What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

[Anubis]

Nah, that's just general stupidity.

[kamphausd1]

Waid has done some good stuff, no question about that. But ever since I read his idiotic comments about how he thinks Spider-Man should always be a perennial loser, his belief that that's the character's key appeal, and that having a hot wife or girlfriend makes the character hard to relate to, I have a hard time taking anything he says seriously.

[Czar Colossus]

Originally Posted by JAK®

John Byrne is responsible for everyone thinking Superman is a boring character.

With all due respect....that's just ridiculous. Byrne made Superman cool again. He gave people a reason to start reading his books again. I understand that's the reason for this new 52 business, but I can't help feeling some of the changes (to Superman in particular) are just not good one's. Especially in light of Superman: Secret Origin getting retconned less than two years after it came out.

[CConn]

No, it's definitely a good thing that Secret Origin got retconned. It was woefully mediocre.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Already? Christ. So what's the official origin now?

[CConn]

Whatever Grant Morrison ****ing wants it to be, that's what.

[Sloth7d]

Superman prefers to think of his origins as multiple choice. One day it's a little of one thing, the next day it's a little of something completely different. This was all said in that comic book where he crippled Babara Gordon to prove a point to her dad.

[Lord]

I was liking the direction Morrison's new origin for superman was going, until he decided to put 3 twists in a single issue and focus on 2- 3 villains for the origin story arc

[Oddzball]

Originally Posted by BATS N' HORNETS

It just seems to me that the 1986 stuff and on well into the 90's did this thing with Superman where he was made very contemporary and fresh but kept what was always so strong about the character since his inception. I think after Jurgens, Stern, Ordway etc. kind of left the character, something just hasn't been the same. I can't put my finger on it.

The Stern/Ordway Superman had a dry sense of humor. This helped humanize him.

[Czar Colossus]

......and that is the key to a great Superman....he must seem more human. Superman is Clark Kent in disguise, not the other way around (in spite of the way he was originally described, most notably in the '50s TV series). Superman works best when it is acknowledged that Clark is the real person and Superman is a vehicle to use his abilities. BTW Secret Origins may not have been a masterpiece, but it's looking pretty good compared to this new stuff. I know it may still be too early to tell.....thus I remain as open minded and optimistic as I can be.

[Anubis]

Really? Cuz I like the new stuff. (with the exception of Ma and pa being dead.) I like a brash, young, kinda stupid Supes. Then again I am like an issue behind.

[CConn]

Yeah, Morrison's Action is still better.

[Lord]

Originally Posted by Czar Colossus

......and that is the key to a great Superman....he must seem more human. Superman is Clark Kent in disguise, not the other way around (in spite of the way he was originally described, most notably in the '50s TV series). Superman works best when it is acknowledged that Clark is the real person and Superman is a vehicle to use his abilities. BTW Secret Origins may not have been a masterpiece, but it's looking pretty good compared to this new stuff. I know it may still be too early to tell.....thus I remain as open minded and optimistic as I can be.

With all that said i think you don't like golden age Superman very much, i mean, Clark Kent was the disguise during that era, the new superman origin with Superman impulsive and behaving like he is right now, all that was based from the golden age superman stories

[Czar Colossus]

No argument there, you are absolutely right. I do however have a fondness for the nostalgia of the Golden Age, but I prefer the interpretation of Superman as being very in touch with his humanity and the acknowledgement that he is the kind of man that he is because of Jonathan and Martha. He has his abilities because he is Kryptonian, but he does not act like an alien.This Superman does not seem like the leader and role model the previous version was. I think him having Ma and Pa Kent to go to to get away from his responsibilities as Superman made him more appealing than ever, then when he married Lois he could also turn to her.Now that is gone and I don't particularly like that. I will always be a devoted Superman fan, but this new 52 stuff is taking a lot of effort for me to like what they're doing with Superman; I really hate this new look.

[Mace Dolex]

Originally Posted by Czar Colossus

Especially in light of Superman: Secret Origin getting retconned less than two years after it came out.

Say wha...? and I just bought that a few weeks ago.

[Anubis]

Yeah, that was a waste of cash.

[Mace Dolex]

^ AARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

*rips up entire comic book collection*

[CConn]

Don't do that. 0.2% of those books are probably still in continuity.

[Czar Colossus]

I suppose it is going to be interesting to see what is being kept and what is not. Are they going to retell the death of Superman with Clark and Lois not a couple and Ma and Pa Kent dead or is that whole story getting thrown out?

[Anubis]

Supposedly he still died, but what actually happened will be radically changed........for instance the JLI wont have gotten their assess handed to them by Doomsday.

[That person]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

Mark Waid's issue with The Man of Steel was simply that John Byrne replaced the Silver Age/Bronze Age Mort Weisinger Superman that Mark Waid loved with an updated version of Superman that was closer to the Golden Age Superman, instead of the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman from Mark Waid's childhood. Mark Waid admitted, "I was one of the wailers years ago when Byrne did his stint."

There is no more "real" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. And The Man of Steel returned Superman closer to the Golden Age roots, while also updating Superman for a contemporary audience.
The Man of Steel restored Superman's uniqueness as the Sole Survivor of Krypton. In the Golden Age this was the standard. With Silver Age Mort Weisinger concepts of Krypto the Super Dog, Beppo the Super Monkey, Kara Zor-El Supergirl, the Argo City citizens in the Survival Zone, and millions of Kryptonians in the Bottled City of Kandor, etc., in the Silver Age/Bronze Age one began to wonder if anybody really died when Krypton exploded. The Silver Age/Bronze Age Mort Weisinger/Elliot Maggin Superman feels like a "stranger in a strange land", and pines for Krypton, says "Great Rao" and spends his spare time in a Fortress shrine to Krypton in solitude. The Golden Age Superman by Jerry Siegel didn't pine for Krypton, he was upbeat, smiling, secure hero, with a sly sense of humor, and toyed with criminals humorously.
John Byrne brought that back in The Man of Steel.
The Man of Steel had Clark Kent display some confidence again. John Byrne said that DC's then Publisher/President Jenette Kahn and Vice President/Executive Editor Dick Giordano wouldn't let him return Superman's powers to the original level by Jerry Siegel. However, John Byrne was allowed to scale back Superman's powers closer to the original Golden Age power level, giving Superman limitations again. He couldn't time travel, he couldn't move planets around, or survive without any air indefinitely, he had to noticeably strain and struggle against super-powered foes. The Man of Steel brought back Lois as a tough, competitive, aggressive reporter, making her a much more independent and sane character again than the Silver Age/Bronze Age Weisinger Lois spending her life trying to get Superman to marry her and prove that Clark Kent and Superman are the same person. As soon as DC gave Siegel and Shuster the boot the Lois who was supposed to be Clark’s independent, feisty, strong-willed rival reporter competing for stories was turned into a woman intent on proving that Clark Kent is Superman.
Superman was originally a champion of the oppressed versus corruption of the law at the highest levels, rich corrupt LexCorp Lex Luthor hiding behind a mask of respectability was a return to that concept. The Man of Steel brought Luthor closer to his roots. Luthor was originally a red haired dictator - a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. He wore business suits. Here is Luthor in Superman #4 (1940), written by Jerry Siegel and drawn by Paul Cassidy.

[/U][/B]Luthor in The Man of Steel was red haired and wore business suits and was certainly a ruler assuming sole and absolute power. He was also a con-man. He had scientists working for him and Jerry Siegel's Golden Age Luthor had a scientific lab assistant working for him. Luthor originally met Superman as an adult and hated Superman because he's powers were a threat. The Man of Steel was a return to that concept.
Why is bring a character back to it's roots good? To get back closer to what it was meant to be. It does make sense from a entertainment and business stand point to get back closer to what made Superman such a hit in the first place. The Man of Steel realized that and presented Superman, Lois, Luthor closer to Jerry Siegel's creation.

"I have taken my standard 'Back to the Basics' approach," John Byrne says about his work on Superman. "Everything that has accumulated over the years has been the result of people trying to do something different. So now I'm taking Superman back to the basics, and that becomes different because it hasn't been done in so long. It's basically Siegel and Shuster's Superman meets the Fleischer Superman in 1986."

The Man of Steel has an obvious connection and continuity throughout. It's the modern age updating of Superman's origin and big events in his history, like his first meeting Lois, Luthor, Batman, etc., for a contemporary audience.
Birthright is a lot of Silver Age nostalgia and pandering to the Smallville TV show fans. There is no need for Birthright, Superman: Secret Origin and the current rebooted Action Comics to exist. Like Batman: Year One (1986), if it isn't broken, don't fix it, and The Man of Steel (1986) wasn't broken.
I always highly recommend The Man of Steel...

And to retort:

Compare it to:

Obviously, both Byrne and Waid took some inspiration from the Golden Age, which is fine, because the Golden Age was awesome. Comparing the two, I'd say Birthright stayed truer to the spirit of the character and was a generally-better told story.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by That person

Obviously, both Byrne and Waid took some inspiration from the Golden Age, which is fine, because the Golden Age was awesome. Comparing the two, I'd say Birthright stayed truer to the spirit of the character and was a generally-better told story.

Yeah.

[Lord]

While i now dislike the idea of Lex and Clark meeting in their youth i think the young Lex from Birthright was how he should be in that age, i still don't see the hate Birthright sometimes has

[hopefuldreamer]

I'm going to start this post by saying that I grew up on Lois and Clark as a kid, and because of that I used to defend Byrne's stories.

But it hasn't taken a lot for me to kind of question their quality, and the intentions behind the entire Byrne reboot, which basically stripped the character of certain qualities and 'marvelised' him in a failed attempt to increase popularity.

Also, Birthright is my favourite origin story, bar the young Lex stuff.

I love how Clark is characterised, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

[QUOTE=theMan-Bat;21662613]
There is no more "real" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

That's right. The Golden Age Superman, written by Jerry Siegel, didn't even know about Krypton. Superman in the comics didn't learn of Krypton and Kryptonite until Superman #61 (1949), written by Bill Finger. "

Are you suggesting that after Golden Age, Superman's stories and direction became suddenly no longer up to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster?

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by That person

Obviously, both Byrne and Waid took some inspiration from the Golden Age, which is fine, because the Golden Age was awesome. Comparing the two, I'd say Birthright stayed truer to the spirit of the character and was a generally-better told story.

Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was definitely not truer to the Golden Age Jerry Siegel Superman than John Byrne's The Man of Steel. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age foster father Kent was elderly, described as kind, loving and guided Clark with the foster parents advice to Clark to use his powers to assist humanity. Mark Waid's Jonathan Kent in Superman: Birthright is far younger and blonde (obviously to resemble actor John Schneider on the Smallville TV show), is cold, distant, barely spoke to Clark rather than encouraging and guiding Clark into using his powers to assist humanity. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age Luthor didn't meet Superman until he was an adult and hated him because he powers were a threat. Mark Waid's Lex Luthor in Superman: Birthright is from Smallville and met Clark as a boy and blames Clark for his baldness. Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was actually closer to the Silver Age, as well as the Smallville TV show, with the House of El on Krypton from the Silver Age, Lex coming from Smallville and having been friends with Clark as in the Silver Age and as on the Smallville TV show, and blaming Clark for his baldness as in the Silver Age, a younger Jonathan and Martha Kent as in the Smallville TV show, etc.

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

I'm going to start this post by saying that I grew up on Lois and Clark as a kid, and because of that I used to defend Byrne's stories.

But it hasn't taken a lot for me to kind of question their quality, and the intentions behind the entire Byrne reboot, which basically stripped the character of certain qualities and 'marvelised' him in a failed attempt to increase popularity.

That snide "Marvelized" remark came about because John Byrne was coming over from Marvel to DC to revamp Superman. He didn't Marvelize the character. He didn't turn Superman into Spider-Man, or Wolverine, or Hulk, or Daredevil, or Thor, and he didn't turn Luthor into Kingpin either. Kingpin is a gigantic mobster and martial artist and carries a laser cane. Kingpin is incredibly strong, most of his body mass is actually muscle that has been built to extraordinary size, much like a sumo wrestler and is an extraordinarily skilled martial artist, especially in sumo wrestling and can beat his foes Spider-Man and Daredevil physically, Byrne's Luthor was much thinner and couldn't do any of the things Kingpin can and wouldn't because he thinks that's beneath him. Instead he matches his brains against Superman's strength by creating something to destroy Superman. Kingpin was always a minor player to Spider-Man, just a weird mobster, while Byrne's Luthor was Superman's arch enemy.
And, actually, Superman's sales were declining before 1986, which is why DC wanted to revamp Superman in 1985 and hired John Byrne in the first place. And John Byrne actually boosted Superman's sales enormously in 1986 with The Man of Steel and John Byrne's run on the ongoing Superman titles. If Superman's sales were declining then DC certainly wouldn't have given Superman a fourth ongoing series in 1991 with Superman: The Man of Steel. The Death of Superman arc also boosted Superman's sales even further in 1992. Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was a successful television series from 1993 to 1997, which was definitely influenced by John Byrne's run. Superman: The Wedding Album was also an enormous success in 1996. Superman has definitely had success since 1986.

Also, Birthright is my favourite origin story, bar the young Lex stuff.

I love how Clark is characterised, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

The Man of Steel is my favorite Superman origin story, including the Luthor stuff in it. I love how Clark is characterized, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out with his kind foster parents, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

Are you suggesting that after Golden Age, Superman's stories and direction became suddenly no longer up to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster?

Of course, because unfortunately that is what happened. By 1941 most Superman art was by Jack Burnley, Wayne Boring, Leo Nowak and Paul Cassidy, instead of Joe Shuster himself. Jerry Siegel also left DC by 1945, and Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster sued DC in 1946 over the rights of Superman. Don Cameron, Whitney Ellsworth, Bill Finger and Alvin Schwartz replaced Jerry Siegel. Mort Weisinger became the supervising editor in charge of the Superman books in 1948. Weisinger told the writers what kind of stories they had to write. Weisinger would come up with plots by asking young children what they think should happen in the next issue. Weisinger had Superman's origin majorly revamped with him having learned he was from Krypton while still a boy in Superman #132 (1959) "Superman's Other Life" and having battled crime as a youngster as Superboy, as recalled in Superman #72 (1951) "The Private Life of Perry White." In addition, it was stated that "Because of his super-memory, Superman can recall all the incidences of his childhood!" in Action Comics #288 (1962) "The Man Who Exposed Superman," and others. The complete revamp of Superman's origin was shown in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." Weisinger was also friendly with the boss, Jack Liebowitz, which further forced the writers into listening to what Mort told them to write. When financially troubled Jerry Siegel returned to DC in 1959 to 1966, Curt Swan recalled that Mort Weisinger bullied Siegel, simply because Siegel's circumstances made him unlikely to walk off for such mistreatment. Jerry Siegel wrote in a letter to Joe Shuster, "I get a lot of scorn, belittlement and hot-tempered abuse from Weisinger, who says my plotting and scripting is inferior. This is really making a buck the hard way, but it's the only way I can support my family." Curt Swan said that dealing with Weisinger caused himself recurrent headaches and temporarily drove him out of the business altogether in 1951. Otto Binder retired from the business in 1958, mainly to escape from dealing with Weisinger. Alvin Schwartz said, "Like many others, I found Weisinger difficult to deal with. But I endured until one day he insisted that I write a story in which Superman finds some way to transfer his powers to Lois Lane. … I thought such a plot was out of character." Alvin Schwartz wrote the story "The Superwoman of Metropolis" in Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #8 (1959) against his will, then quit: "I never wrote comics again." Roy Thomas recalled dealing with Weisinger inclined him to leave DC after only 8 days and move to Marvel in 1965.