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Old 12-22-2011, 11:45 PM   #101
theMan-Bat
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
And the episode was probably written way before that. So this doesn't really prove or disprove anything.
It proves that he didn't copy any ideas from the cartoon, since the cartoon hadn't even aired yet.

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But I don't think he got it from there, Frank Miller just didn't have a clue and didn't bother to do some research, the same happened in "Year One".
Frank Miller was aware that he was making changes to Batman's history. But as Miller stated in Amazing Heroes #102 (1986), "I'm doing nothing that violates major aspects of continuity. I'm embellishing his beginning. You might say that the first issue of Batman: Year One takes place between panels of the old 'Batman: Who He Is And How He Came To Be' (in Detective Comics #33) and the rest of Batman: Year One takes place between that the first story (in Detective Comics #27). I like not betraying the original material because I think it's to good to betray." Frank Miller explained, "Denny O'Neil and I agreed that it wasn't necessary to start Batman over, to scrap continuity, because the character didn't seem to need it." Year One explicitly contradicts only a few Batman tales before 1986. Which means that most of them were left still intact. Frank Miller definitely had knowledge of Batman history as he brought Batman closer to his Golden Age roots. First is the use of the bat emblem on his chest without the yellow moon in Batman The Dark Knight Returns. In the Golden Age this was the standard. Batman carrying and using guns, which hadn't been seen since 1940. Frank Miller brought back Robin's sling shot which had not been seen since 1940. The gadgets and bat vehicles which had been toned way down in the '70s. Batman originally was a terror striking creature of the night wanted by the police. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One returned to that concept.

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Old 12-22-2011, 11:49 PM   #102
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
Except for his rejection of Clark Kent, his Superman is very much the Donner movie version-the Krypton is as close as they could make it and would have been the same if they could have,
No, Geoff Johns' Krypton in Superman: Secret Origin is much closer to Donner's version than John Byrne's Krypton in The Man of Steel is.

John Byrne explained, "Oddly, the one thing in my version that most people seem to think was heavily inspired by the movie, my portrayal of Krypton, was not at all. I came from an entirely different direction, looking for that "look". I even went so far as to make "my" Krypton a desert work, so as not to be "confused" with the ice planet of the movie."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...id=151=article

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Superman himself was very naive and overly Boy Scout-the "Big Blue Boy Scout" was never a part of the classic Superman.
John Byrne did not portray Superman as very naive. Being overly Boy Scout-like was a part of the classic Superman. Superman iconically was very patriotic. Superman had been law-abidingly involved with the Metropolis Police Department and with Sargent Casey in particular in the comics by Jerry Siegel since the early '40s and Superman was involved with Inspector Henderson in particular on the Superman radio show beginning in 1940 and in the '50s on the iconic Adventures of Superman television series. In the comics was awarded Metropolis's Outstanding Citizen Award in Superman #93 (1954) "Jimmy Olsen's Double." It is revealed that Superman was awarded honorary citizenship in all of the countries in the United Nations in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." It is revealed in Action Comics #285 (1962) "The World's Greatest Heroine!" that Superman was awarded a special golden certificate by the United Nations giving him with the legal authority to apprehend criminals in U.N. member nations. For years Superman has been involved legally with the police (Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard", and many others), as well as the U.S. Army (Superman #23 (1943) "America's Secret Weapon", and many others), the U.S. Navy (Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs", and many others), the F.B.I (Superman #25 (1943) "The Man Superman Refused to Help", and others), the U.S. Treasury Department (Superman #102 (1956) "Superman For Sale"), the Secret Service (Action Comics #256 (1959) "Superman of the Future") and U.S. Presidents (Superman #107 (1964) "Superman's Mission for President Kennedy").
The Superman School for Officers' Training, the nations largest Army officers training center, constructed single-handedly by Superman, at super-speed, as a favor to the U.S. Army in Action Comics #210 (1943) "Make Way For Fate!" Superman has held the rank of General in the U.S. Army in Superman #133 (1959) "Superman Joins the Army!" Metropolis police and the general public can summon Superman into action by contacting Clark Kent, widely known as Superman's friend, usually at the Daily Planet (as seen in Superman #57 (1949) "The Son of Superman!" and many others), or Metropolis police can summon Superman with the aid of the Super-Signal, a searchlight that casts a circle of light against the sky containing a red stylized "S" insignia patterned after the one on Superman's costume (as seen in World's Finest Comics #76 (1955) "When Gotham City Challenged Superman", etc.) or by means of a large loudspeaker mounted atop the roof of Metropolis police headquarters (as seen in Superman #114 (1957) "Soundproof Superman", etc.), and it's revealed that every nation knows how to get in touch with Superman through the White House in Action Comics #306 (1963) "The Great Superman Impersonation". In Action Comics #207 (1955) "The Four Superman Medals!" it is revealed that each year, in Superman's honor, the Metropolis Police Department awards a Superman Medal "to the person who's heroism helped Superman the most" during the proceeding year. Superman performs a dazzling performance of super-powered feats at the Policeman's Benefit Show at Metropolis Stadium in Superman #133 (1959) "The Super-Luck of Badge 77". At the ceremonies marking Police Day at Metropolis Stadium, Superman presented a gigantic police badge to the Metropolis police force in Superman #160 (1963) "The Super-Cop of Metropolis". The key to the city has been awarded to Superman by the mayor of Metropolis (Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom"). Metropolis celebrates Superman Day (as seen in Superman #157 (1962) "Superman's Day of Doom", Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom" and Action Comics #594 (1987) "All that Glisters"). Two commemorative stamps have been issued in Superman's honor, one by the U.S. Government in Superman #91 (1954) "The Superman Stamp!" and the other by the city of Rangoon, Burma in Superman #153 (1962) "The Secret of the Superman Stamp!"

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The sad thing is one way or another, he wanted to show Superman being incompetent. Not that Superboy didn't make mistakes-he did-but the main thing seems to be that Byrne was wanting to deconstruct Superman by having him "learn the ropes", not unlike how Miller did with Batman, I suppose. That is something that can be done well, but also needs to be handled with caution. Regardless, it is there in his own words: "I wish I had had Superboy to fill that role."
John Byrne said, "I wanted to drop Superboy because he was not part of the original mythos."
He wanted to show Superman being closer to the original Jerry Siegel version that was published in the Golden Age. Superboy was a recon to Superman's publication history and the Superboy DC eventually published was largely written by Don Cameron, without the input or approval of Jerry Siegel.

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Well, you don't get it, I suppose.
Well, the advice was rendered pointless by Superboy's heroic adventures, actually.

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Unless it's praise.
Not if it's inaccurate praise at the expense of others. Such as the inaccurate praise that Batman had been campy throughout the Bronze Age comics and it was solely Frank Miller who brought Batman back to the dark roots, which isn't true. Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and many others had been returning Batman back to the dark roots since the '70s.

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No, although he did write Superboy later on in the 60's.
Under Mort Weisigner's control.

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It came off like you were claiming that Batman (as a franchise) outsold Superman (as a franchise) in the 60's and you were called out by me and several other people for that.
I was admittedly vague, because I was pressed for time, and was misunderstood because I didn't explain what I meant in detail. I've repeatedly explained what I meant since, I've even apologized from not explaining in more detail in the first place.

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The top selling comics of the 50's were Dell's Walt Disney comics. And while much of what is associated with Superman came from the 30's-50's, of course, the most fruitful and iconic period of his existence is the 1959-1970 Weisinger period, especially the early 60's when Jerry Siegel came back and wrote his best stories ever. My personal favorite Superman eras are the Golden and Bronze Ages, but there is no question that the Silver Age Superman is the most iconic.
Most of the fruitful and iconic Superman characters, powers, and elements came from the '30s, '40s and '50s, which scopes the Golden Age and Silver Age.
Superman/Clark Kent first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first flew, rather than just leaping, in Superman #10 (1941) "The Talent Agency Fraud" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used super-strength in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Bullets first bounced off Superman's chest in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first smashes through a brick wall in Action Comics #12 (1939) "Traffic Safety" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first bends a gun out of shape in Superman #1 (1939) "Prelude to 'Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first crushes a lump of coal into a diamond in Action Comics #115 (1947) "The Wish That Came True" by Alvin Schwartz.
Superman first survives an atomic exposition in Action Comics #124 (1948) "A Superman of Doom."
Superman first used super-speed in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used super-hearing in Superman #2 (1939) "Superman and the Skyscrapers" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used x-ray and microscopic vision in Superman #11 (1939) "The Corinthville Caper" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first used heat vision in Action Comics #139 (1949) "Clark Kent..Daredevil" by Bill Woolfolk.
Superman first burrows through the ground in Superman #11 (1941) "Zimba's Gold Badge Terrorists" by Jerry Siegel.
It's first stated that Superman can hold his breath of hours in Action Comics #15 (1939).
Superman first used super-breath in Action Comics #20 (1940) "Superman in Hollywood" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman first inhaled chemicals by momentarily drawing air in a room into his lungs in Superman #60 (1949) "The Men Who Had to Guard Superman" by Bill Finger.
Superman first freezes something with his breath in World's Finest Comics #64 (1953) "The Death of Lois Lane" by William Woolfolk.
Superman first changed his clothes in a phone both in Superman #60 (1949) "Superman Fights the Super-Brain" by Don Cameron.
Superman first changed his clothes in the storage room at the Daily Planet in Action Comics #181 (1953) "The New Superman."
Lois Lane first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Jimmy Olsen's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #15 (1942) "The Cop Who Was Ruined" by Jerry Siegel.
Perry White's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
The Daily Planet name first appeared in the comics in Superman #4 (1940) "Superman versus Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
Superman's city was first called Metropolis in Action Comics #16 (1939) "The Gambling Expose" by Jerry Siegel.
Luthor first appeared bald in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
Krypton first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
Jor-El and Lara first appeared in the comic books in Superman #53 (1948) "The Origin of Superman" by Bill Finger.
Kryptonite first appeared in the comics in Superman #61 (1949) "Superman Returns To Krypton" by Bill Finger.
The Kents first appeared in Superman #1 (1939) "Origin of Superman" by Jerry Siegel.
The place Superman was raised was first called Smallville in Superboy #2 (1949) "Don't Miss The Stunts of Superboy."
Lana Lang first appeared in Superman #10 (1950) "The Girl in Superboy's Life" by Bill Finger.
Mr. Mxyztplk first appeared in Superman #30 (1944) "The Mysterious Mr. Mxyztplk" by Jerry Siegel. His name first appeared as the more iconic spelling of Mr. Mxyzptlk in Action Comics #208 (1955) "The Magic of Mr. Mxyztplk" by William Woolfolk.
The Prankster first appeared in Action Comics #51 (1942) "The Case of the Crimeless Crimes" by Jerry Siegel.
Toyman first appeared in Action Comics #64 (1943) "The Terrible Toyman" by Don Cameron.
Brainiac first appeared in Action Comics #242 (1958) "The Super-Duel in Space" by Otto Binder.
Bizarro first appeared in Superboy #68 (1958) "The Thing of Steel" by Otto Binder.
The John Corben Metallo first appeared in Action Comics #252 (1959) "The Menace of Metallo" by Robert Bernstein.
Titano first appeared in Superman #127 (1959) "Titano the Super-Ape" by Jerry Coleman.
Jimmy Olsen's signal watch first appeared in Action Comics #238 (1958) "The Super-Gorilla" by Otto Binder.
Lori Lemaris first appeared in Superman #129 (1959) "The Girl in Superman's Past" by Bill Finger.
Lucy Lane first appeared in Jimmy Olsen #36 (1959) "Lois Lane's Sister" by Otto Binder.
The Fortress of Solitude first appeared in Superman #58 (1949) "The Case of the Second Superman". The giant key to the Fortress of Solitude first appeared in Action Comics #241 (1958) "The Super-Key to Fort Superman" by Jerry Coleman.
Superboy first appeared in More Fun Comics #101 (1945) "The Origin of Superboy."
Superboy began teaming with the Legion of Super-Heroes in Adventure Comics #247 (1958) "The Legion of Super-Heroes" by Otto Binder.
Supergirl first appeared in Action Comics #252 (1959) "The Supergirl from Krypton" by Otto Binder.
Krypto first appeared in Adventure Comics #210 (1955) "The Superdog from Krypton" by Otto Binder.

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Yes, but they were never as big as the Batman TV show briefly was. I feel those shows did well because of the popularity and quality of the Superman comics of the time, not the other way around, as was the case with Batmania. Not that the Schwartz/Fox/Finger/Infantino/Giella etc Batman of that time wasn't really good, because quite a bit of it was, and a big improvement over the Jack Schiff edited Batman of the late 50's-early 60's. Although I think those comics get kind of a bum rap.
The Adventures of Superman show starring George Reeves was very successful, lasting for six seasons from 1952 to 1958, and was going to have a seventh season until the tragic death of George Reeves. That show definitely helped boost the popularity of Superman, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen and the sales Superman comic books and merchandise. Jack Larson made Jimmy Olsen more popular and it was explained in the documentary Look, Up in the Sky! The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), that largely because of the popularity of Jack Larson's portrayal of Jimmy Olsen, DC decided to create a regular title featuring Jimmy as the leading character in 1954. Mort Weisinger and Whitney Ellsworth even wanted to do a Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen spin-off television show after George Reeves' death, and reuse stock footage of George Reeves from the Adventures of Superman, but Jack Larson refused the offer, disgusted by the idea.
Many Superman comics were even adaptions of episodes of the Adventures of Superman television series. DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was also the producer of The Adventures of Superman television series and DC's Superman comics editor Mort Weisinger was also the story editor of The Adventures of Superman television series.
World's Finest Comics #68 (January, 1954) "The Menace From The Stars" is a loose adaption of the episode "Panic In The Sky" by Roy Hamilton, which aired on December 5th, 1953.
Superman #88 (March, 1954) "The Dog Who Loved Superman" by Jerry Coleman is an adaption of the episode "The Dog Who Knew Superman" by David Chantler, which aired on November 14th, 1953.
Superman #91 (August, 1954) "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Bill Woolfolk is an adaption of the episode "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on May 21st, 1955.
Action Comics #200 (January, 1955) "Test of a Warrior" is an adaption of the episode "Test of a Warrior" by Leroy H. Zehren, which aired on May 28th, 1955.
Superman #96 (March, 1955) "The Girl Who Didn't Believe In Superman" by Bill Finger is a loose adaption of the episode "Around The World With Superman" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on March 13th, 1954.

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Last edited by theMan-Bat; 10-31-2012 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:09 AM   #103
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
No, Geoff Johns' Krypton in Superman: Secret Origin is much closer to Donner's version than John Byrne's Krypton in The Man of Steel is.

John Byrne explained, "Oddly, the one thing in my version that most people seem to think was heavily inspired by the movie, my portrayal of Krypton, was not at all. I came from an entirely different direction, looking for that "look". I even went so far as to make "my" Krypton a desert work, so as not to be "confused" with the ice planet of the movie."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...id=151=article
John Byrne, 1986:

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Originally Posted by John Byrne
Byrne has previously stated that he wanted to "update" the look of Krypton, which he claimed remained "stuck" in a 1930s Buck Rogers-like art style for decades. "I liked the cold, antiseptic Krypton that I saw in the movie, but we couldn't do it for copyright reasons. So Dick and Jenette said, 'Redesign Krypton. That's the first thing that we're going to see in the new series. The very first page should tell us that everything is different."
http://superman.nu/theages/History/end.php

I don't like Geoff Johns' movie style Krypton at all, either. I only like classic, Flash Gordon style Krypton.

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John Byrne did not portray Superman as very naive. Being overly Boy Scout-like was a part of the classic Superman. Superman iconically was very patriotic. Superman had been law-abidingly involved with the Metropolis Police Department and with Sargent Casey in particular in the comics by Jerry Siegel since the early '40s and Superman was involved with Inspector Henderson in particular on the Superman radio show beginning in 1940 and in the '50s on the iconic Adventures of Superman television series. In the comics was awarded Metropolis's Outstanding Citizen Award in Superman #93 (1954) "Jimmy Olsen's Double." It is revealed that Superman was awarded honorary citizenship in all of the countries in the United Nations in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." It is revealed in Action Comics #285 (1962) "The World's Greatest Heroine!" that Superman was awarded a special golden certificate by the United Nations giving him with the legal authority to apprehend criminals in U.N. member nations. For years Superman has been involved legally with the police (Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard", and many others), as well as the U.S. Army (Superman #23 (1943) "America's Secret Weapon", and many others), the U.S. Navy (Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs", and many others), the F.B.I (Superman #25 (1943) "The Man Superman Refused to Help", and others), the U.S. Treasury Department (Superman #102 (1956) "Superman For Sale"), the Secret Service (Action Comics #256 (1959) "Superman of the Future") and U.S. Presidents (Superman #107 (1964) "Superman's Mission for President Kennedy").
The Superman School for Officers' Training, the nations largest Army officers training center, constructed single-handedly by Superman, at super-speed, as a favor to the U.S. Army in Action Comics #210 (1943) "Make Way For Fate!" Superman has held the rank of General in the U.S. Army in Superman #133 (1959) "Superman Joins the Army!" Metropolis police and the general public can summon Superman into action by contacting Clark Kent, widely known as Superman's friend, usually at the Daily Planet (as seen in Superman #57 (1949) "The Son of Superman!" and many others), or Metropolis police can summon Superman with the aid of the Super-Signal, a searchlight that casts a circle of light against the sky containing a red stylized "S" insignia patterned after the one on Superman's costume (as seen in World's Finest Comics #76 (1955) "When Gotham City Challenged Superman", etc.) or by means of a large loudspeaker mounted atop the roof of Metropolis police headquarters (as seen in Superman #114 (1957) "Soundproof Superman", etc.), and it's revealed that every nation knows how to get in touch with Superman through the White House in Action Comics #306 (1963) "The Great Superman Impersonation". In Action Comics #207 (1955) "The Four Superman Medals!" it is revealed that each year, in Superman's honor, the Metropolis Police Department awards a Superman Medal "to the person who's heroism helped Superman the most" during the proceeding year. Superman performs a dazzling performance of super-powered feats at the Policeman's Benefit Show at Metropolis Stadium in Superman #133 (1959) "The Super-Luck of Badge 77". At the ceremonies marking Police Day at Metropolis Stadium, Superman presented a gigantic police badge to the Metropolis police force in Superman #160 (1963) "The Super-Cop of Metropolis". The key to the city has been awarded to Superman by the mayor of Metropolis (Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom"). Metropolis celebrates Superman Day (as seen in Superman #157 (1962) "Superman's Day of Doom", Action Comics #328 (1965) "Superman's Hands of Doom" and Action Comics #594 (1987) "All that Glisters"). Two commemorative stamps have been issued in Superman's honor, one by the U.S. Government in Superman #91 (1954) "The Superman Stamp!" and the other by the city of Rangoon, Burma in Superman #153 (1962) "The Secret of the Superman Stamp!"
And he had been at odds with the authorities before that, and he was still hunted by police when Batman and Robin were officially deputized, but you cherrypick and ignore that fact. All DC heroes were law-abiding good guys by the early 40's, even the Spectre and Hawkman, who were the most wanton killers before that.

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John Byrne said, "I wanted to drop Superboy because he was not part of the original mythos."
He wanted to show Superman being closer to the original Jerry Siegel version that was published in the Golden Age. Superboy was a recon to Superman's publication history and the Superboy DC eventually published was largely written by Don Cameron, without the input or approval of Jerry Siegel.
But he would have been, had Siegel gotten his way. But that is just as much DC's mistake as Byrne's-he did say he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity, and Alan Moore actually cautioned the upper brass at DC against throwing out the classic Superman for they risked alienating their most loyal readers. And they did lose a fair share of them, (although they kept suckers like me).

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Well, the advice was rendered pointless by Superboy's heroic adventures, actually.
To me, the scene as originated by Bill Finger, who was a father, was more of an example of how parents stay parents until the very end-even on his deathbed, Jonathan Kent was being Clark's father.

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Not if it's inaccurate praise at the expense of others. Such as the inaccurate praise that Batman had been campy throughout the Bronze Age comics and it was solely Frank Miller who brought Batman back to the dark roots, which isn't true. Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and many others had been returning Batman back to the dark roots since the '70s.
Agree with you here, but I've never seen you criticize anything Miller has done.

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Under Mort Weisigner's control.
He still did it, and his stories he wrote for Mort were his best stories ever, IMO.

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I was admittedly vague, because I was pressed for time, and was misunderstood because I didn't explain what I meant in detail. I've repeatedly explained what I meant since, I've even apologized from not explaining in more detail in the first place.
Fair enough.

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The Adventures of Superman show starring George Reeves was very successful, lasting for six seasons from 1952 to 1958, and was going to have a seventh season until the tragic death of George Reeves. That show definitely helped boost the popularity of Superman, Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen and the sales Superman comic books and merchandise. Jack Larson made Jimmy Olsen more popular and it was explained in the documentary Look, Up in the Sky! The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), that largely because of the popularity of Jack Larson's portrayal of Jimmy Olsen, DC decided to create a regular title featuring Jimmy as the leading character in 1954. Mort Weisinger and Whitney Ellsworth even wanted to do a Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen spin-off television show after George Reeves' death, and reuse stock footage of George Reeves from the Adventures of Superman, but Jack Larson refused the offer, disgusted by the idea.
http://www.glasshousepresents.com/hof_JLarson.htm
Many Superman comics were even adaptions of episodes of the Adventures of Superman television series. DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was also the producer of The Adventures of Superman television series and DC's Superman comics editor Mort Weisinger was also the story editor of The Adventures of Superman television series.
World's Finest Comics #68 (January, 1954) "The Menace From The Stars" is a loose adaption of the episode "Panic In The Sky" by Roy Hamilton, which aired on December 5th, 1953.
Superman #88 (March, 1954) "The Dog Who Loved Superman" by Jerry Coleman is an adaption of the episode "The Dog Who Knew Superman" by David Chantler, which aired on November 14th, 1953.
Superman #91 (August, 1954) "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Bill Woolfolk is an adaption of the episode "Great Caesar's Ghost" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on May 21st, 1955.
Action Comics #200 (January, 1955) "Test of a Warrior" is an adaption of the episode "Test of a Warrior" by Leroy H. Zehren, which aired on May 28th, 1955.
Superman #96 (March, 1955) "The Girl Who Didn't Believe In Superman" by Bill Finger is a loose adaption of the episode "Around The World With Superman" by Jackson Gillis, which aired on March 13th, 1954.
Never said it wasn't, but it was never on the Batman series first season level of popularity. I thought it was a great show given the effects limitations of the time. And it had much more lasting power than the Batman TV series, although it may have lasted longer had they not demolished the sets and NBC had picked it up.

The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series, aside from it's over very positive influence on the comics themselves, was the later on success of syndicated original shows, best represented by Star Trek TNG, Xena and Hercules. And also the syndicated Superboy series.

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Old 12-23-2011, 07:20 AM   #104
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
It proves that he didn't copy any ideas from the cartoon, since the cartoon hadn't even aired yet.
The episode didn't air yet, but was in production way before that and you know, Warner Bros. owns DC and Brennert and Miller might know each other. You cannot rule this out.

Mr Man-Bat, you'd be a lousy detective.


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Frank Miller was aware that he was making changes to Batman's history. But as Miller stated in Amazing Heroes #102 (1986), "I'm doing nothing that violates major aspects of continuity. I'm embellishing his beginning. You might say that the first issue of Batman: Year One takes place between panels of the old 'Batman: Who He Is And How He Came To Be' (in Detective Comics #33) and the rest of Batman: Year One takes place between that the first story (in Detective Comics #27). I like not betraying the original material because I think it's to good to betray." Frank Miller explained, "Denny O'Neil and I agreed that it wasn't necessary to start Batman over, to scrap continuity, because the character didn't seem to need it." Year One explicitly contradicts only a few Batman tales before 1986. Which means that most of them were left still intact. Frank Miller definitely had knowledge of Batman history as he brought Batman closer to his Golden Age roots. First is the use of the bat emblem on his chest without the yellow moon in Batman The Dark Knight Returns. In the Golden Age this was the standard. Batman carrying and using guns, which hadn't been seen since 1940. Frank Miller brought back Robin's sling shot which had not been seen since 1940. The gadgets and bat vehicles which had been toned way down in the '70s. Batman originally was a terror striking creature of the night wanted by the police. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One returned to that concept.
Miller made Gordon much younger.
Gordon is not from Gotham City.
Miller didn't feature a friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon.
He originally wanted to make the child of Gordon a girl (Barbara Gordon, batgirl), but then someone pointed out that she would be way too young.
He made Alfred the old family retainer.
Batman did face the Joker for the first time with Robin, not alone.
Gordon was not an adulterer.
Catwoman was not a dominatrix and was called "The Cat".

And so on. Like he did with "The Spirit" he just didn't even bother.

Of course, Denny O'Neil didn't even bother to stop him ("best Batman editor ever", LOL) - a little bit of tweaking would have kept the old stuff truly in canon. (I guess, Mr ManBat, that would have been "censorship" according to you)


Last edited by TruerToTheCore; 12-23-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:32 PM   #105
theMan-Bat
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
The episode didn't air yet, but was in production way before that and you know, Warner Bros. owns DC and Brennert and Miller might know each other. You cannot rule this out.

Mr Man-Bat, you'd be a lousy detective.
Heh, you underestimate me.

The Super Friends cartoons were made by Hanna-Barbara Productions, Inc., for the ABC television network. Hanna-Barbera had acquired the rights to adapted the Warner/DC characters for television. Frank Miller had nothing to do with Hanna-Barbara or ABC and certainly was not a Super Friends fan. Alan Brennert and Frank Miller definitely were not pals. Brennert hated Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. As reported in Comics Journal #111 (September, 1986), on June 27, 1986, Alan Brennert called into Harlan Ellison's Hour 25 radio talk show which was broadcast on Los Angeles KPFK (90.7 FM):



Quote:
Miller made Gordon much younger.
Gordon is not from Gotham City.
Miller didn't feature a friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon.
He originally wanted to make the child of Gordon a girl (Barbara Gordon, batgirl), but then someone pointed out that she would be way too young.
He made Alfred the old family retainer.
Batman did face the Joker for the first time with Robin, not alone.
Gordon was not an adulterer.
Catwoman was not a dominatrix and was called "The Cat".

And so on. Like he did with "The Spirit" he just didn't even bother.

Of course, Denny O'Neil didn't even bother to stop him ("best Batman editor ever", LOL) - a little bit of tweaking would have kept the old stuff truly in canon. (I guess, Mr ManBat, that would have been "censorship" according to you)
As I acknowledged, Frank Miller was making changes to Batman's history, yet, Miller's Batman: Year One left most previous Batman stories intact. Gordon's age wasn't specified in those early Finger and Kane stories. Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns featured a friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon and Frank Miller's Batman: Year One featured a developing friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon as Bruce saved Gordon's baby. Frank Miller obviously changed the baby to James Junior. I already pointed out that Frank Miller made Alfred the person who raised Bruce. Batman isn't shown facing the Joker in Batman: Year One. The Joker was only referenced as somebody threatening to poison the water. That does not mean the early Finger and Kane Joker stories couldn't have also happened. Gordon's love life was not stated in the early Finger and Kane stories. Selina's origin was not stated in those early Finger and Kane stories. She first appeared without an origin and was only known as just the Cat originally, and she was never once called "Catwoman" in Batman: Year One.
As for The Spirit, Frank Miller explained: "The specific stories that made the core of this movie were three. One was 'Sand Saref' (originally published on January 8th, 1950 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #8 (1975) by Warren) the second one was 'Bring In Sand Saref' (originally published on January 15th, 1950 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #8 (1975) by Warren) which is basically a two-parter. And the other one was another story called 'Showdown' (also called "Klink vs. Octopus," originally published on August 10th, 1947 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #32 (1981) by Kitchen Sink Press), which was nothing but a bloody fight between the Spirit and the Octopus where it was demonstrated that both of them could withstand inhuman punishment, which led then to figuring out how to justify that. And that’s where the original part of the screenplay takes shape because the relationship between the Octopus and the Spirit is at the heart of the story. It allowed me to make the Spirit a man who is existentially confused about why he came back from the dead."
http://www.indielondon.co.uk/Film-Re...ller-interview
"I read a lot of Spirit comics when I was growing up, and he seemed to be able to take a cinder-block to the head better than anybody I ever heard of," Frank Miller explained. "And I just thought that the fact he took unusual punishment was a fact of the character that should be explored."
http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjourn...61b941cd53b6bd
Also, The Spirit film included homages to the classic Will Eisner Spirit stories "Plaster of Paris" (originally published on November 7th, 1948 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #11 (1975) by Warren), "Silken Floss, M.D." (originally published on March 8th, 1947 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #2 (1974) by Warren), "Lorelei Rox" (originally published on September 19th, 1948 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Art of Will Eisner (1982) by Kitchen Sink Press) and "Ten Minutes" (originally published on September 11th, 1949 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #13 (1976) by Warren). Also, homages to the "A River of Crime" splash-page (originally published on November 30th, 1947 in The Spirit newspaper strip, reprinted in The Spirit #24 (1980) by Kitchen Sink Press), and the cover of The Spirit #20 (1979) of the Spirit emerging from water by Will Eisner published by Kitchen Sink Press, and the cover of The Spirit #38 (1982) of the Spirit running on snowed rooftops by Will Eisner published by Kitchen Sink Press, and the cover of The Spirit #37 (1987) of the Spirit hit in the head by a sink by Will Eisner published by Kitchen Sink Press.
Frank Miller said, "I was just 13 years old when I came across Will Eisner's The Spirit, published by Jim Warren, and was blown away. I thought it was somebody new to comics, because it was so far ahead of anything else coming out. I felt it, religiously. There was one night when I picked up the latest issue of The Spirit, and I was so excited, I had to stop by a lamppost in Vermont where I lived and read it on the spot. That was the 'Sand Saref' story, which is now the basis of this movie."
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157...rld-life.jhtml
Gabriel Macht said, "I bought the 'Best of' The Spirit collection (published by DC in 2005). When I got to set, Frank said, 'Listen, I don't want you to look at those. I'm not crazy about the coloring.' He wasn't a fan. He liked the black and white (by Warren and Kitchen Sink Press). So he gave me his best picks, and I read through all of those Spirit comics and put them up in my trailer. You couldn't see any wall. It was all comics."
http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/new...the-spirit.php
Gabriel Macht said, "Frank felt that the movie was more in line with the black and white stuff that Eisner had published (thru Warren and Kitchen Sink Press), and we had a lot of conversations about the particulars of that. The first batch of Spirit material I read was about 200 pages worth of original black and white strips, not the colorized versions. And that was the Bible in the early stages: the mentality of Eisner, and the charm and wit and physical demeanor of the character as he created him."
http://www.mania.com/getting-into-sp...le_111693.html
And Will Eisner himself preferred The Spirit in black and white. Eisner said, “I prefer The Spirit in black and white — I prefer all of my work in black and white, to be honest with you. I believe the black line is a more pure contact with the reader. Color tends to obliterate or interfere with the flow of the story. I try very hard to make emotional contact with my reader early and to maintain an intense relationship as the story goes on. I find that anything that interferes with that is counterproductive.” (From Comic Book Artist, in an article by Jon B. Cooke)
http://comicfoundry.com/?p=820

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Old 12-23-2011, 11:34 PM   #106
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
John Byrne, 1986:

Originally Posted by John Byrne
Byrne has previously stated that he wanted to "update" the look of Krypton, which he claimed remained "stuck" in a 1930s Buck Rogers-like art style for decades. "I liked the cold, antiseptic Krypton that I saw in the movie, but we couldn't do it for copyright reasons. So Dick and Jenette said, 'Redesign Krypton. That's the first thing that we're going to see in the new series. The very first page should tell us that everything is different.'"

http://superman.nu/theages/History/end.php

I don't like Geoff Johns' movie style Krypton at all, either. I only like classic, Flash Gordon style Krypton.
I don't like Geoff Johns' shoehorning the Richard Donner movie style Krypton into the comics at all, either. It looks just as dated to the 1978 movie with the feathered hair, etc., as the Silver Age and Bronze Age Krypton looked to the 1930s Flash Gordon movie serials. I prefer The Man of Steel version by John Byrne. Byrne really updated it without just repeating Donner's version.

Quote:
And he had been at odds with the authorities before that, and he was still hunted by police when Batman and Robin were officially deputized, but you cherrypick and ignore that fact. All DC heroes were law-abiding good guys by the early 40's, even the Spectre and Hawkman, who were the most wanton killers before that.
I do not ignore early Superman stories where he was a vigilante and I do not ignore Batman being officially deputized in the comics first. Batman becoming part of the establishment in Batman #7 (1941) "The People vs. The Batman" wasn't really Bill Finger's decision. Bob Kane explained in his autobiography Batman & Me, "The editors placed increasing limitations on what Bill and I could do. The new editorial policy was to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. The whole moral climate changed after the 1940-1941 period. DC prepared it's own comics code which every writer and artist had to follow. It forbade any whippings or hangings, knifings, or sexual references. Even the word 'flick' was forbidden because the lettering (all in block capitals) might run together."
Here's some scans from that book:



DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth had created DC's own comics code in the form of an Editorial Advisory Board in 1941.
These book excerpts are from Comic Book Nation by Bradford W. Wright about the Editorial Board DC had:


And the effect on Batman:


Every DC title had a list of the Editorial Advisory Board members on the inside front cover:

http://www.thegraphicnovels.com/nsp1-21.html
http://www.english.ufl.edu/imagetext...ibit1/dc.shtml
Jerry Siegel's Superman's early vigilante actives consisted of his concerned for social issues and early attempts at social reform without having the legal authority, including traffic safety, juvenile delinquency, urban renewal. Superman also executed criminals occasionally without legal authority, but much less frequently than Batman had killed criminals.

Batman was made part of the establishment because of the new editorial policy to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. Unlike Finger and Kane's stated dislike of DC's insistence in 1941 that Batman become part of the establishment, Superman's progression into having an accepted relationship in the establishment was never stated as an issue of contention for Jerry Siegel, and Superman's gradual developing acceptance in the establishment seems more like natural character progression by Jerry Siegel since Superman wasn't forced into the establishment in 1941 like Batman had been by DC's new Editorial Advisory Board.

Bill Finger and Bob Kane made it clear that Batman would have remained an anti-establishment vigilante had Bill Finger and Bob Kane had control. But Superman wouldn't have remained the same if Jerry Siegel had complete control. Jerry Siegel's "The K-Metal from Krypton" story of Superman in 1940, with revealing his secret identity to Lois, which had been completely penciled, inked, and lettered, made it clear that Jerry Siegel was interested in evolving and changing Superman's life with character growth, relationships evolving and changing. I believe that included Superman's relationship with the establishment evolving and changing over time.

As for Superman's relationship with the establishment:
In Action Comics #1 (1938) by Jerry Siegel, the Governor says to the members of his staff about Superman, "Thank heaven he's apparently on the side of law and order!"
In Superman #13 (1941) "Baby on the Doorstep" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a captured foreign spy chief over to the police force, one of the police officers remarks admirably to Superman, "If we could only draft you into the force!"
In Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs" by Jerry Siegel, Superman aids the U.S. Navy and has thwarted an attempt by Napkan saboteurs to sink a newly christened American battleship, Navyman Hank Fox pays Superman this tribute, "How fortunate we are here in America to have someone of Superman's caliber to aid us! In my opinion, he's worth several Armies and Navies!"
In Superman #17 (1942) "When Titans Clash" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a group of Luthor's henchmen over to the police, Superman says, "Always glad to help the police!"
In Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard" by Jerry Siegel, as Superman helps the police apprehend the Leopard's henchmen, a police office remarks about Superman, "To think we once considered him outside the law!"
In Superman #22 (1943) "The Great ABC Panic" by Jerry Siegel, the nation plunges into chaos when the Prankster copyrights the English alphabet, and Clark thinks to himself, "What can I do? The Prankster has the law on his side, and I won't flout justice at any cost!"

Batman was an extremely violent vigilante, and beat up police and used an actual gun that fired bullets and killed with it, Batman killed often, and comic books were getting criticized for violence, which is why DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was so strict that Batman never use a gun again, never kill again and immediately become part of the establishment in 1941.

Denny O'Neil had returned Batman as a dark, mysterious vigilante back in the '70s Bronze Age. Michael Fleisher had returned the Spectre as a dark and vicious entity killing villains in creative and gruesome ways in the '70s Bronze Age, while Superman stayed iconically patriotic and law-abiding in the Bronze Age.

Quote:
But he would have been, had Siegel gotten his way. But that is just as much DC's mistake as Byrne's-he did say he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity, and Alan Moore actually cautioned the upper brass at DC against throwing out the classic Superman for they risked alienating their most loyal readers. And they did lose a fair share of them, (although they kept suckers like me).
Yes, John Byrne said that Dick Giordano came to him and asked him to reboot Superman, and Byrne said that he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity.

Quote:
To me, the scene as originated by Bill Finger, who was a father, was more of an example of how parents stay parents until the very end-even on his deathbed, Jonathan Kent was being Clark's father.
The deathbed advice made sense in the origin story written by Bill Finger because that origin story didn't include Superboy, so Clark hadn't already been using his powers for the good of mankind.

Quote:
Agree with you here, but I've never seen you criticize anything Miller has done.
I've never seen you criticize anything Maggin has done.

Quote:
He still did it, and his stories he wrote for Mort were his best stories ever, IMO.
Jerry Siegel's best stories were in the Golden Age, in my opinion, especially the wildly imaginative "Case of the Funny Paper Crimes," the action-packed "Bandit Robots of Metropolis," "The Beasts of Luthor", etc. Jerry Siegel still had such creative freedom to let his imagination run wild in the Golden Age.

Quote:
Never said it wasn't, but it was never on the Batman series first season level of popularity. I thought it was a great show given the effects limitations of the time. And it had much more lasting power than the Batman TV series, although it may have lasted longer had they not demolished the sets and NBC had picked it up.

The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series, aside from it's over very positive influence on the comics themselves, was the later on success of syndicated original shows, best represented by Star Trek TNG, Xena and Hercules. And also the syndicated Superboy series.
The Adventures of Superman starring George Reeves has certainly had lasting power. It's been aired in syndication for decades. In 1965 and 1966 Topps released card sets of the Adventures of Superman series starring George Reeves, rather than pictures from the '60s comics. The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series includes it's influence on The New Adventures of Superman TV series by Filmation in the '60s, the "Truth, justice and the American way" line in Donner's Superman: The Movie in 1978, John Byrne's characterization of Clark Kent in 1986, Inspector Henderson introduced into the comics in 1987, the original Superman title renamed Adventures of Superman in 1987, the Ruby-Spears Superman series using the classic introduction "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive," etc. in 1988, etc., etc.

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Old 12-24-2011, 07:03 AM   #107
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

[QUOTE=theMan-Bat;22176641]Heh, you underestimate me.

The Super Friends cartoons were made by Hanna-Barbara Productions, Inc., for the ABC television network. Hanna-Barbera had acquired the rights to adapted the Warner/DC characters for television. Frank Miller had nothing to do with Hanna-Barbara or ABC and certainly was not a Super Friends fan. Alan Brennert and Frank Miller definitely were not pals. Brennert hated Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. As reported in Comics Journal #111 (September, 1986), on June 27, 1986, Alan Brennert called into Harlan Ellison's Hour 25 radio talk show which was broadcast on Los Angeles KPFK (90.7 FM):



It was Alan Burnett, not Brennert. You wrote it correctly but I goofed and you copied it. But thanks for the info.

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Old 12-24-2011, 04:11 PM   #108
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
It was Alan Burnett, not Brennert. You wrote it correctly but I goofed and you copied it. But thanks for the info.
Their names are so similar, and they both were TV writers and writers of Batman, so it's an understandable little mix up. Anyway, I highly doubt Frank Miller read that Super Friends script by Alan Burnett or watched the cartoon. Merry Christmas to you and Kurosawa, or happy Hanukkah. There shouldn't be any hard feelings just because we have our differences.

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Old 12-24-2011, 08:02 PM   #109
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
Their names are so similar, and they both were TV writers and writers of Batman, so it's an understandable little mix up. Anyway, I highly doubt Frank Miller read that Super Friends script by Alan Burnett or watched the cartoon. Merry Christmas to you and Kurosawa, or happy Hanukkah. There shouldn't be any hard feelings just because we have our differences.
Fair enough.

Merry Christmas to you too.

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Old 12-24-2011, 09:08 PM   #110
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
Heh, you underestimate me.

The Super Friends cartoons were made by Hanna-Barbara Productions, Inc., for the ABC television network. Hanna-Barbera had acquired the rights to adapted the Warner/DC characters for television. Frank Miller had nothing to do with Hanna-Barbara or ABC and certainly was not a Super Friends fan. Alan Brennert and Frank Miller definitely were not pals. Brennert hated Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. As reported in Comics Journal #111 (September, 1986), on June 27, 1986, Alan Brennert called into Harlan Ellison's Hour 25 radio talk show which was broadcast on Los Angeles KPFK (90.7 FM):





As I acknowledged, Frank Miller was making changes to Batman's history, yet, Miller's Batman: Year One left most previous Batman stories intact. Gordon's age wasn't specified in those early Finger and Kane stories. Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns featured a friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon and Frank Miller's Batman: Year One featured a developing friendship between Bruce Wayne and Gordon as Bruce saved Gordon's baby. Frank Miller obviously changed the baby to James Junior. I already pointed out that Frank Miller made Alfred the person who raised Bruce. Batman isn't shown facing the Joker in Batman: Year One. The Joker was only referenced as somebody threatening to poison the water. That does not mean the early Finger and Kane Joker stories couldn't have also happened. Gordon's love life was not stated in the early Finger and Kane stories. Selina's origin was not stated in those early Finger and Kane stories. She first appeared without an origin and was only known as just the Cat originally, and she was never once called "Catwoman" in Batman: Year One.
As for The Spirit, Frank Miller explained: "The specific stories that made the core of this movie were three. One was 'Sand Saref' (originally published on January 8th, 1950 in The Spirit newspaper strip) the second one was 'Bring In Sand Saref' (originally published on January 15th, 1950 in The Spirit newspaper strip) which is basically a two-parter. And the other one was another story called 'Showdown' (originally published on February 4th, 1951 in The Spirit newspaper strip), which was nothing but a bloody fight between the Spirit and the Octopus where it was demonstrated that both of them could withstand inhuman punishment, which led then to figuring out how to justify that. And that’s where the original part of the screenplay takes shape because the relationship between the Octopus and the Spirit is at the heart of the story. It allowed me to make the Spirit a man who is existentially confused about why he came back from the dead."
http://www.indielondon.co.uk/Film-Re...ller-interview
Alan Burnett and Alan Brennert are two different people, but that interview you posted is awesome, and while Brennert is already one of my favorite writers, my respect for him has increased even more after that. He also added Kathy Kane to Earth-Two because O'Neil killed the Earth-One version. He's a better writer than Miller and O'Neil combined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
I don't like Geoff Johns' shoehorning the Richard Donner movie style Krypton into the comics at all, either. It looks just as dated to the 1978 movie with the feathered hair, etc., as the Silver Age and Bronze Age Krypton looked to the 1930s Flash Gordon movie serials. I prefer The Man of Steel version by John Byrne. Byrne really updated it without just repeating Donner's version.
Golden/Silver/Bronze Age Krypton is the style that Shuster intended, and I find Byrne's Krypton to be incredibly ugly, both visually and as a society. I don't like Byrne's designs much.

Quote:
I do not ignore early Superman stories where he was a vigilante and I do not ignore Batman being officially deputized in the comics first. Batman becoming part of the establishment in Batman #7 (1941) "The People vs. The Batman" wasn't really Bill Finger's decision. Bob Kane explained in his autobiography Batman & Me, "The editors placed increasing limitations on what Bill and I could you. The new editorial policy was to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. The whole moral climate changed after the 1940-1941 period. DC prepared it's own comics code which every writer and artist had to follow. It forbade any whippings or hangings, knifings, or sexual references. Even the word 'flick' was forbidden because the lettering (all in block capitals) might run together."
Here's some scans from that book:


DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth had created DC's own comics code in the form of an Editorial Advisory Board in 1941.
These book excerpts are from Comic Book Nation by Bradford W. Wright about the Editorial Board DC had:


And the effect on Batman:


Every DC title had a list of the Editorial Advisory Board members on the inside front cover:

http://www.thegraphicnovels.com/nsp1-21.html
http://www.english.ufl.edu/imagetext...ibit1/dc.shtml
Jerry Siegel's Superman's early vigilante actives consisted of his concerned for social issues and early attempts at social reform without having the legal authority, including traffic safety, juvenile delinquency, urban renewal. Superman also executed criminals occasionally without legal authority, but much less frequently than Batman had killed criminals.

Batman was made part of the establishment because of the new editorial policy to get away from Batman's vigilantism and to bring him over to the side of the law. Unlike Finger and Kane's stated dislike of DC's insistence in 1941 that Batman become part of the establishment, Superman's progression into having an accepted relationship in the establishment was never stated as an issue of contention for Jerry Siegel, and Superman's gradual developing acceptance in the establishment seems more like natural character progression by Jerry Siegel since Superman wasn't forced into the establishment in 1941 like Batman had been by DC's new Editorial Advisory Board.

Bill Finger and Bob Kane made it clear that Batman would have remained an anti-establishment vigilante had Bill Finger and Bob Kane had control. But Superman wouldn't have remained the same if Jerry Siegel had complete control. Jerry Siegel's "The K-Metal from Krypton" story of Superman in 1940, with revealing his secret identity to Lois, which had been completely penciled, inked, and lettered, made it clear that Jerry Siegel was interested in evolving and changing Superman's life with character growth, relationships evolving and changing. I believe that included Superman's relationship with the establishment evolving and changing over time.
I feel that most of Siegel's feelings about Superman as a character are clouded by the bad business deals that he and Shuster had signed. Who knows how opposed he was or wasn't to making Superman part of the establishment. But I doubt he would have ever wanted Superman to be treated like he was a pet by the President or anyone. It's degrading to Superman, which is why Miller did it and why you apologize for it.

Quote:
As for Superman's relationship with the establishment:
In Action Comics #1 (1938) by Jerry Siegel, the Governor says to the members of his staff about Superman, "Thank heaven he's apparently on the side of law and order!"
In Superman #13 (1941) "Baby on the Doorstep" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a captured foreign spy chief over to the police force, one of the police officers remarks admirably to Superman, "If we could only draft you into the force!"
In Superman #15 (1942) "The Napkanese Saboteurs" by Jerry Siegel, Superman aids the U.S. Navy and has thwarted an attempt by Napkan saboteurs to sink a newly christened American battleship, Navyman Hank Fox pays Superman this tribute, "How fortunate we are here in America to have someone of Superman's caliber to aid us! In my opinion, he's worth several Armies and Navies!"
In Superman #17 (1942) "When Titans Clash" by Jerry Siegel, when Superman turns a group of Luthor's henchmen over to the police, Superman says, "Always glad to help the police!"
In Superman #20 (1943) "Lair of the Leopard" by Jerry Siegel, as Superman helps the police apprehend the Leopard's henchmen, a police office remarks about Superman, "To think we once considered him outside the law!"
In Superman #22 (1943) "The Great ABC Panic" by Jerry Siegel, the nation plunges into chaos when the Prankster copyrights the English alphabet, and Clark thinks to himself, "What can I do? The Prankster has the law on his side, and I won't flout justice at any cost!"
The police only went after Batman a few times as well, and it seemed more like Gordon himself who early on had an issue with him, mostly because Batman was making the police look incompetent. They never called in the national military to go after him like they did with Superman. If anything, the authorities backed off of Superman's case because they knew they had no shot at stopping him. With Batman, it was more that Gordon correctly made the case that Batman's operations helped make Gotham City a better place. And there were several early Batman stories that also reflected a social conscience, as Batman helped keep youths away from crime. The early Superman and Batman were quite similar, in fact. It's just that Miller dislikes the character of Superman, IMO, and until he shows him in a positive light, I'll continue to believe that. And no, taking over Earth with Wonder Woman and becoming a super-dictator as he does in DKSA doesn't count, at least not to me.

Quote:
Batman was an extremely violent vigilante, and beat up police and used an actual gun that fired bullets and killed with it, Batman killed often, and comic books were getting criticized for violence, which is why DC's Editorial Director Whitney Ellsworth was so strict that Batman never use a gun again, never kill again and immediately become part of the establishment in 1941.
He killed no more often than other early super-heroes, but he was much more famous than characters like Hawkman, who also killed. And other characters, like Captain America, Bucky, Human Torch and Toro, and Sub-Mariner all did a lot of killing too, but that was war so it's different. Timely's books were always wilder and more violent than National's.

Quote:
Denny O'Neil had returned Batman as a dark, mysterious vigilante back in the '70s Bronze Age. Michael Fleisher had returned the Spectre as a dark and vicious entity killing villains in creative and gruesome ways in the '70s Bronze Age, while Superman stayed iconically patriotic and law-abiding in the Bronze Age.
Not everyone thought Superman was beyond reproach in the Bronze Age:



Quote:
Yes, John Byrne said that Dick Giordano came to him and asked him to reboot Superman, and Byrne said that he would have been willing to work within the previous continuity.
Yeah, and Byrne did show that he could write a more classic Superman in Generations. That's why I don't blame JB completely-that and I do like his non-Superman work for the most part.

Quote:
The deathbed advice made sense in the origin story written by Bill Finger because that origin story didn't include Superboy, so Clark hadn't already been using his powers for the good of mankind.
Even with a Superboy history, parents stay parents until the end and to them, it is all about their children and helping them. And the way Maggin wrote the scene, if you had read it, then you would understand that Jonathan's point it he can't treat it like it is fun and games forever.

Quote:
I've never seen you criticize anything Maggin has done.
1. That's avoiding the question
2. I'm not a big fan of his Superwoman character.
3. You defended Miller's Spirit movie.

Quote:
Jerry Siegel's best stories were in the Golden Age, in my opinion, especially the wildly imaginative "Case of the Funny Paper Crimes," the action-packed "Bandit Robots of Metropolis," "The Beasts of Luthor", etc. Jerry Siegel still had such creative freedom to let his imagination run wild in the Golden Age.
I love his Golden Age stuff, but nothing he wrote then could touch "The Death of Superman!" and "Superman's Return to Krypton" to me. Except for the Powerstone Saga, that is. It's actually my favorite Superman story of all time.

Quote:
The Adventures of Superman starring George Reeves has certainly had lasting power. It's been aired in syndication for decades. In 1966 Topps released card sets of the Adventures of Superman series starring George Reeves, rather than pictures from the '60s comics. The legacy of the Adventures of Superman TV series includes it's influence on The New Adventures of Superman TV series by Filmation in the '60s, the "Truth, justice and the American way" line in Donner's Superman: The Movie in 1978, John Byrne's characterization of Clark Kent in 1986, Inspector Henderson introduced into the comics in 1987, the original Superman title renamed The Adventures of Superman in 1987, etc., etc.
Never said it wasn't. But it wasn't as important as the Batman TV series, or that is to say it was not as harmful as the Batman TV series was to Batman-in fact it didn't hurt Superman at all, while Batman has always had to deal with the effects of the campy TV show. It's taken the Nolan movies to finally sort of put it behind Batman.

Regardless, have a good holiday.

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Old 12-24-2011, 10:10 PM   #111
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Even the Nolan movies haven't put it behind him.

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Old 12-27-2011, 10:23 PM   #112
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Alan Burnett and Alan Brennert are two different people, but that interview you posted is awesome, and while Brennert is already one of my favorite writers, my respect for him has increased even more after that. He also added Kathy Kane to Earth-Two because O'Neil killed the Earth-One version. He's a better writer than Miller and O'Neil combined.
I agree with Harlan Ellison and disagree with Alan Brennert's opinion of Miller's Dark Knight and yours, but I'm a supporter of free speech so I'm glad you enjoyed that interview.

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Golden/Silver/Bronze Age Krypton is the style that Shuster intended, and I find Byrne's Krypton to be incredibly ugly, both visually and as a society. I don't like Byrne's designs much.
This is the look of Krypton that Joe Shuster had created in the Superman newspaper strip.

This is the look of Krypton that Joe Shuster had created in More Fun Comics #101 (1945) published by DC:

Rather than this by Wayne Boring:

Or this by Curt Swan:

Dick Giordano and Jenette Kahn told John Byrne to, "Redesign Krypton." So that is what Byrne did. I like Byrne's updated Krypton because it is much more bizarre and alien looking. More otherworldly, and closer to the bizarre look by Shuster with their heads covered from More Fun Comics #101 (1945).


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I feel that most of Siegel's feelings about Superman as a character are clouded by the bad business deals that he and Shuster had signed. Who knows how opposed he was or wasn't to making Superman part of the establishment. But I doubt he would have ever wanted Superman to be treated like he was a pet by the President or anyone. It's degrading to Superman, which is why Miller did it and why you apologize for it.
The President offered Superman a medal and called him a good American, that is not degrading him or treating him like a pet. It's true to how patriotic Superman has iconically been, which is why Miller did it and why I defend it.

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Old 12-27-2011, 10:24 PM   #113
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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The police only went after Batman a few times as well, and it seemed more like Gordon himself who early on had an issue with him, mostly because Batman was making the police look incompetent.
The police went after Batman more than just a few times.
"It's the Bat-Man! Get him!" shouts Gordon to his officers as he spies Batman atop a nearby roof in Detective Comics #27 (May, 1939) "The Case of the Crime Syndicate" by Bill Finger.
Batman shoved over a police officer in Detective Comics #35 (January, 1940) "The Case of the Ruby Idol" by Bill Finger.

Batman flees from the police in Detective Comics #36 (February, 1940) "Professor Hugo Strange" by Bill Finger.
Batman says "Sorry boys, but I'm not quite ready for jail!" in the Drake Museum as Batman fights his way to freedom through a phalanx of Gotham police in Batman #1 (Summer, 1940) "The Joker Returns" by Bill Finger.

Gotham Police Detective McGonigle made a series of attempts to arrest Batman for his vigilantism. Batman grabs Detective McGonigle's gun, pushes him in the face and escapes in Batman #3 (Fall, 1940) "The Ugliest Man in the World" by Bill Finger.

Again, Detective McGonigle makes an attempt to arrest Batman, but Batman pushes McGonigle off of the pier at Gotham's waterfront and escapes again with Robin.


Again, Detective McGonigle makes an attempt to arrest Batman. McGonigle says, "Up with 'em now..And no tricks!" Batman replies, "Why, McGonigle, I wouldn't think of tricking you! ...Or would I!" and pulls McGonigle's derby down over his eyes and escapes again with Robin.


Detective McGonigle actually succeeds in handcuffing Batman, but Batman punches McGonigle and escapes again in Batman #3 (Fall, 1940) "The Batman vs. the Cat-Woman" by Bill Finger.


After a battle with a gang of bank robbers, Batman and Robin leap through a window into the river to escape the arriving police in Batman #5 (Spring, 1941) "Crime Does Not Pay" by Bill Finger.
Batman is caught by Gotham City Patrolman Riley, who lets Batman hit him and escape, Batman replies, "Say, you're okay!" and punches the cop in the face in "The Case of the Three Devils!" from Detective Comics #50 (April, 1941) by Bill Finger.

Batman is pursued by the police after battling henchmen of Loo Chung in Detective Comics #52 (June, 1941) "The Secret of the Jade Box" by Bill Finger.
"The police," remarks Batman wryly, "aren't exactly too fond of my slightly different way in fighting crime!" as Batman and Robin fight their way past some police in order to avoid arrest in Batman #6 (August-September, 1941) "Murder on Parole" by Bill Finger.
Batman breaks into a prison and throws sleeping gas at the guards in Batman #6 (August-September, 1941) "Murder on Parole" by Bill Finger.

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With Batman, it was more that Gordon correctly made the case that Batman's operations helped make Gotham City a better place.
Which Gordon comes to realize in Batman: Year One.

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And there were several early Batman stories that also reflected a social conscience, as Batman helped keep youths away from crime.
Which happens in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns with the Sons of the Batman, the Mutants and the black out rioters.

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It's just that Miller dislikes the character of Superman, IMO, and until he shows him in a positive light, I'll continue to believe that.
By 1986 Superman had been shown iconically as a member of the establishment for decades in the '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s in the comic books, on radio, on television and on films.

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He killed no more often than other early super-heroes, but he was much more famous than characters like Hawkman, who also killed. And other characters, like Captain America, Bucky, Human Torch and Toro, and Sub-Mariner all did a lot of killing too, but that was war so it's different. Timely's books were always wilder and more violent than National's.
Batman destroyed a dirigible airship, killing the Scarlet Horde army of 2,000 men aboard, in Detective Comics #33 (1939) "The Batman Wars Against the Dirigible of Doom" by Gardner Fox.

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Not everyone thought Superman was beyond reproach in the Bronze Age:
I didn't say Superman was beyond criticism, especially from Morgan Edge.

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Even with a Superboy history, parents stay parents until the end and to them, it is all about their children and helping them. And the way Maggin wrote the scene, if you had read it, then you would understand that Jonathan's point it he can't treat it like it is fun and games forever.
Jonathan says, "No man on Earth has the amazing powers you have. You can use them to become a powerful force for good. To fight those criminals best you must hide your true identity." Yet, Superboy had already been doing those things. He began wearing glasses as Clark to hide his identity in More Fun Comics #107 (January-February 1946) "Ordeal on Wheels!"

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1. That's avoiding the question
2. I'm not a big fan of his Superwoman character.
3. You defended Miller's Spirit movie.
1. That's making a point that someone who is a fan of someones material are not likely to be seen going around criticizing it.
2. I'm not a big fan of his 300 story.
3. I liked Miller's Spirit movie.

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I love his Golden Age stuff, but nothing he wrote then could touch "The Death of Superman!" and "Superman's Return to Krypton" to me. Except for the Powerstone Saga, that is. It's actually my favorite Superman story of all time.
The Powerstone story-line was awesome.

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Never said it wasn't. But it wasn't as important as the Batman TV series, or that is to say it was not as harmful as the Batman TV series was to Batman-in fact it didn't hurt Superman at all, while Batman has always had to deal with the effects of the campy TV show. It's taken the Nolan movies to finally sort of put it behind Batman.
The Adventures of Superman, because it treated Superman sincerely and made Superman look awesome rather than the butt of a joke, was enduringly important to Superman's continued popularity and success, and definitely had a positive effect on Superman. Joel Schumacher's Batman films have more of a negative, eye-rolling, cringe inducing effect than the Adam West TV show, to me anyway.

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Regardless, have a good holiday.
I am, thanks. Happy holidays to you.

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Old 01-28-2012, 03:51 PM   #114
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

The amount of writing and knowledge on display here is quite impressive. I guess arguments do have their benefits.

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Old 01-30-2012, 02:54 AM   #115
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Batman sure used to give Oliver Hardy a hard time.

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Old 04-06-2012, 11:30 AM   #116
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

It sounds like half of you like Byrne's run and contributions and the other half prefer other stuff. I like the knowledge presented here as an attempt to justify Byrne's changes

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Old 04-08-2012, 12:46 PM   #117
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Let's all understand something: the reason that superman and Batman got toned down and were deputized was because of the comics code that made all comics companies tone down the vigilantism and aggressiveness. That's when we started getting the silly stories and superman started becoming more of a boy scout.

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Old 04-08-2012, 01:00 PM   #118
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Let's all understand something: the reason that superman and Batman got toned down and were deputized was because of the comics code that made all comics companies tone down the vigilantism and aggressiveness. That's when we started getting the silly stories and superman started becoming more of a boy scout.
Um, that's not totally true.

For Batman, at least, DC started making editorial demands for Batman to be made more kid-friendly as early as 1940 - 14 years before the CCA even existed.

Bob Kane himself stated that Robin - and Batman's original costume change - came about due to DC's desire to lighten up Batman.

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Old 04-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #119
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

I don't believe what is said in one of the posts up above that Byrne's only vision for Superman came from the Reeves show and STM. Byrne had to have had more influences for his take than that. I always thought that he was influenced by the Fleischer toons (greatest cartoons of all time).

His quote is something like: "My Superman is basically the Jerry Seigel/Joe Shuster Superman mixed with the Fleischer Superman set in 1986."

Also, to be fair and objective here, a lot of what Byrne did was thought up by MARV WOLFMAN.

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Old 05-18-2012, 06:59 PM   #120
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

John Bryne's Superman is easily, easily, EASILY the most overrated version of Superman. Easily.

The fact that DC has redone Superman's origin a billion times is a testament to how flawed Bryne's Superman was. By comparison, Frank Miller's Batman: Year One is STILL in continuity.

That's because, as overrated as Miller is, he didnt take a dump on things that made Batman interesting. Unfortunately, Bryne made Superman boring as hell.

Birthright was a much better origin story. It respected the past instead of slapping it in the face, and made old school Superman tropes modern.

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Old 05-21-2012, 06:58 AM   #121
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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John Bryne's Superman is easily, easily, EASILY the most overrated version of Superman. Easily.
Yup.
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The fact that DC has redone Superman's origin a billion times is a testament to how flawed Bryne's Superman was. By comparison, Frank Miller's Batman: Year One is STILL in continuity.

That's because, as overrated as Miller is, he didnt take a dump on things that made Batman interesting. Unfortunately, Bryne made Superman boring as hell.
True - but what most people do not know is that funnily enough, DC already started to contradict "Year One" the same month the last part of it came out(!).


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Birthright was a much better origin story. It respected the past instead of slapping it in the face, and made old school Superman tropes modern.
Yup, but those *******s had nothing better to do than to ***** about the soul aura and Superman being a vegetarian.

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Old 05-21-2012, 07:00 AM   #122
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Also, to be fair and objective here, a lot of what Byrne did was thought up by MARV WOLFMAN.
Yes, with parents like that, the child had to be retarded. Wolfman already bored me when he wrote the pre-crisis version.

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Old 05-21-2012, 07:13 AM   #123
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

I'm going to do something really controversial and say that Paul Dini and Bruce Timm's Superman was just as bad.

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Old 05-21-2012, 07:23 AM   #124
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

I didn't like it either. It felt like they weren't really motivated to do a Superman show in the first place.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:06 AM   #125
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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I didn't like it either. It felt like they weren't really motivated to do a Superman show in the first place.
I can sympathize with that statement a little

While I always felt Batman The Animated Series was far better, I enjoyed some episodes of Superman (others not so much). I thought they drew Clark/Superman too bulky. I enjoyed the 3 part origin and I loved the Metallo episodes. Did not like their take on Lex's look and felt they could have featured the Fortress of Solitude more often.

Overall I thought it was good

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