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#26 |
That's Funny
Join Date: Apr 2011
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I can only think of 3 or 4 villains that could be considered as watered down Jokers, but I'm sure that quote wasn't meant to be applied at all obviously to any of the characters in TDKR.
The ones that come to mind that could fit that bill would be The Riddler, Mad Hatter, and to some extent, The Penguin. To me, I don't see anyone else coming close to Joker as far as motives, personality, or methods go...maybe Nolan has a slightly different perspective? |
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#27 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bat Country
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Black Mask is nothing like the Joker.
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#28 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jul 2010
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When you think about it, this movie only had one place to go, and that was Catwoman and Bane (and Talia). There's no way that Penguin, Riddler, Mr. Freeze, or anyone else could've worked in Nolan's interpretation. (Besides Black Mask)
In the reboot down the road, I can almost guarantee that we'll see some combination of Riddler, Freeze, and Penguin. Probably Riddler and Penguin if I had to put money on it. But for TDKR, I'm surprised we didn't see it coming sooner. Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Man-Bat, Clayface. No one else could've worked in this movie besides Bane and Catwoman. |
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#29 |
Hathaway #1
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I see what Nolan means in this context. The context of having to pick a villain with only one film remaining. Nolan wanted to bring the king of their respective field to the table. In TDK, we had The Joker. He gave mind games as well as the added bonus of total chaos. The Riddler does this in a different way with riddles. But even still, Nolan would've found it too close to comfort and not threatening in the same all out way. Even if he made him so, to him, he's already covered that part. He wanted to explore a totally different aspect. And the opposite of that is strength, and instead of chaos, total control with military precision.
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#30 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,288
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I think it was mentioned eariler, however I too would have liked to have seen Nolan's take on the other villians. If nothing else, would have loved to have seen who Nolan would have chosen if he had used the Riddler or Penguin. If nothing else, it would have been cool to see what the costume designer Lindy Hemming would have came up for their designs.
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#31 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London, England.
Posts: 16,040
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Link to this interview?
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#32 |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 23,536
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"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked." |
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#33 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London, England.
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Well, it's a shame that he'd sell them all short like that, to say the least. I agree with his choice of villain, though.
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#34 | |
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"Nobody cared who I was until I put on this top hat, monocle and cigarette holder..." |
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#35 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2009
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I mean how can you follow a menacing bane with a squawking dwarf or green suit/ bowler hat wearing menace? I actually think nolan could have worked quite well with bringing these characters to life if he chose to but it'll be hard seeing them as serious threats imo. |
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#36 |
Vigilante Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Bat-Garage
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I guess I'm repeating myself here, but if Nolan is saying anything about the villains in his recent interviews it's that they all have some sort of archetype that they fall under. In order to bring something fresh to the franchise he's tackling a different archetype, that being Bane. The Penguin, at least in his more recent incarnations, is simply a mobster running around town, and we've already had a ton of that in the films to make it seem fresh.
Catwoman is perfect in this regard since she is, ostensibly, the femme fatale, and Nolan's realistic/noir take on the Batman mythos has been sort of missing that archetype altogether. That isn't to say that he's using Catwoman because he's run out of characters or anything like that. It makes sense to the story, especially after Rachel's death. Bane is easily understood as the next big villain because he is a natural escalation to Batman's classic rogues gallery - that's Knightfall pretty much down the middle. A big-bad who manipulates the entire collection of baddies to get to his goal, and succeeds. To an extent, Hush would have been equally suitable in this regard. But Nolan had that other criterion to fill: the "final chapter" angle. And Bane did come across in a story that promised a sort of finality to Batman that Hush or Strange could never establish. It all works pretty well in hindsight. And for what its worth, I hope WB doesn't release another Batman film in a good long while... there are so many other franchises they can work on. Don't bore the audience away with just one kind of meal. Realistic, detective-vigilantism isn't the only kind of super-heroism out there! |
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#37 |
Wild Cherry
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Batman is what we need. Unfortunately, WB fumbled the Green Lantern franchise (which had great potential and still does). Superman? Yes he's an icon and the next film is shaping up pretty nicely, but who else? Flash? Martian Manhunter? Aquaman? These heroes can never be what the Batman is.
No one else captivates us like the Dark Knight. Sure, some heroes may dazzle us with their flashy powers and colorful villains, but in the end, Batman needs to be there. Even the entire Justice League is boring without Batman, although he realistically has no place hanging out with gods and space cops. Yes, its nice to have other "flavors" to change it up, but Batman is like your favorite chinese take-out. Hits the spot every time. |
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#38 |
Vigilante Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Yeah but I don't want to eat Chinese every day of the week. And I'll probably never agree with you that those other characters CAN'T be the same marketable awesomeness that Batman has been :P
The Man of Steel The Flash Wonder Woman Green Lantern Even the crazy, conspiracy-theorist Martian Manhunter. You telling me that people won't pay to see that? Hell no. And there are other mainstream DC properties as well who are outside of the JLA. The episodes in the animated show where Batman wasn't present were never boring. And the greater point is that between the famous superheroes of DC, like Supes, WW, Flash, and GL, Batman is really, really overused by WB. I love it, I'm a fan of Bats, and always will be. But I'd like a good long break from his cinematic, live-action escapades and watch some other superhero after TDKR. I don't want an immediate reboot after the amazing trilogy that Nolan's constructed. |
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#39 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NYC
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i do think riddler would have been a watered down version of NOLAN's joker. In the comics they are different enough.
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#40 |
Wild Cherry
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Are they really? I was never impressed with the Riddler. I mean, what does he really do? His whole thing is to prove he's more intelligent than the Batman, but his crimes are rarely very dangerous or threatening, and he's usually easily apprehended by Batman. The Joker..Two-Face...Ra's al Ghul, now, if one of those three made a threat, I'd be scared. They mean business.
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#41 | |
Wild Cherry
Join Date: Nov 2011
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#42 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I have to admit I wasn't really excited about this movie as I was for TDK just because Bane isn't really one of my fave Bat villians ( though I do like him and the Knight Fall arch). I would have much rather seen Riddler, Pengiun, or Hugo Strange, Black Mask, or even DeadShot and DeathStroke in the film over Bane.
Even Mr Freeze could be done in a realistic way sorta. I saw a story on Extreme Home Make Over a few years ago, about a family who had daughter with a medical condition that required her to wear a vest with some sort of coolant in it to keep her body from over heating. That could be one way to make him a bit more realistic. Anyway, after seeing this new trailer I am sold on Bane now and I more excited than ever to see this! Bring on July lol! Last edited by ShadowBoxer; 12-22-2011 at 02:03 PM. |
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#43 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Nolan understands the pure essence and meaning of all the characters he has used. So he actually BOILS these characters down to their most MEANINGFUL story attributes, removing the crap, and makes them STRONGER. In fact all his villains, including in some cases their slight alterations have all (IMO) been superior improvements. Whether from a character background perspective, a psychological perspective, a visual perspective. Bane - VASTLY improved character from an interesting background perspective, a VASTLY improved character from an aesthetics perspective (WAY, WAY more interesting), and we've yet to see the psychology perspective but I'm sure that is a vast improvement as well. His maks almost being a muzzle for such a violent, animalistic type character. The calm of his walk and gaze a startling conflict to the BRUTALITY that lurks beneath the surface. the Joker - VASTLY improved character from a visual perspective and psychological. I'll explain. In the comics, the all white body works. In the real world, specifically referencing B89 ... his skin LOOKS like white makeup. You can even see it rubbing off on his shirts. So if you're bringin these comics or cartoons into the real world, with REAL people, in REAL settings ... you have to tweak them for the medium. The white makeup on the face, with the flesh toned neck makes the clown face POP even more. Ledger's Joker wearing makeup to me is an improvement from an aesthetics perspective, and from a psychological perspective. Batman didn't "create" the Joker LITERALLY (and over simplified) by dropping him in acid. Rather it's "war paint" ... Batman's appearance in Gotham has INSPIRED freaks, that have now put the city in danger. Makes Batman feel even more a sense of regret or guilt that he has inspired such madness. The sloppy makeup, black eyes, smeared on bright red lipstick over such a vicious scar is visually arresting and quite frankly more intimidating image. And as you can see it might be the most popular visual interpretation of the character. It has bombarded pop culture since 2007. I like that Nolan's Joker looks dirty, dresses eccentric (not fancy), as it relfects a YOUTHFUL, and natural rebeliousness against society. I like the grungy, street feel ... as if seemingly from nowehere (akin to John Doe from Se7en) that this "wild card" just appeared from the gutters of Gotham. He looks dirty, he looks derranged, his teeth are yellow ... I like the more unkept look of the Joker. It reflects rebeliousness, crazy and chaotic nature better. I never understood why the Joker should be potrayed, given his psychological nature of being nihlistic, as being someone who would care about societal norms such as looks and be potrayed in a physical VEIN or appealing way. He has this giant scar, or deformity making him perpetually smiling, but he cares about looking nice? Umm, I don't get it. Being eccentric with his dress is one thing, being vein about it doesn't reflect the character's psychology to me as well as it could. Alex from a Clockwork Orange + John Doe from Se7en + Johnny Rotten + Comic book Joker = One of the best and sickest movie villains of ALL TIME. |
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#44 | ||
239-Bean Irish Chili
Join Date: Dec 2005
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#45 | ||
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And it's more about punk, grunge, rebelious, youthful, eccentic, against societal norms psychological perspective on the Joker. He thinks society and what they live by is a joke, so why dress to what they consider standards? They actually toyed with giving the Joker his classic purple suit coat, suspenders, dress pants and GASP ... a t-shirt. And the look still would've made sense. It was a shirt that Hemming had an idea for that I believe kept interchanging the words laughter, and slaughter on it. Could've been just as cool. Not as iconic, but cool and would make sense. There was actually a design for the Joker with what seemed like winter time with a scarf that if Ledger was alive for TDK Rises, would've made for a great winter time image. ![]() Quote:
I don't agree with the Joker being vein, though. It's counter-intuative to what the character represents. |
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#46 | ||||
239-Bean Irish Chili
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Yes, but you also mentioned it doesn't have a sense of polish or fancifulness to it, when it does in it's own twisted way. It's not torn or too disheveled, it's not dirty unless it's right after a fight. I think perhaps the colors give it a sort of grungy feel that, say, lack suits with white shirts may not...but that wouldn't quite look right on any Joker. Put it this way...he looks more 'Mod' than 'Grunge' to me, attire-wise....with both being anchored in rebellion et al, but the former having more 'neatness' to it. Quote:
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#47 | |||
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Not really. It's always dirty. He lets the makeup rot, the coat is dirty, his hands have what look like makeup and blood on it. Nolan said looking at him you should even get the sense he smells bad. That isn't vanity in the SLIGHTEST. Quote:
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He has arrogance of his actions. Calling it out on TV before it happens, because it makes it a GAME with Batman. But he's not vein at all. |
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#48 | ||||
239-Bean Irish Chili
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Again, if there is, it's buried down deep somewhere and isn't something that his actual fashion is addressing. Quote:
So I don't see it as being purposely 'grungy' or unkempt. It has its own sense of order, but not for the purposes of him 'looking nice'. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't be a tie, and button down, and vest, and.....you know what I mean. ![]()
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#49 |
The First and Best
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I love Nolan's Batman, but at the same time I can't wait for a fresh look at the movie franchise. Somebody has to have the skill to make an intelligent movie while still keeping the comic book stuff. More true to the books.
Imagine a Joker like the one in the Red hood movie. |
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#50 | |
Haters to the Left.
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HEATH LEDGER | Always My Joker. "They did not save your life...they stole it." - Kuze, Ghost in the Shell (2017)
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