TDK's Joker: The best film villain of all time?

[Nevincer]

Eh, I wouldn't call Ratchet a "villain"... the film makes you hate her and she's an antagonist, but I really wouldn't agree with that classification. Also, once again it seems people are pulling classic film villains out of the hat and comparing their reputation of saturating pop culture with Ledger instead of the raw performances. The former came to them with time, just because Ledger's Joker lacks the iconography of those characters at the moment doesn't make him any lesser than them.

[The Morningstar]

No one is comparing their effect on pop culture. If we were Joker would win every time. Especially Ledger's Joker who had a whole new breed of freaky fanboys and fangirls.

I just think there is many better cinematic villains than Ledger's Joker. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great villain. But best EVER? In all of cinemas history? No chance. People go on about Ledger disappearing into the role? Yea, so what? He put in an amazing acting performance, doesn't mean the character itself is the best villain of all time.

I'd put the likes of Commodus, Sgt Barnes, Ratchet, Lector, Vader, Keyser Soze and countless others above Ledgers Joker, as an actual character.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I didn't seen Ratched as a villain. She's doing her job, which is working with a bunch of mental patients. The baseball thing is a ***** move, sure, but is she really so despicable?

[Brain Damage]

I totally agree with the people who say that Ratchet isn't a villain.
Really, she's just a ****, but that doesn't make her a villain.
Cruella DeVile, now that's a villain.

[Boom]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

No one is comparing their effect on pop culture. If we were Joker would win every time. Especially Ledger's Joker who had a whole new breed of freaky fanboys and fangirls.

I just think there is many better cinematic villains than Ledger's Joker. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great villain. But best EVER? In all of cinemas history? No chance. People go on about Ledger disappearing into the role? Yea, so what? He put in an amazing acting performance, doesn't mean the character itself is the best villain of all time.

I'd put the likes of Commodus, Sgt Barnes, Ratchet, Lector, Vader, Keyser Soze and countless others above Ledgers Joker, as an actual character.

How could I forget Keyser Soze? Or John Doe for that matter?

Two great villainous turns by Spacey .

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Boom

How could I forget Keyser Soze? Or John Doe for that matter?

Two great villainous turns by Spacey .

I think the script was better than Spacey, personally. Not that he wasn't great - he really was - but his performance rang a bit too close to Hannibal Lecter for me.

[marcvader]

Bill Lumbergh

[Mistah K88]

TDK's Joker was a good villain, great even...but the best film villain of ALL time? Let's not get crazy now...

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Mistah K88

TDK's Joker was a good villain, great even...but the best film villain of ALL time? Let's not get crazy now...

I agree that he's not the greatest film villain of all time, but I really don't get why people are just so shocked by the very idea of it. What makes him have any less of a qualification for the slot of greatest movie villain than anyone else?

In twenty years, I guarantee you that he'll be amongst the top 10 of nearly every greatest movie villain list.

[Fudgie]

He's secured his place in cinema history as one of the best.

[CConn]

Not to be disrespectful to anyone, but I don't get what makes all of these other villains so high above the Joker. Especially when you consider Ledger's performance.

Vader? He was my favorite villain of all time. But the icy mystique he had originally in A New Hope that gained him his notoriety has slowly been lost as his character has been fleshed out. After the prequels - where he was portrayed as a whiny adolescent - I really can't say he's the absolute best anymore.

Keyser Soze? A really cool character. But at the same time, it was a character who's mystique was mainly drawn from the fact we didnt know who he was. Soze was more an idea than anything else. And Spacey played his part well. But was it as commanding a performance as Ledger's? I wouldn't say so.

Hannibal Lector is the one that would probably give Joker the best run for his money. He is creepy, horrifying, and Hopkins does give a tremendous performance. But, all things considered, did Hopkins really transform into the role like Ledger did? Or was he merely playing in his normal wheelhouse, but as a serial killer? I feel like the answer is the latter.

And as for the creepiness of Lector, is the fava beans speech much more horrifying than the Joker's story of being mutilated as a child? Both are pretty disturbing. And if anything is holding Joker back in this territory, it's that he was in a PG-13 movie and Lector was in an R-rated movie.

As odd as it may be, I think the only villain I've seen who's character and performance was comparable to Ledger's would be John Hurt's Caligula in I, Claudius. And that's again, purely due to just how good Hurt played that role.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by CConn

Not to be disrespectful to anyone, but I don't get what makes all of these other villains so high above the Joker. Especially when you consider Ledger's performance.

Vader? He was my favorite villain of all time. But the icy mystique he had originally in A New Hope that gained him his notoriety has slowly been lost as his character has been fleshed out. After the prequels - where he was portrayed as a whiny adolescent - I really can't say he's the absolute best anymore.

Keyser Soze? A really cool character. But at the same time, it was a character who's mystique was mainly drawn from the fact we didnt know who he was. Soze was more an idea than anything else. And Spacey played his part well. But was it as commanding a performance as Ledger's? I wouldn't say so.

Hannibal Lector is the one that would probably give Joker the best run for his money. He is creepy, horrifying, and Hopkins does give a tremendous performance. But, all things considered, did Hopkins really transform into the role like Ledger did? Or was he merely playing in his normal wheelhouse, but as a serial killer? I feel like the answer is the latter.

And as for the creepiness of Lector, is the fava beans speech much more horrifying than the Joker's story of being mutilated as a child? Both are pretty disturbing. And if anything is holding Joker back in this territory, it's that he was in a PG-13 movie and Lector was in an R-rated movie.

As odd as it may be, I think the only villain I've seen who's character and performance was comparable to Ledger's would be John Hurt's Caligula in I, Claudius. And that's again, purely due to just how good Hurt played that role.

Very good points. If the prequels had not been made then I would be inclined to name him as the best of all time.

Ironically claims of TDK's Joker as the best of all time will grow in time because there is Ledger is not able to reprise the character and the Nolan chose not to bring the character back.

[The Morningstar]

I don't understand how people don't consider Ratchet a villain. She is the one who drove McMurphy insane. She is the one who kept antagonising and antagonising him, until he finally went completely bat **** and tried to off her, leading to his lobotomy.

I believe she knew what she was doing all along. She knew McMurphy wasn't really insane and was along for a free ride and to avoid prison... and she turned it on him. She was like "Oh, so you think you can get out of prison and get an easy ride in a nut house? I'll show you how easy it is..." To me it's quite obvious in the way she treats McMurphy that she is purposefully antagonising him, trying to get him to snap. It's like the boy who cried wolf, kinda, sorta.

Great villain. If you think her character was just doing her job, then i'm sorry, you didn't get her character.

And another great villain who is a corrupter is Bob Barnes from Platoon. He's the dark mentor figure, whilst Elias is the light mentor figure. And in the end, he achieves victory by urging Sheen's character to kill him, which he does.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by raybia

Very good points. If the prequels had not been made then I would be inclined to name him as the best of all time.

Ironically claims of TDK's Joker as the best of all time will grow in time because there is Ledger is not able to reprise the character and the Nolan chose not to bring the character back.

Oh yeah, I agree. If the prequels had never happened, Vader would be the best easily.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by CConn

Oh yeah, I agree. If the prequels had never happened, Vader would be the best easily.

Not to open a separate topic but one of the things I would have done on the prequels is open it up with Anakin already a grow man in the middle of one of his adventures as a Jedi ala Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Who really wants to see any great antagonist or protagonist in their youth? Imagine:


JFK: The Wonder Years
James Bond: Baby Spy
The Bourne Diaper Changing
Joker: The infant giggles
Han: Solo in the crib

[CConn]

It wasn't even that. Because even when Anakin was a war-hardened adult in ROTS, Lucas still characterized him as a whiny little *****.

Anakin should've been characterized like Harvey Dent in TDK; a really upstanding guy, who you liked and wanted to see succeed who, unfortunately, but understandably fell to the dark side due to extreme emotional and psychological stressors.

Anakin was never characterized as likable, and his fall really wasn't that understandable either.

[raybia]

Originally Posted by CConn

It wasn't even that. Because even when Anakin was a war-hardened adult in ROTS, Lucas still characterized him as a whiny little *****.

Anakin should've been characterized like Harvey Dent in TDK; a really upstanding guy, who you liked and wanted to see succeed who, unfortunately, but understandably fell to the dark side due to extreme emotional and psychological stressors.

Anakin was never characterized as likable, and his fall really wasn't that understandable either.

Oh I agree. I related it to Raiders as in how Indiana Jones was portrayed in the beginning as this bigger than life hero, he was incorruptible. Imagine if by The Last Crusade if Indy joined the Nazi's? It unimaginable.

That's the way Anakin should have been portrayed. We all knew that Anakin was going to turn to the dark side but his characterization should have been such that when it happen it still should have shocked us.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by CConn

Ledger wasn't Ledger in TDK. He transcended himself and truly became someone else. Without question, one of my favorite performances of all time.

Bumping this post, but this is how I feel about it. Ledger's Joker is something that really did elevate TDK. And it's something that I'll always treasure. I remember seeing some movie in 2008 - TDK was one of the trailers beforehand. Me and my friends commented on how much we were looking forward to it, and how we thought Heath was going to be amazing. And the next day I heard Heath had died. I was shocked and sad, but also loathed the inevitable talk that he was being praised only because he died. I say his death just made an already amazing performance more legendary and precious.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Someone mentioned John Doe from Se7en who is, in my opinion, better than the Joker especially considering how Spacey is essentially given the screentime of a bit player, but his presence can be felt from frame one before we ever hear or see him. Simply amazing.

No one should ever dismiss Joker's status as a screen villain, but he's not the best just very high up the list. Heath's Joker is not quite in the same league as Vader and Lecter, but only slightly (and maybe simply because he's only in one film).

One point I would make about the Joker is that Ian McKellen's Magneto is right up there with him. Both of those villains are nothing short of perfect and nothing short of brilliant. I think Heath's incredible chameleon like transformation makes him stand out in ways that Magneto doesn't seem to, but Ian McKellen's performance is great, very nuanced, and very well acted.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Darkhunt

Eh, I wouldn't call Ratchet a "villain"...

Oh, this game is fun, I wouldn't call what I just did "posting". No, she's definitely a villain.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Please stop with the "prequels ruined Vader" nonsense. The only Darth Vader anyone cares about is in those movies for the last five minutes. No one think about Hayden Christensen while watching A New Hope unless they're some virgin Star Wars fan. I watch A New Hope to get away from the prequels. If I thought about the prequels while watching the originals, that'd be like having sex with Blake Lively and fantasizing it is Kathy Bates.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by moviedoors

He's tied with Norman Bates and Anton Chigurh.

To me Joker is better than Norman Bates. I'd also say that overall, Joker is up there with Vader, but if you're confining it to just Heath then he's got to move down the list. I mean for many people Heath isn't even their favorite Joker. All the Joker's have been great. For me Hammill still is my quintessential Joker, while Heath is close to tied with him.

[roach]

I think Norman Bates is a greater villain...he is in a great movie by a great film maker and made people think twice about taking showers.

[CConn]

Eh, I think Psycho has become less impressive with time.

It's not even in the Top 5 of my favorite Hitchcock films.

[TheBat812]

I'd say in both performance and in terms of what the character does for the movie (in terms of visceral and figurative/thematic levels), TDK's Joker is certainly toward the top of all-time villains.