unique.

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Old 11-17-2011, 04:59 AM   #993
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It must be different. It's what makes Superman different and unique.
No.

The majority of superheroes have a clear seperation between two personas. One is a disguise, one the real man.

Peter Parker is real, Spiderman is his disguise. Hal Jordan is real, Green Lantern is his disguise. Matt Murdock is real, Daredevil is his disguise. Etc Etc.

Clark Kent/Superman is different, and much more difficult to define.

I don't believe that either of his personas are a disguise, and I don't believe either are the real man.

I simply think the real man is who he is inside, and it barely ever comes out because he's always having to be Superman or Clark Kent.

The few times you do get to see the real person, are in monologues and the times he lets somebody in. And because those times are rare, they are special.

That's why i'm so sick of this argueing about which is the disguise.

It's like people don't understand that Superman is different to all the other superheroes, and so they are rushing to categorise him like all the others. Rushing to fit him into the expected superhero 'order' of things.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:25 AM   #994
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No.
Yes.
Quote:
The majority of superheroes have a clear seperation between two personas. One is a disguise, one the real man.
No.

Quote:
Peter Parker is real, Spiderman is his disguise. Hal Jordan is real, Green Lantern is his disguise. Matt Murdock is real, Daredevil is his disguise. Etc Etc.
Superman is real. Clark Kent is his disguise. That's what makes him different. The other characters don't really change, they just disguise themselves to protect their civilian identity. Superman disguises himself to be Clark Kent, not the other way round.

Quote:
Clark Kent/Superman is different, and much more difficult to define.
In some ways.
Quote:
I don't believe that either of his personas are a disguise, and I don't believe either are the real man.

I simply think the real man is who he is inside, and it barely ever comes out because he's always having to be Superman or Clark Kent.
Talk about "not getting it". The one who comes out, the real self is Superman.

Quote:
The few times you do get to see the real person, are in monologues and the times he lets somebody in. And because those times are rare, they are special.
Okay...

Quote:
That's why i'm so sick of this argueing about which is the disguise.
I'm too, but that's because people are just twisting Superman into something that he is not. People like you.

Quote:
It's like people don't understand that Superman is different to all the other superheroes, and so they are rushing to categorise him like all the others. Rushing to fit him into the expected superhero 'order' of things.
No. Superman is the guy who started this "superhero" thing, if anything the other characters are rip-offs. Most Golden Age superheroes have a similar dynamic; the public persona just being a lot of acting, but in the end not as consequential as in Superman's case. Spider-Man was basically the successful anti-thesis to Superman. A guy who needs his costume to get away from his nerdy self. Superman is the exact opposite. He doesn't have the problems of an everyday man. He's an alpha male who disguises himself as the mild-mannered Clark Kent.


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Old 11-17-2011, 10:55 AM   #995
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I think Superman should be more cocky, not such a nice guy.

Superman foils a robbery attempt, and when he drops off the perpetrator at police HQ he tells the guy "don’t expect me to save you when you drop the soap".

Or after saving a bunch of people from a big disaster a small crowd forms around Superman, Lois is there, she thrust a recorder in his face and asks if he has any comments.

Superman meanwhile catches a scantily clad blonde in his line of sight and turns to her, raises an eyebrow, nods his head back "hey you", completely turning his back 180 degrees on a frantic Lois.

After eye and body language flirting with the blonde bimbo, Superman turns himself back to Lois slowly, almost disinterested, then pushes himself up against her, his chest now 2" from her face.

Superman lowers his eyes to her, but not his head. Slowly smirks, and asks "you had something to say?"

Lois Quivering "um, just you know, wanted and interview".

Superman "No".

Superman flies off.

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:10 AM   #996
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I think Superman should be more cocky, not such a nice guy.

Superman foils a robbery attempt, and when he drops off the perpetrator at police HQ he tells the guy "don’t expect me to save you when you drop the soap".

Or after saving a bunch of people from a big disaster a small crowd forms around Superman, Lois is there, she thrust a recorder in his face and asks if he has any comments.

Superman meanwhile catches a scantily clad blonde in his line of sight and turns to her, raises an eyebrow, nods his head back "hey you", completely turning his back 180 degrees on a frantic Lois.


After eye and body language flirting with the blonde bimbo, Superman turns
himself back to Lois slowly, almost disinterested, then pushes himself up
against her, his chest now 2" from her face.

Superman lowers his eyes to her, but not his head. Slowly smirks, and asks "you had something to say?"

Lois Quivering "um, just you know, wanted and interview".


Superman "No".

Superman flies off.
lol I would love everything but the lois interview part.....started to sound like Tony stark.....but I agree he should be funny and cocky when it comes to criminals

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Old 11-17-2011, 12:24 PM   #997
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

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Yes.
No.

Superman is real. Clark Kent is his disguise. That's what makes him different. The other characters don't really change, they just disguise themselves to protect their civilian identity. Superman disguises himself to be Clark Kent, not the other way round.

In some ways.

Talk about "not getting it". The one who comes out, the real self is Superman.

Okay...

I'm too, but that's because people are just twisting Superman into something that he is not. People like you.

No. Superman is the guy who started this "superhero" thing, if anything the other characters are rip-offs. Most Golden Age superheroes have a similar dynamic; the public persona just being a lot of acting, but in the end not as consequential as in Superman's case. Spider-Man was basically the successful anti-thesis to Superman. A guy who needs his costume to get away from his nerdy self. Superman is the exact opposite. He doesn't have the problems of an everyday man. He's an alpha male who disguises himself as the mild-mannered Clark Kent.
Wow.

There's not really much I have to say to someone who is completely closed minded, does not allow for anybody having a different opinion to them, and doesn't even accept that there own stance IS an opinion in itself, not a fact.

I'm just going to make one thing clear.

I'm not changing Superman into anything he's not.

I am not a writer of the comics, nor am I making a movie about him. I have absolutely no creative control.

My opinion/perception of the characters dynamic comes from the combination of various different sources I have read/seen, and how i've interpreted them.

How you read something is completely subjective, and you have no right to tell someone they are wrong and you are right.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't respond to my posts with accusations of me 'not getting it', and statements that 'people like you' are twisiting him into something he's not.

It shows absolutely no respect to me (or any poster you speak to in that way), or the forum of open discussion in general and TBH I find it really offensive and aggrivating. Why you just can't say 'that's your opinion, but I disagree' I don't know...

And if you can't stop responding like that... just stop responding to me at all

We clearly, simply, do not agree.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 11-17-2011, 02:51 PM   #998
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

I think that in the terms of Kal-El wanting to be able to have some sort of normality to his life among people is the reason that he adopts the Clark persona in Metropolis. Along with the fact that he does not want people to realise Clark is Superman, otherwise he can kiss any semblance of a normal life goodbye.
Plus as a reporter he can have his ear to the ground for where he is needed when something major occurs.
One could argue that he could just be Superman 24x7 and live in his Fortress of Solitude. But who wants to live their entire life cut off from all others, even if they are not the same species as yourself?
My take is that the only time we see the real Kal-El is when he is at his adopted parents farm in Smallville.
My feeling is that neither Clark or Superman is a disguise but facets of his character. And as I just mentioned it is only on the farm does his real character come through because he has nothing to hide there.

Now, I am not an expert on Superman lore through the last 70+ years, but this is my opinion/feelings on the matter.

BTW
Well responded HS.

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Old 11-17-2011, 02:57 PM   #999
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

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Originally Posted by SuperMike335!! View Post
I think Superman should be more cocky, not such a nice guy.

Superman foils a robbery attempt, and when he drops off the perpetrator at police HQ he tells the guy "don’t expect me to save you when you drop the soap".

Or after saving a bunch of people from a big disaster a small crowd forms around Superman, Lois is there, she thrust a recorder in his face and asks if he has any comments.

Superman meanwhile catches a scantily clad blonde in his line of sight and turns to her, raises an eyebrow, nods his head back "hey you", completely turning his back 180 degrees on a frantic Lois.

After eye and body language flirting with the blonde bimbo, Superman turns himself back to Lois slowly, almost disinterested, then pushes himself up against her, his chest now 2" from her face.

Superman lowers his eyes to her, but not his head. Slowly smirks, and asks "you had something to say?"

Lois Quivering "um, just you know, wanted and interview".

Superman "No".

Superman flies off.
Superman is such a powerful figure that he does not need to hide behind a cocky/arrogant attitude.
I do agree that he could/should(?) intimidate regular criminals along the lines of, "You know I could kill you with a flick of my finger... But you will suffer the consequences of your actions better by sitting in a jail cell for the next ten years."

Or something like that...

But I would really hate to see an always arrogant Superman.

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:11 PM   #1000
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization

I would agree that both Superman and Clark are extensions of Kal-El/Smallville Clark, but they both also require elements of disguise.

There are real aspects of Kal -El/Smallville Clark within both Superman and Clark, but they are also both disguises to a degree.

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