The Natalie Portman/Jane Foster Thread

[Mysteryman]

04nbod,
What are your favorite Story Arcs for Thor?

[DACrowe]

I just heard the controversy over Jenkins and Portman.

I'll admit that I'm biased in that all the Marvel films feel pretty much the same with only IM1 being vastly superior (and IM2 slightly worse) than the rest. It sounds like Patty Jenkins was fired because she was proposing something that was (finally) different. Maybe her ideas were out there, but she has directed an Oscar winning film and probably could have done some interesting things.

But moreover I think that Jane is an important factor for the sequel because of the first movie's ending. Also, Portman brought some fun energy to that movie even if her character was severely underwritten. After losing Favreau, Branagh, Norton, Howard and now Jenkins over "creative differences," losing Portman AFTER she just won an Oscar would look really bad.

I'll be interested in many years from now when people can talk openly about what working at Marvel Studios was like because I've heard Bridges, Skarsgard, Johannson, and Renner grumble about how disorganized it was and they're not even the ones who left (well Bridges was killed off but still....). It would be really interesting to hear what people really think when the MCU is long over.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by 04nbod

What? Seriously people, what? The sexist crap is just mounting. Women aren't interchangible for your gratification

They're not, but the unfortunate thing is that the movie presented a pretty interchangeable character, despite how that poster worded things....so she's easily replaceable.

[04nbod]

Originally Posted by Mysteryman

04nbod,
What are your favorite Story Arcs for Thor?

The Mighty Avenger, The entire Journey into Mystery era, Gillen's current run on Journey into Mystery (which is Loki but still 'Thor'), Ultimates 1 and 2. Those are the first to pop into my head. I really liked the end of Thor vol. 1 after Ellis left.

Originally Posted by KalMart

They're not, but the unfortunate thing is that the movie presented a pretty interchangeable character, despite how that poster worded things....so she's easily replaceable.

I don't think it actually did. The big theme was grounding magic as Science, without Jane that disappears. Without Jane and her entourage there is no real plot once Thor is banished to Earth, and its only on Earth Thor displays any character at all beyond bloodlust and arrogance. Jane is the only character besides Loki and his father that Thor significantly interacts with. Jane is the everywoman perspective for the viewer, she's the human angle. There is no other character from Thor's history that can fill that role considering they've thrown out the Donald aspect where Thor himself is human and relatable. Jane does more in this movie than even Odin does and has a more nuanced character arc where she has her mind opened to the fact that all these crazy things are possible, that she is right and her theories are going to change the world.

People say she's underwritten and its true which is why I expect more in Thor 2 and not just dropping her and trying to start again from scratch while throwing away everything you have done.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by 04nbod

I don't think it actually did. The big theme was grounding magic as Science, without Jane that disappears. Without Jane and her entourage there is no real plot once Thor is banished to Earth, and its only on Earth Thor displays any character at all beyond bloodlust and arrogance. Jane is the only character besides Loki and his father that Thor significantly interacts with. Jane is the everywoman perspective for the viewer, she's the human angle. There is no other character from Thor's history that can fill that role considering they've thrown out the Donald aspect where Thor himself is human and relatable. Jane does more in this movie than even Odin does and has a more nuanced character arc where she has her mind opened to the fact that all these crazy things are possible, that she is right and her theories are going to change the world.

People say she's underwritten and its true which is why I expect more in Thor 2 and not just dropping her and trying to start again from scratch while throwing away everything you have done.

And her function is done. You could easily have Thor come to Earth again for another purpose entirely, not even mention or see her, and nothing would feel unfinished. Oh...she was a 'love interest'. Right...how memorable was that?

Technically, sure you could point to how important she was in the actual plot, yadda-yadda. How did it feel, though? Was there electricity? Like we have to see where the relationship goes or something will feel lacking? That's why she's interchangeable.

[cronosred]

Originally Posted by KalMart

And her function is done. You could easily have Thor come to Earth again for another purpose entirely, not even mention or see her, and nothing would feel unfinished. Oh...she was a 'love interest'. Right...how memorable was that?

Technically, sure you could point to how important she was in the actual plot, yadda-yadda. How did it feel, though? Was there electricity? Like we have to see where the relationship goes or something will feel lacking? That's why she's interchangeable.

If Jane doesn't return it makes the ending from the first movie pointless.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by KalMart

And her function is done. You could easily have Thor come to Earth again for another purpose entirely, not even mention or see her, and nothing would feel unfinished. Oh...she was a 'love interest'. Right...how memorable was that?

Technically, sure you could point to how important she was in the actual plot, yadda-yadda. How did it feel, though? Was there electricity? Like we have to see where the relationship goes or something will feel lacking? That's why she's interchangeable.

Granted, I understand if not everyone has a high opinion on Jane's character; be that as it may, I respectfully disagree with that since Jane was designed to be a strong factor in helping Thor learn on how to be humble on Earth, and has been presented as his most intimate tie to Earth; along with the fact that the first film ENDED with Thor pining after Jane and wanting to reunite with her, vice versa.

She may not need to be in Thor 3...but I think it's a must for her to be included in Thor 2 in order to at least conclude their arc together.

Heck, Vicki Vale wasn't that much useful to the first Batman film and she at least got a mention as to why she wasn't in BR in the film.

Be that as it may, Portman IS returning for the Second one at least since she was confirmed to be in it alongside Tom and Chris; with one of the storylines for Thor 2 dealing with the development of Jane's and Thor's relationship.

Originally Posted by cronosred

If Jane doesn't return it makes the ending from the first movie pointless.

She's returning; she was the only one other than Chris and Tom that were CONFIRMED by Marvel Studios to be returning for the sequel when they had announced their official statement regarding "Thor 2". Whether she'll return for "Thor 3" is another question.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by cronosred

If Jane doesn't return it makes the ending from the first movie pointless.

It's already rather pointless though, aside from him getting back home. All the first movie did was give us a live-action Thor to put into The Avengers movie. Portman was there for marquee value.

Originally Posted by herolee10

Granted, I understand if not everyone has a high opinion on Jane's character; be that as it may, I respectfully disagree with that since Jane was designed to be a strong factor in helping Thor learn on how to be humble on Earth, and has been presented as his most intimate tie to Earth; along with the fact that the first film ENDED with Thor pining after Jane and wanting to reunite with her, vice versa.

She may not need to be in Thor 3...but I think it's a must for her to be included in Thor 2 in order to at least conclude their arc together.

Heck, Vicki Vale wasn't that much useful to the first Batman film and she at least got a mention as to why she wasn't in BR in the film.

One line...and that was more than enough. Also replaceable. There really wasn't much of an arc. Put it this way...Potts and Stark didn't even kiss in the first movie, and you felt there was some electricity you wanted to see again. And it may be more from the actual actors/chemistry than the story....but Thor had neither, even if they did express 'love' to eachother. I mean, most people don't even remember her character's name. Heck...people even remembered 'Vicki Vale' better than....well...Portman's character.

Originally Posted by herolee10

Be that as it may, Portman IS returning for the Second one at least since she was confirmed to be in it alongside Tom and Chris; with one of the storylines for Thor 2 dealing with the development of Jane's and Thor's relationship.

Because she's Natalie Portman.


Not that I dislike the idea of her coming back...never bad to see her in anything, really. But c'mon...they could get another love interest/actress and not skip a beat except for not having Natalie Portman on the poster.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by KalMart

It's already rather pointless though, aside from him getting back home. All the first movie did was give us a live-action Thor to put into The Avengers movie. Portman was there for marquee value.


One line...and that was more than enough. Also replaceable. There really wasn't much of an arc. Put it this way...Potts and Stark didn't even kiss in the first movie, and you felt there was some electricity you wanted to see again. And it may be more from the actual actors/chemistry than the story....but Thor had neither, even if they did express 'love' to eachother. I mean, most people don't even remember her character's name. Heck...people even remembered 'Vicki Vale' better than....well...Portman's character.


Because she's Natalie Portman.


Not that I dislike the idea of her coming back...never bad to see her in anything, really. But c'mon...they could get another love interest/actress and not skip a beat except for not having Natalie Portman on the poster.

I think if anything, had "Thor" the movie been allowed to be a little bit longer and have Thor's time on Earth take place for more than just a day, perhaps Jane's character would have been allowed to be fleshed out even more; especially since I personally felt that she had good enough material to explore on her own that would have moved the story as well that wasn't "romance plot" related since her character was knowledgeable with the whole inter-dimension thing.

And I won't deny that her name and its market value was probably another strong reason for Marvel wanting her in it as well.

In any case, others would disagree with your assessment of their chemistry with each other; some enjoyed it, others didn't..etc. If anything, I think the whole point was to show somewhat the bittersweet feeling that just when things are about to pick up between the two characters, things are cut short and they're prevented from seeing each other for a certain amount of time at the end.

As for a new love interest, well Sif would probably be the answer to that, since she's also a major love interest for the character in the comics...if Marvel wanted to, they could use the second film to transition Thor from Jane to Sif in a similar matter like how TDK franchise is apparently doing with Bruce from Rachel to either Selina or Talia in the next film.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by KalMart

And her function is done. You could easily have Thor come to Earth again for another purpose entirely, not even mention or see her, and nothing would feel unfinished. Oh...she was a 'love interest'. Right...how memorable was that?

Technically, sure you could point to how important she was in the actual plot, yadda-yadda. How did it feel, though? Was there electricity? Like we have to see where the relationship goes or something will feel lacking? That's why she's interchangeable.

Are you serious? Some of the last lines in the movie were "...he misses her, the mortal." and "Can you see her? Yes, She searches for you." and the movie ends with Thor smiling at that thought. She is absolutely essential to the next movie, they are trying to get back to each other desperately.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Are you serious? Some of the last lines in the movie were "...he misses her, the mortal." and "Can you see her? Yes, She searches for you." and the movie ends with Thor smiling at that thought.

A very typical ending and unfortunately not one where you felt like the relationship was dangling. If they don't miss it in a followup, neither will the audience. Whereas in something like Iron Man, you felt the sparks without even verbalizing it...or kissing, etc.. Thor didn't have that.

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

She is absolutely essential to the next movie, they are trying to get back to each other desperately.

Because she's Natalie Portman.

Again...you have to bring up specific lines or aspects of the plot, etc to justify such-and-such....fine and dandy. But they didn't make you feel it....like it works when done well, you don't even have to bring up a line or story point. Probably a combination of both writing and chemistry, but again, there's little that's needed from Portman again except her star-power. It's not her fault, and no-one's saying can her out of dislike. But she's an ultimately expendable and easily replaceable character.

[04nbod]

Originally Posted by KalMart

And her function is done. You could easily have Thor come to Earth again for another purpose entirely, not even mention or see her, and nothing would feel unfinished. Oh...she was a 'love interest'. Right...how memorable was that?

Technically, sure you could point to how important she was in the actual plot, yadda-yadda. How did it feel, though? Was there electricity? Like we have to see where the relationship goes or something will feel lacking? That's why she's interchangeable.

It ends on a cliffhanger where Jane is looking for him. I should hope she finds him.

I thought the chemistry between Nat and Chris was great with what we god but like you say it needed more. Thor 2 should give us more.

And if Science=Magic, I will not rest until I get Jane vs Enchantress

Originally Posted by KalMart

It's already rather pointless though, aside from him getting back home. All the first movie did was give us a live-action Thor to put into The Avengers movie. Portman was there for marquee value.

It did Thor's origin story a little unfaithfully but the basics were there. What else would you want out of the first Thor movie?

One line...and that was more than enough. Also replaceable. There really wasn't much of an arc. Put it this way...Potts and Stark didn't even kiss in the first movie, and you felt there was some electricity you wanted to see again. And it may be more from the actual actors/chemistry than the story....but Thor had neither, even if they did express 'love' to eachother. I mean, most people don't even remember her character's name. Heck...people even remembered 'Vicki Vale' better than....well...Portman's character.

Who are these 'most people'? You must have really badly attentive friends

Not that I dislike the idea of her coming back...never bad to see her in anything, really. But c'mon...they could get another love interest/actress and not skip a beat except for not having Natalie Portman on the poster.

Except the entire ending and the growing tension throughout between them. That would be like Thor saying 'I met this girl who I grew to like considerably but I had to leave. We kissed and I promised to return for her. I miss her and she is looking for me but I've chosen to never see her again'. Are you Stan Lee? He wrote a similar crazy out for Jane in the 60's

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by 04nbod

It ends on a cliffhanger where Jane is looking for him. I should hope she finds him.

I thought the chemistry between Nat and Chris was great with what we god but like you say it needed more. Thor 2 should give us more.

And if Science=Magic, I will not rest until I get Jane vs Enchantress



It did Thor's origin story a little unfaithfully but the basics were there. What else would you want out of the first Thor movie?

Who are these 'most people'? You must have really badly attentive friends


Except the entire ending and the growing tension throughout between them. That would be like Thor saying 'I met this girl who I grew to like considerably but I had to leave. We kissed and I promised to return for her. I miss her and she is looking for me but I've chosen to never see her again'. Are you Stan Lee? He wrote a similar crazy out for Jane in the 60's

Again, a lot is obvious and right there in the raw info, but it wasn't delivered like something we had to see continue. You watched a romance but you didn't really experience one with them like you do in other movies. We didn't feel it with Connelly and Bana's character in Hulk, either, even though Thor was a better movie. Chemistry, material, whatever be the reasons.

And its not about 'what more do you want', the movie...and more importantly an Avengers...works okay without making any more of it. It's plenty excusable. But don't make it out to actually be well done or vital/irrelpaceable moving forward, because it isn't.

[herolee10]

Because I can...

[04nbod]

I want to see more of this in Thor 2:









Jane's mouthy and opinionated and funny. She's fiercely protective (which when written poorly seems motherly) and selfless. In her very first appearance she was willing to sacrifice herself so Donald wouldn't get shot. She hid Thor's hammer once when she didn't know he was Donald so Hyde didn't feel threatened and blow up the building Donald was trapped in. Jane wouldn't leave Donald when they were running away from supervillains because he could only use one leg. If she can't be a Doctor/Nurse at least show that caring side of her.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Because I can...

No-one's saying she ain't a looker.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Again, a lot is obvious and right there in the raw info, but it wasn't delivered like something we had to see continue. You watched a romance but you didn't really experience one with them like you do in other movies. We didn't feel it with Connelly and Bana's character in Hulk, either, even though Thor was a better movie. Chemistry, material, whatever be the reasons.

And its not about 'what more do you want', the movie...and more importantly an Avengers...works okay without making any more of it. It's plenty excusable. But don't make it out to actually be well done or vital/irrelpaceable moving forward, because it isn't.

It *is* vital that Jane return for Thor 2, and they wrap up the relationship threads established in the first film.

I *do* agree with you, however, that Jane is expendable as a character, *after* the inevitable reunion. I'd be more than happy to see Jane die a noble lover's death in this one, and Thor set his sights on Sif instead. Since, you know, that's what happened in the original comic.

Also, a lot of this is speculation on my part, but it seems to me from what I'm reading here in the forums and in the blogosphere that Thor's success can be attributable in large part to an unexpected demographic: namely, women and foreign markets. As a superhero movie, Thor didn't attract the usual rock-em-sock-em action crowd (i.e., boys of all ages, say 5 to 50), but people who were more enthralled with the quasi-Shakespearean family drama, the cross-dimensional romance, and (frankly) the shirtless hunk.

So I believe that Marvel should be (and *is*) taking this new demographic into consideration for Thor 2; and that means the Thor 'n' Jane romance will likely take center stage.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

It *is* vital that Jane return for Thor 2, and they wrap up the relationship threads established in the first film.

I *do* agree with you, however, that Jane is expendable as a character, *after* the inevitable reunion. I'd be more than happy to see Jane die a noble lover's death in this one, and Thor set his sights on Sif instead. Since, you know, that's what happened in the original comic.

Also, a lot of this is speculation on my part, but it seems to me from what I'm reading here in the forums and in the blogosphere that Thor's success can be attributable in large part to an unexpected demographic: namely, women and foreign markets. As a superhero movie, Thor didn't attract the usual rock-em-sock-em action crowd (i.e., boys of all ages, say 5 to 50), but people who were more enthralled with the quasi-Shakespearean family drama, the cross-dimensional romance, and (frankly) the shirtless hunk.

So I believe that Marvel should be (and *is*) taking this new demographic into consideration for Thor 2; and that means the Thor 'n' Jane romance will likely take center stage.

Not really, no. You could simply mention she found someone else then move merrily along. Some other musclebound blonde guy.

Honestly thoughts, lots of people found the 'relationship' in the film to feel more about lust than actual budding love et al. Not her fault but more the film's fault...even if there was ink on the script that points to 'she's needed because...' Just not one of the better movie couples out there. Not saying it's easy, because it isn't. It's not like people will be pissed that she's coming back for #2, either. But the 'romance' was clearly one of the film's weaker points, and that probably took some more skill from the writer, and/or a better onscreen chemistry that they could work off of. Granted, they're not Downey Jr and Paltrow, but maybe there's something to be found there in a followup.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by KalMart

A very typical ending and unfortunately not one where you felt like the relationship was dangling. If they don't miss it in a followup, neither will the audience. Whereas in something like Iron Man, you felt the sparks without even verbalizing it...or kissing, etc.. Thor didn't have that.

Sorry, but me and my family all thought the relationship was dangling, we all WANTED Jane to find Thor or vice/versa and we all want to know if they will be re-united in the sequel, plenty was left dangling.

Originally Posted by KalMart

Because she's Natalie Portman.

I was actually talking about the character, not the actress, Thor and Jane are desperate to see each other again, it was more than just romance, for Jane, meeting Thor was a culmination of her life's work, for Thor she is a big part of him becoming more humble and understanding.

Originally Posted by KalMart

Again...you have to bring up specific lines or aspects of the plot, etc to justify such-and-such....fine and dandy. But they didn't make you feel it....like it works when done well, you don't even have to bring up a line or story point. Probably a combination of both writing and chemistry, but again, there's little that's needed from Portman again except her star-power. It's not her fault, and no-one's saying can her out of dislike. But she's an ultimately expendable and easily replaceable character.

I would have to disagree again, I would say Jane's character is essential for Thor 2, see my points above about why, there is more than just romance there.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Sorry, but me and my family all thought the relationship was dangling, we all WANTED Jane to find Thor or vice/versa and we all want to know if they will be re-united in the sequel, plenty was left dangling.




I was actually talking about the character, not the actress, Thor and Jane are desperate to see each other again, it was more than just romance, for Jane, meeting Thor was a culmination of her life's work, for Thor she is a big part of him becoming more humble and understanding.



I would have to disagree again, I would say Jane's character is essential for Thor 2, see my points above about why, there is more than just romance there.

Again....it's not about what the character was written to be. You could probably surmise her out to be more essential to the story, on paper, than Paltrow's Potts was to Iron Man. But the latter felt better, they made a cuter and more fun pair, and left something that you really wanted to enjoy watching develop more. I really didn't see Thor having that. Granted, that's a lot to measure up to with those two actors...but even still, Thor's felt pretty obligatory in comparison. Not necessarily terrible, but just there, regardless how important it was supposed to be. On the level of Connelly and Bana in Hulk, even though Thor was a better movie.

That's what makes her replaceable, in that despite the kinds of things you mention...it really wouldn't take much to overcome it with someone else of notable name and appeal. Have the next Thor movie primarily not take place on present Earth. There you go. If no Portman, maybe he and Johannsen's character may start spending a little more extra-mission time together in an otherworldly battle or something. But she's Natalie Portman...of course they'll want her back...because she's Natalie Portman.

[herolee10]

20 bucks a diet coke says that this film will have a "morning after" scene in Asgard featuring Thor and Jane.lol

[cronosred]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Again....it's not about what the character was written to be. You could probably surmise her out to be more essential to the story, on paper, than Paltrow's Potts was to Iron Man. But the latter felt better, they made a cuter and more fun pair, and left something that you really wanted to enjoy watching develop more. I really didn't see Thor having that. Granted, that's a lot to measure up to with those two actors...but even still, Thor's felt pretty obligatory in comparison. Not necessarily terrible, but just there, regardless how important it was supposed to be. On the level of Connelly and Bana in Hulk, even though Thor was a better movie.

That's what makes her replaceable, in that despite the kinds of things you mention...it really wouldn't take much to overcome it with someone else of notable name and appeal. Have the next Thor movie primarily not take place on present Earth. There you go. If no Portman, maybe he and Johannsen's character may start spending a little more extra-mission time together in an otherworldly battle or something. But she's Natalie Portman...of course they'll want her back...because she's Natalie Portman.

I disagree, Thor and Jane's relationship was left with them trying to find their way back to each other so they could start something, there was nothing like that in Iron Man, Pepper and Tony were basically in the same place in their relationship from Iron Man 1 - Iron Man 2, IMO Pepper would be far more easily replaced. Now granted the relationship between Thor and Jane did happen quickly but it was nowhere near as bad as the relationship in Ang's Hulk where Betty and Bruce were already broken up and both had alot of issues, most of the time they didn't even feel like they wanted to be around each other.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by cronosred

I disagree, Thor and Jane's relationship was left with them trying to find their way back to each other so they could start something, there was nothing like that in Iron Man, Pepper and Tony were basically in the same place in their relationship from Iron Man 1 - Iron Man 2, IMO Pepper would be far more easily replaced. Now granted the relationship between Thor and Jane did happen quickly but it was nowhere near as bad as the relationship in Ang's Hulk where Betty and Bruce were already broken up and both had alot of issues, most of the time they didn't even feel like they wanted to be around each other.

Again...it's not about the raw story arc, and what each character did in the plot as much as how enjoyable as a couple they were. You just felt that you had to see more of Stark and Potts in the next story regardless of what happened...but Jane and THor was more 'meh', even if the story left it at 'will I see you again?'. Just not one of the better movie couples, even in the genre.

Put it this way...if she's back, then great...never bad to see Portman in anything. If she/character wasn't, they'd also be fine with a story that doesn't involve her. Potts, you would have actually missed.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Put it this way...if she's back, then great...never bad to see Portman in anything. If she/character wasn't, they'd also be fine with a story that doesn't involve her.

Well while it remains to be seen if she'll be in a potential Thor 3..it is CONFIRMED that she's returning for Thor 2.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Well while it remains to be seen if she'll be in a potential Thor 3..it is CONFIRMED that she's returning for Thor 2.

Yes we know that, and there's also some contention with the studio over a change of directors or the like. We're not talking about IF she's actually coming back. We're talking about how essential she is, and/or how essential she feels.