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#51 |
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Excellent...very well put. You are obviously well studied in your comics history. I'm with you concerning Byrne's take on Superman. Before that I bought Superman comics occasionally, I have been reading Superman every month since. I believe the reason we are (or at least I am ) suffering this new Superman revamp is due to the lawsuit DC vs Seigal's & Shuster's estates. The estates own the rights to the Golden Age interpretation of Superman while DC has rights to anything since (I'm sure it's a bit more involved than this, but it's the basic gist). Thus it would seem that we the fans are faced with the ramifications of this legal dilemma. Hopefully it won't destroy (arguably) the greatest Superhero of all time.
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#52 | |||||||
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Just by discovering and preserving K-Metal, Waid did more for Superman than Byrne ever did. Last edited by Kurosawa; 12-16-2011 at 11:27 PM. |
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#53 | ||||||||||
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Superman figured out that Bizarro is an artificial being with cells that mimic living cells and that Lucy's vision was being restored by exposure to some of the dust from Bizarro's body that mimics living cells in The Man of Steel (1986) "The Mirror, Crack'd" by John Byrne. Superman figured out how to move the whole structure of Professor Emmet Vale's underground laboratory into space by burrowing around the lab at super-speed, using his heat-vision to fuse the silicates in the soil into a steel-hard bowl a yard thick and then lift the entire complex and carry it "up, up, and away" from the earth and position the whole thing at the Lagrange point, where the gravities of the earth and the moon combine to create an area of stability in Superman #1 (1987) "Heart of Stone" by John Byrne. Superman figured out the control circuitry on scientist David Gundersen's mind-transferring machine to transfer his mind back to his own body in Action Comics #584 (1987) "Squatter!" by John Byrne. Superman figured out that everything in Host was suboperated to the transfer circuits and Superman outsmarted the H'v'ler'ni into turning on each other and causing a massive short circuit of all of Host's internal systems in Superman #6 (1987) "The Last Five Hundred" by John Byrne. Superman figured out how to absorb Rampage's solar radiation into his own cell structure and then found a way to discharge it by hitting himself with lightening in Superman #7 (1987) "Rampage!" by John Byrne. Superman and the Metal Men outsmarted Chemo, who had duplicated the powers of Superman, by the Metal Men blocking the sun's rays, and Superman using his heat-vision to make Chemo boil in order to have Chemo's chemical components jet out of his super-heated steam. Superman blasts it with his super-breath to propel it into the high atmosphere to crystallize and remain harmless floating at the edge of space. Superman figures out that without his molten insides, Chemo's empty body has gone as hard and brittle as glass, and with a tap from Superman, shatters into pieces in Action Comics #590 (1987) "Better Living/Dying through Chemistry" by John Byrne. Superman figured out that a secret satellite had been in orbit that was bombarding half the country with chosen wavelengths of solar energy, the same solar energy that drives Superman's powers. When the energy in his body reached a certain level, his powers went out of control. By "fine tuning" the radiation, Luthor could control which power went haywire at which point. When Superman flew up in space, he realized that he could see all of the infrared stars, Superman figured out that the robot, Klaash, was surrounded by a selective warping field which rendered it visible only in the infrared, and Superman's infrared vision was on, courtesy of Luthor, all the time he battled Klaash, so Superman dismantled the satellite that directed Klaash and made his powers go haywire, and presented the evidence against Luthor to the police in Superman #10 (1987) "The Super Menace of Metropolis!" by John Byrne. Superman outsmarted Mr. Mxyzptlk into typing and saying his name backwards by re-wiring the insides of a giant type-writer at super-speed, so when Mxyzptlk hit the "m" key it made a "k," the "x" made an "l," and so on, because Superman depended on Mxyzptlk to cheat and use his powers to strike the correct keys, and when he did, Mxyzptlk came out Kltpzyxm, in Superman #11 (1987) "The Name Game" by John Byrne. When Darkseid tried to trick Superman and Wonder Woman into fighting each other by having each of them fight Kalibak and Amazing Grace in disguise as them and then having Kalibak and Amazing Grace duck out of view, so Superman and Wonder Woman would then battle each other, but Superman and Wonder Woman figured out that it was Darkseid's minions Kalibak and Amazing Grace disguised that they were each fighting, realizing that Darkseid's minions do not have the same level of power that Superman and Wonder Woman have and they noticed their impostors conveniently ducked out of view in order to try to get Superman and Wonder Woman to fight each other but instead they mocked fighting in order to cover their search for Darkseid, which brought them right to Darkseid's secret lair in Action Comics #600 (1988) "Different Worlds" by John Byrne. Mr. Mxyzptlk bets Superman he can't make Mxyzptlk paint his face blue and Superman outsmarted Mxyzptlk by changing the makeup Mxyzptlk puts on to a kind that changes color under special lighting conditions to blue in The Adventures of Superman #441 (1988) "The Tiny Terror of Tinseltown" by John Byrne. Superman deduced a way to defeat Psi-Phon and Dreadnaught with his intelligence by forcing Psi-Phon to overload Dreadnaught. Superman deduced that Psi-Phon created something very much like psychosomatic blindness. Just as a person afflicted with that ailment can still see, but his brain refuses to accept the images transmitted by his eyes, his powers were still there, he just couldn't work them. Psi-Phon was testing the strength and intelligence of the superheroes by analyzing the brains of beings with super-powers, finding the area of the brain that controls the power and shut it off, the Dreadnaught duplicates the power, thus creating the illusion that they steal it. Psi-Phon and Dreadnaught were not really alive. They were super-sophisticated probes, sent by an unknown alien race to determine if the earths heroes were smart enough to foil a would be invasion in The Adventures of Superman #442 (1988) "Power Play" by John Byrne. Quote:
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Superman comics were generally more successful in the '50s with the success and popularity of the George Reeves Adventures of Superman TV show, than in the '60s. All comic book sales generally were lower in the '80s than they were back in the '50s and '60s. They were still sold everywhere, but the growing popularity of video games had a negative impact on comic book sales. However, Superman #75 (1992), "The Death of Superman" issue, set a record as DC's best selling single issue ever. Comic book sales shrunk much, much more into it's current closeted state when they stopped selling comic books in mainstream newstands, shopping centers and grocery stores. What John Byrne purposed as Marvel's version of Superman to Jim Shooter in 1984 is very different from what he ended up doing in The Man of Steel in 1986. There is no Council of Twelve seen in The Man of Steel. A pregnant Lara didn't get sent in the rocket to earth and pulled out by Jonathan Kent and then gives birth and names the boy Kal-El before she dies in The Man of Steel. Instead, Kal-El was created by artificial insemination in The Man of Steel and there is a birthing-matrix in the rocketship in The Man of Steel. Byrne's version of Krypton in The Man of Steel is influenced by Donner's version, but it's not repeating Donner's version. John Byrne said, "I liked the cold, antiseptic Krypton that I saw in the movie." Jonathan Kent doesn't die from a heart attack in a tractor stuck in some mud in The Man of Steel. Lois doesn't get any stories first in The Man of Steel and Perry White doesn't urge Clark to try harder in The Man of Steel. There is no President taken captive by terrorists in The Man of Steel. Clark doesn't suddenly start using his powers for good and become Superman after he gets the job at the Daily Planet in The Man of Steel. He doesn't suddenly start wearing glasses to help disguise himself when he’s Clark Kent after he gets the job at the Daily Planet in The Man of Steel. Superman doesn't break up an armored car robbery, or rescues a stuck tramway car, or pulls subway cars full of people from a collapsed tunnel where Lois first meets him as Superman in The Man of Steel. Luthor isn't first seen as a shadowy figure watching television news accounts of the exploits of Superman and reading the Daily Planet article by Clark Kent in The Man of Steel. The Man of Steel is very different than the version he had purposed to Marvel in 1984. http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/10/su...rnes-plot.html Quote:
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Jerry Siegel envisioned Superboy as a super-prankster rather than as a crime-fighter. Jerry Siegel sued DC for their use of Superboy and for publishing a Superboy without even consulting with him first or trying to buy the rights from Jerry Siegel first. "It is clear to me that, in publishing Superboy, the Detective Comics, Inc. acted illegally," said the judge J. Addison Young in his 1948 ruling. "I cannot accept defendant's view that Superboy was in reality Superman. I think Superboy was a separate and distinct entity." http://www.planetslade.com/superheroes5.html
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#54 | |||
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![]() ![]() This Jimmy Olsen looks like Justin Bieber. He doesn't even have Jimmy Olsen's freckles. ![]() This Superman is camera shy. Grant Morrison's Clark Kent worked at a rival newspaper to Lois and Jimmy. ![]() Grant Morrison's angry Superman tyrannously threatens the citizens of Metropolis to "Treat people 'right' or expect a visit from me." Dictating above Metropolis, creating fear, rather than trust. ![]() This Superman wears a t-shirt, blue jeans and later wears body armor instead of the classic iconic costume recognized by generations.
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#55 |
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First off: Superman comics from the 60's were HUGE sellers, both in terms of market share and pure numbers. Look it up. Usually 6 books (Action, Superman, Adventure, Superboy, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane) were in the top ten.
I could go point-for-point, but I really have nothing to discuss with a Byrne-defender, Miller-worshipping, Waid and Morrision disparaging individual such as you. Nothing personal, but you clearly do not understand Superman at all, and that is not going to change, especially with the way you cherrypick your facts, and make assumptions that only support your viewpoints. See, to me, what is important is the characters and their creators, not my personal viewpoints. Jerry Siegel never intended for Superman to be a government lackey, never intended for Clark Kent to be the real person and Superman the disguise, never intended for the Kents to stay alive into Clarks adulthood, etc, etc. But we really have nothing left to discuss, our views on Superman are radically different and to be honest as soon as someone defends Miller's treatment of the character I pretty much consider their viewpoints on him to be null and void. I respect your knowledge, but we will never agree on anything. Please add me to your ignore list. Last edited by Kurosawa; 12-18-2011 at 09:30 PM. |
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#56 |
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You do make some valid points. Since Superman has been around for several decades and been handled by many creators he has grown far beyond the expectations of his creators. Personally I liked Byrne's interpretation of Superman; I did not like Miller's. I also feel that Alex Ross has a good take on him as well. Although it was indeed not originally the intention of Seigal and Shuster that Clark be the real person and that his parents live long into his career as Superman, I personally think he works best that way. There have been many memorable moments over the years seeing Clark's love and respect for his parents shape him into the hero that he is. I'm thus far not impressed at all with the New 52 version (but as I'm a big fan I will hang on). So there's my 2 cents for what it's worth.
.....oh and Colossus is not a moron; simple and pure hearted, but not a moron. (As a matter of fact archetypally they are brothers.)
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#57 | |
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Ross does have a great handle on the character, however. I think he should had the first shot a redesigning the costume if they just HAD to change it. |
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#58 | |
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I really think all Superman's "established" characterization did was simplify the character, and make him a whole lot less interesting. All the little aspects that Morrison has brought back from S&S's original run improve and enrich the character 10 fold from what he's been in recent decades.
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#59 | |||
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#60 |
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Weren't Batman's sales at an all time low in 1964? Nearly forcing DC to kill off Batman entirely? Only to be saved by the genius editorial work of Julie Schwartz?
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#61 |
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I perfer John Byrne's take on Superman, and theMan-Bat did a great job of explaining why Byrne's Superman was so awesome. But I thought I'd give five reason why I perfer the Byrne era.
1. The Sole Survivor of the Planet Krypton. One of the appeals to me is that he was the last Kryptonian, the last of his race, he was unique in the universe. 2. Not as powerful. The Pre-Crisis Silver Age/ Bromze age Superman was os powerful that he moved Planets. You really wonder why you needed other heroes. I liked that he struggled to move things and even had to use a space suit to go into Space. there were limitations and to his powers. 3. Clark a more competent reporter. Clark wasn't clumsy, etc. I know Byrne got this from the George Reeves version which I liked. 4. Lex Luthor is a self-made corrupt corperate tycoon from the suicide slums. Who's hatred of Superman is out of the jealousy of the love of the people of Metropolis for the hero. 5. Both the Kents are alive to guide and support Clark. Again theMan-Bat covered this stuff on the first page of this tread, and he did it better then me.
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#62 |
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Also, **** heartwarming characters that keep Superman grounded. Their continued existence removed a large bit of the edge that the original Superman had.
Lastly, paragraphs were invented for a reason. |
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#63 |
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You can view 1960s sales figures at http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales/1960s.html
The only years that Batman, the single comic book, outsold Superman, the single comic book, was in 1966/1967, the height of Batmania. Even then, there wasn't much difference in the sales of Batman + Detective and Superman + Action and Superman had a whole family of titles that were strong sellers. In 1966, the #1 title was Batman with 898,470 reported circulation. Eight of the next 9 titles had Superman/Superboy in it (caveat World's Finest and JLA also had Batman). For comic book sales, nobody dominated the market of the 1960s like Superman. Batman, Spider-Man, FF, etc. weren't really close. Archie probably has a better argument than Batman for the 1960s. FWIW, I do think the idea that the Batman titles were close to cancellation isn't really supported by the sales data. Losing ground and in need of a revamp to stay current in the market place, sure. But, cancellation seemed more a threat to make Kane give up some editorial control than a real possibility because of numbers. Last edited by Evil Twin; 12-19-2011 at 09:40 AM. |
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#64 |
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I agree that the absence of the Kents takes something away from Superman as does his relationship with Lois regressing from what we've had for the last 16 yrs. Even considering that Jonathan died before this New 52 reboot we got years of great stories showing his important influence on Clark. As it stands the relationship between Lois and Clark at this point seems a bit different in that she is not enamored with Superman. The love triangle that was developed for years finally yielded that best outcome with them finally getting married. Their relationship evolved into something wonderful. As Clark's parents would eventually pass, Lois would be the anchor to humanity that Superman needs. I feel Superman is more interesting when he is portrayed as a god-like being that relates strongly to the humans he is devoted to protecting, not just because he has a strong sense of responsibility, but because he truly has a family and loved ones among us (What could be a stronger motivation that the bond of family and marriage?). Superman as more alien is not as appealing. With the utmost respect and admiration to Siegal & Shuster for creating Superman in the first place, he is a great character who has been fleshed out in some better ways by other writers than his creators may have originally conceived. Even the explanation of his dual identity being such that Clark's hair and glasses were not so much the deterrent to revealing his duality as the assumption by the general public that Superman was not hiding anything since he did not wear a mask (not to say the emphasis on posture and body language made no difference); this made perfect sense.(Not an idea presented by Siegal & Shuster) Of course we'll probably never know, but I don't think they would have objected to the notion that Clark really came first (he didn't even know he was Kal-El until much later) and the evolution of his relationship with Lois leading to marriage. A truly great character is someone that can live possibly forever and can be expounded upon by others to add to their richness. Perhaps it's too early too tell, but I feel we have lost some wonderful elements in the new interpretation (and again I hate this new look). Also I said (of Colossus and especially Superman) simple, not simple minded. The greatest truths as well as the greatest men are often simple.
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#65 |
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Par
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#66 | |
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Superman comics sold bigger in the '50s with the success of the Adventures of Superman television show starring George Reeves. Julius Schwartz and Carmine Infantino boosted the Batman sales with the new look in 1964 and the '60s Batmania hit with the success of the television show starring Adam West and Burt Ward in 1966, which boosted the sales of Batman comics enormously into the bigger seller, outselling Superman.
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#67 |
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#68 |
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The absence of the Kents allows Superman to grow up, keeping them around keeps him eternally Superboy. Even Byrne admits that getting rid of Superboy was a mistake, and Siegel intended Superboy to be part of his history from practically the beginning.
I hate that Richie Cunningham crap with Ma and Pa fawning over Clark and him being so "aw shux" about it...saccharine as hell, and it's no wonder people saw that and perceived Superman as some sort of lilywhite dork and Batman as a badass who had actually suffered in life. Superman works best when he is based in the Golden, Silver and Bronze Age versions, because it that was the most iconic and creative version-Silver Age especially, even though I'm more partial to the Golden Age social crusader Superman myself. |
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#69 | |||
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John Byrne has not said he regrets getting rid of Superboy. In fact, Byrne says, "One of the central points of my "back to the basics" approach to the Superman reboot was that he began his career as an adult -- so no Superboy." http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/lis...ok+Projects#32 He said that he wanted to do stories of Superman "learning the ropes." A Superman who is "new to the job." Byrne said, "I wanted to drop Superboy because he was not part of the original mythos." Byrne said, "The choice to leave him out of the canon was mine. But, as noted many times, that choice was made with the assurance from the Powers That Were that I would be able to do a Superman who was still learning the ropes. Then, after the contracts were signed, they reneged on that promise." http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...422&PN=0&TPN=1 DC did not publish the version of Superboy that Jerry Siegel had created. Jerry Siegel envisioned Superboy as a super-prankster rather than as a crime-fighter. Quote:
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#70 | |
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Think about that. Even during the heights of Batmania, Superman dominated the market. Batman didn't really become the dominant sales force he's become until post-Dark Knight Returns/Year One. Even then, Burton's movie provided the real boost. |
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#71 | |
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Dell was actually the #1 comics publisher in the 50's, with their Disney books. They sold great and were great comics too-Carl Barks was as great at what he did as Kirby was. |
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#72 | |
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Batman did outsell Superman in the '60s, in 1966 and 1967. I didn't say Batman constantly outsold Superman throughout the decade of the '60s nor did I claim that Batman had more titles than Superman.
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#73 | ||
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As for Alfred acting as a parental figure, that is Post-Crisis only. Alfred originally came along after Batman and Robin had been operating for years and was originally a comic relief figure. He later lost weight and grew a moustache because of the performance of William Austin in the 43 serial, but was still often a comic relief character. and yes, Siegel wanted Superboy to be a trickster type character, but then again, his early Superman had moments of that and Superman continues to have elements of that still today. Some of the early Superboy stories from More Fun Comics and Adventure Comics had elements of kid gang comedies in them. |
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#74 | ||||
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http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...894&PN=0&TPN=3 "The deathbed scene, wherein Pa Kent, before dieing, cautioned Clark that he must only use his great powers for the good of Mankind, when Clark had already been doing just what his father bid him to do. Superboy's adventures had made the deathbed scene not only unnecessary, but actually insulting. Pa Kent should be confident enough in the moral upbringing he and Martha had given Clark that he would have no need for that "reinforcement". I decided to go back to Seigel and Shuster and eliminate Superboy from my version -- but keeping certain elements by retaining Ma and Pa Kent as viable characters." http://byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6045 Quote:
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#75 | |
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Which is wrong. From the period 1960 to 1969, Superman sold millions more than Batman. Even if we're just restricting it to Superman magazine vs. Batman magazine. We toss in all the related titles and it's even more lopsided in favor of Superman. 1966 to 1967 don't make up "the '60s". Nor, did you specify that you weren't talking about Superman titles in their entirety vs. Batman titles in their entirety, which certainly is a relevant barometer of popularity. If you want to say that at one point in the 1960s, one Batman magazine outsold Superman's namesake title for a short period, then fine, but by all reasonable standards Superman dominated the superhero marketplace of the decade. And it wasn't even close. That clearly was the peak of Superman's comic book commercial appeal and it's relevant to try to understand why that was. |
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