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Old 01-23-2012, 09:26 PM   #51
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Actually, if you're paying attention, the Schumacher films took some of B:TAS's great ideas (Two-Face being defeated with coins, Mr. Freeze's origin), ripped them off, and shat on them.

Well the coin thing actually preceded BTAS as well, its from the 70s - the era that Forever referenced to most

As for Nolan's influences I tried to gather as much as I could with others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...es-part-v.html

Forever admittedly did well with their research on their 70s, its the characterization of Batman I cant seem to find a match of.

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Old 01-23-2012, 09:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Well the coin thing actually preceded BTAS as well, its from the 70s - the era that Forever referenced to most

As for Nolan's influences I tried to gather as much as I could with others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...es-part-v.html

Forever admittedly did well with their research on their 70s, its the characterization of Batman I cant seem to find a match of.
The funny thing is that the only thing that actually does remind me of the bronze age in that movie outside of the Dick and Bruce dynamic through most of the movie (very reflective of the Robin goes to college era) is Kilmer's Batman. Everything else seems so much more silver agey especially the villains with Two-Face being more Paul Sloane in embracing his crime boss status than Harvey Kent (Dent). But it really is a melting pot.

Like the car design in that movie is a mid 90's take on the golden age batmobile but then you have a 90's comic looking Batboat. I found more silver age than bronze or golden age in that movie though for sure. Things like "drag queen" Riddler and "Oh No! it's boiiiiiiiiling aciiiiiiiiid" are just much more in line with the quirky nature of the silver age comics.

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Old 01-23-2012, 10:23 PM   #53
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

Well, for me hes way too stoic, relaxed and half asleep for a bronze or Modern Age Batman, and not easy going and enthusiastic enough to be the Silver Age Batman, and not a creepy killing dark creature to be the early '39/'40 Batman

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Old 01-23-2012, 11:37 PM   #54
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I like that Nolan is staying away from the surreal. It's more interesting to see how believable this world can come to life.

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Old 01-24-2012, 02:04 AM   #55
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I had no idea Batman Forever was referencing the 70's aesthetically. I'll have to watch it again.

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Old 01-24-2012, 06:07 AM   #56
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Yeah... the Freeze thing was taken directly from Paul Dini's one shot Freeze comic that was adapted into BTAS.

Paul Dini is completely responsible for the modern Freeze and Mike Mignola did the quintessential design
If you're referring to the Mr. Freeze design from B:TAS, I always found the purple gloves weird.

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Well the coin thing actually preceded BTAS as well, its from the 70s - the era that Forever referenced to most

As for Nolan's influences I tried to gather as much as I could with others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...es-part-v.html

Forever admittedly did well with their research on their 70s, its the characterization of Batman I cant seem to find a match of.
Oh, I stand corrected on the coin thing. It still doesn't make much sense in the context of the movie. Why is Batman carrying a bunch of silver dollars? Did he know he was going to be in that situation?

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Well, for me hes way too stoic, relaxed and half asleep for a bronze or Modern Age Batman, and not easy going and enthusiastic enough to be the Silver Age Batman, and not a creepy killing dark creature to be the early '39/'40 Batman
Agreed. When the thugs run in the alley when they see him, I don't really buy it because Val Kilmer's Batman doesn't seem to do anything that would scare people. I can buy criminals being scared ****less of Batman as portrayed by Michael Keaton or Christian Bale, because they make an effort to be intimidating, which Val Kilmer never did.

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Old 01-24-2012, 06:27 AM   #57
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

Bronze age Batman wasn't really known for intimidation though. He was an adventurous hairy chested batgod. They tried that with Kilmer. Now whether you think it was successful or not is a whole different thing altogether.

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Old 01-24-2012, 06:45 AM   #58
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Bronze age Batman wasn't really known for intimidation though. He was an adventurous hairy chested batgod. They tried that with Kilmer. Now whether you think it was successful or not is a whole different thing altogether.
But the alley scene of Forever shows a hundred goons run away scared just because they see Batman (so it is a fair criticism), but I don't really buy it in that scene because Kilmer never makes an effort to be intimidating as Batman.

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:18 AM   #59
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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I had no idea Batman Forever was referencing the 70's aesthetically. I'll have to watch it again.
No no, not aesthetically, I mean ideas and references. For example, Bruce entering Batcave from his office, statue of liberty, that sort of things

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Bronze age Batman wasn't really known for intimidation though. He was an adventurous hairy chested batgod. They tried that with Kilmer. Now whether you think it was successful or not is a whole different thing altogether.
I hate to disagree with you but I still stand by my words. Right now Im about to leave to work but as soon as Ill get a chance Ill post some examples

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But the alley scene of Forever shows a hundred goons run away scared just because they see Batman (so it is a fair criticism), but I don't really buy it in that scene because Kilmer never makes an effort to be intimidating as Batman.
I believe the goons run away cause its "the legendary Batman" so they didnt want their asses kicked. Kind of like goons running away from cops, not cause theyre scary, but cause theyll get in trouble when caught

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:22 AM   #60
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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No no, not aesthetically, I mean ideas and references. For example, Bruce entering Batcave from his office, statue of liberty, that sort of things



I hate to disagree with you but I still stand by my words. Right now Im about to leave to work but as soon as Ill get a chance Ill post some examples



I believe the goons run away cause its "the legendary Batman" so they didnt want their asses kicked. Kind of like goons running away from cops, not cause theyre scary, but cause theyll get in trouble when caught
I didn't think of it like that. Thanks!

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Old 01-24-2012, 09:40 AM   #61
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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I hate to disagree with you but I still stand by my words. Right now Im about to leave to work but as soon as Ill get a chance Ill post some examples
It's things like being more sympathetic with his villains ("You need help Harvey; give it up." and being more visible at a crime scene and the quipping; making out with chicks while wearing his cowl and being much more physical in his interactions with villains henchmen; as well as being put in more "James Bond like" deathtraps and escaping them (like the safe or the fireball) that reminded me a lot of bronze age Batman.

Keaton had some bronze age elements too BTW but there was a whole lot of golden age there too. With Kilmer I saw more bronze age in his Batman than anything else. Especially with the head butting with Dick Grayson something that B&R expanded on further which is a bronze age influence on that movie too.

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Old 01-24-2012, 09:56 AM   #62
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I think the closest to being a match with Kilmer is Infantino's 60s Batman.

Btw, heres an example from top of my head from the 70s. Batman was pretty much like Bale is in Nolan's movies since the 70s. This is from 1971's Brave and the Bold #93

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:26 AM   #63
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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I think the closest to being a match with Kilmer is Infantino's 60s Batman.

Btw, heres an example from top of my head from the 70s. Batman was pretty much like Bale is in Nolan's movies since the 70s. This is from 1971's Brave and the Bold #93
There are many bronze age elements to Bale. But the bronze age Batman was more than just rage and all.

He was a Batman that had no problem making out with babes while wearing a cowl



or qupping every now and then



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or coming to the apartment of half naked babes that he's conflicted with as both Bruce Wayne and Batman



Oh and of course Kilmer was the only actor to sport the hairy chest like the bronze age hairy chested batgod. It's those little subtle quirks among many more in the movie that remind of bronze age Bats in BF. There is some "new look" Batman there too most definitely but I think the bronze age elements are most prevalent in my mind when watching him n BF.

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:31 AM   #64
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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It's things like being more sympathetic with his villains ("You need help Harvey; give it up." and being more visible at a crime scene and the quipping; making out with chicks while wearing his cowl and being much more physical in his interactions with villains henchmen; as well as being put in more "James Bond like" deathtraps and escaping them (like the safe or the fireball) that reminded me a lot of bronze age Batman.

Keaton had some bronze age elements too BTW but there was a whole lot of golden age there too. With Kilmer I saw more bronze age in his Batman than anything else. Especially with the head butting with Dick Grayson something that B&R expanded on further which is a bronze age influence on that movie too.
I think Michael Keaton's Batman is a hybrid of the earliest Golden Age Batman and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns.

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I think the closest to being a match with Kilmer is Infantino's 60s Batman.

Btw, heres an example from top of my head from the 70s. Batman was pretty much like Bale is in Nolan's movies since the 70s. This is from 1971's Brave and the Bold #93
Agreed.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:24 AM   #65
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Haha Batman is a comic genius.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:34 AM   #66
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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There are many bronze age elements to Bale. But the bronze age Batman was more than just rage and all.

He was a Batman that had no problem making out with babes while wearing a cowl
The difference is he does it with someone he knows and have feelings for for a long time, and more importantly - he doesnt do it in the middle of the action! And with some bimbo he knows for few days as a fanatical teenage mind

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or qupping every now and then
He was actually making snarky comments since the beginning, but all movie Batmen did it

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or coming to the apartment of half naked babes that he's conflicted with as both Bruce Wayne and Batman
The difference here is that hes not coming to a date with a loose girl who has a mind of a teenage Justin Biber fan

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Oh and of course Kilmer was the only actor to sport the hairy chest like the bronze age hairy chested batgod.
Keaton also had hairy chest, but I agree it was Kilmer who very much reflected Bronze batman's physique

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:01 PM   #67
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Actually, if you're paying attention, the Schumacher films took some of B:TAS's great ideas (Two-Face being defeated with coins, Mr. Freeze's origin), ripped them off, and shat on them.
Oh, I know they lifted Freeze's origins and motivation straight out of BTAS. It's about the only good thing about B&R. Though I still think Clooney could have been a pretty good Batman and Bruce Wayne had he been given a decent Batman film to work with.

Two-Face has been subdued with coins on numerous occasions in the comics. But I see where you're coming from with that.

My point was that Schumacher's Bat films came out right on the heels of BTAS and the whole thing was that they allegedly wanted him to tone down what Burton did and meanwhile no one seems to have been paying attention to what Schumacher was doing because they let that stuff see the light of day and went back for a second round no less. At which point he did just what Burton did and amped up his own personal quirk. Meanwhile, BTAS was sitting right there in front of them showing how you make a Batman that is marketable to both kids and adults. One that doesn't talk down to his viewers and maintains the right amount of danger, fun, dark psychology and adventure to appeal to a mighty broad demographic to this day.

Honestly, if I had to choose what Batman movies with Mr. Freeze I'd have released in theaters I would have chosen Batman & Mr. Freeze: Subzero over Batman & Robin. And Subzero was originally going to be released as a tie-in to B&R but because B&R was such a stinker they held onto Subzero for a year afterwards. And it is by far the superior film with Batman, Robin, Batgirl and Mr. Freeze in it. And it's not even that great by BTAS standards.j

Cripes, if only the studio execs had been on the ball enough to find a director that would have brought a live action version of BTAS to the big screen. Batman would never have lost credibility. By the same token, the disaster that is Schumacher did pave the way for the amazing Nolan films. So... 6 of one, half a dozen of the other I guess.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #68
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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Personally, I think that Batman has done in so many different ways stylistically over his 70+ years of history that trying to say "This is THE way to adapt Batman to film" omits a lot great material. I love both Burton's surreal expressionist nightmares and Nolan's grounded, cerebral character studies.

The word "GROUNDED" has become popular to the Nolanites hasn't it. What is grounded about Nolan's approach?

The idea that Nolan's Batman is somehow something closer to reality is laughable.

Every other aspect of these films is pretty realistic, but Batman, his armored suit and his toys are not

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Old 01-25-2012, 09:25 AM   #69
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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If you're referring to the Mr. Freeze design from B:TAS, I always found the purple gloves weird.
You actually have Mike Mignola to thank for that... he came up with that entire design.

But Bruce Timm did approve it.

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Old 01-25-2012, 12:42 PM   #70
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

As great as the Nolan films are, they lack a certain fun that Burton's films had.

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Old 01-25-2012, 12:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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As great as the Nolan films are, they lack a certain fun that Burton's films had.
Not for me they don't.

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Old 01-25-2012, 01:22 PM   #72
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I think at times they become victims of their own heavy handed pretenses and ridiculous exposition. However that criticism pretty much applies to every post-BB Nolan project outside of The Prestige for me. So it's not exclusive to the Bat movies and not enough of a hindrance to kill their entertainment for me neither.

They're not the visceral experiences that I find the Burton movies to be (especially the first one). I don't even think they've tapped into the potential of Bale in that role at all while Burton did so with Keaton. They don't leave me humming the theme over the credits or wanting to speed down the road in a batmobile afterwards; but they're still very effective forms of entertainment.

TDK is still my favorite Batman movie overall. BB while really flawed (I pretty much hate a lot of the supporting cast's acting as well as the ****** 3rd act) is still the best live action movie starring the character to me so far. It attempted to make him 3 dimensional and Bale completely sold it. Even though I feel he was still let down script wise and could've been even better in something more focused & better structured.

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Old 01-25-2012, 02:05 PM   #73
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

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As great as the Nolan films are, they lack a certain fun that Burton's films had.
I'd call it iconicism. Not that they lack of it, but Burton could deliver with one image what Nolan haven't. I mean, nothing in Nolan's movies have been like that second with Batman spreading wings upon the two thugs.

But I would not for one second change what Nolan has done. Nor what Burton has. Every time I feel their movies lack of something the other did, I understand the words "you... complete... me." This is the way I enjoy both directors' movies.

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Old 01-25-2012, 02:38 PM   #74
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I think the fact that both directors made 4 pieces of solid cinema with the same foundations is a testament to how rich and diverse this character and his world really are. What other superhero franchise has had 4 critically and financially well received live action movie entries? not even Superman and certainly not the X-Men. Sometimes Batman fans forget just how good they really have it.

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Old 01-25-2012, 04:13 PM   #75
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Default Re: What did Christopher Nolan think of the other Batman movies?

I bought Batman Begins: The Screenplay, and at the front they have a Q and A with Nolan and Goyer. Both are asked about Burton. Here’s what Nolan says:

What did you think of the preceding films, notably Tim Burton?

“I think the first film has its place in history; what Tim Burton did could certainly be considered visionary – but it didn’t speak to me personally. It’s not a great personal favorite of mine. It wasn’t my Batman. It didn’t speak to me on that level, even though I appreciated all the skill and artistry of it. It wasn’t the Batman film I’d wanted to see, in terms of a film that showed his origin story. I felt like there was a version of Batman that never got made in 1979 – ten years before. When Dick Donner made Superman in 1979, it seems odd that they didn’t do Batman in that same way – with that epic sensibility.”

You must have read Miller’s books around the time of the 1989 Batman, and already been thinking in the opposite direction to Burton…

“Yeah, it was right around that time. The thing with Burton is that he had the challenge of convincing a cinema audience that you could have a ‘cool’ Batman film. Convincing an audience who remembers that the TV show was ridiculous. And he did it, he succeeded. The way he did it was to make the entire world that he lives in – Gotham – as peculiar and extraordinary as Batman is. So he fits in with that type of hyper-real, hyper-stylized universe on its own terms. That then convinced everybody that you could have a ‘cool’ Batman film. So that isn’t a hurdle that we have to get over with this film and, because of that, we are more free to treat the world around him as more ordinary and so allow his extraordinary nature to stand out. For me it was very important that the audience watching the film would feel for people in Gotham – Batman is an extraordinary a figure for them as he is for us in the audience.

Goyer had this to say:

How did you relate to the portrayal of batman in the films compared to the comic books?

Well, I liked the way he was portrayed in the comic books much more than he was in the films. I liked the first of the previous films [Tim Burton’s Batman 1989]. But I felt the later films became more akin to the TV show and were somewhat out of synch with the way that batman was currently being depicted in the comic books.

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