Should this Superman kill? - Part 1

[manofsteel4life]

And thats why my friends is why people think Bats is cooler.....it's sad but true

[Franklin Richards]

Being evil isn't cool.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Franklin Richards

Being evil isn't cool.

Not when you're the hero. Bats and Supes shouldn't kill.

[El Payaso]

That depends on the hero and take. James Bond kills and he's still a hero-like figure, not to mention the embodiment of coolness.

But for Superman, no matter what take you thinkl of, it feels off.

[Greeneyes]

Bond is Human,Bats is Human,killing is a Human trait,we can accept it,but Superman is not,he is far more,and it feels wrong because he is a God like saviour even if we don't like to think of him as one,he can be the ultimate role model to humanity without a religious aspect as well.

It would break peoples hearts and feel ultimately let down if he killed or was bad,because then what hope have we got if even he can commit such a crime or sin.

I'm very aware right now that he is a fictional alien who can fly.

[hopefuldreamer]

Killing isn't a exclusively human trait. It's a trait of many different species, including some kryptonians as well as numerous other alien races.

Superman doesn't kill, not because he's better than humans, because he's some kind of God or because Kryptonians are instinctively a better race, but because he's as good as a human can be, and he has the means (superpowers + intelligence) not to have to kill.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

1. not because he's better than humans

2. but because he's as good as a human can be

1. That is not the reason why he doesn't kill, but he IS better than humans.

2. He's not human so that does not apply in this case.

[hopefuldreamer]

I disagree on both points.

That's really all I have to say...

[Prime]

Well he is not human and that isn't my opinion it's a fact. And he is better than us. He would never think that of himself of course, but he is. Evolution. He's Kryptonian, you know. And that's all I have to say, because if someone tries to tailor the character to their own perceptions and desires so much that they try to make him 100% human and claim he is on our evolution tree to be measured, than I really have no desire to converse about that.

[The Morningstar]

I think HS was being figurative, not literal.

Superman isn't human. But he is the most HUMANE that a human can be.

[Krumm]

Originally Posted by Prime

Well he is not human and that isn't my opinion it's a fact. And he is better than us. He would never think that of himself of course, but he is. Evolution. He's Kryptonian, you know. And that's all I have to say, because if someone tries to tailor the character to their own perceptions and desires so much that they try to make him 100% human and claim he is on our evolution tree to be measured, than I really have no desire to converse about that.

I think you missed her point entirely. It's a nurture over nature argument in this case. Regardless of his species, he was raised by humans and has learned the true meaning of humanity -- this is also a fact.

[Greeneyes]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

Killing isn't a exclusively human trait. It's a trait of many different species, including some kryptonians as well as numerous other alien races.

Superman doesn't kill, not because he's better than humans, because he's some kind of God or because Kryptonians are instinctively a better race, but because he's as good as a human can be, and he has the means (superpowers + intelligence) not to have to kill.

Obviously killing is not just a Human trait,but other alien species don't really come into this,and what I meant was that we react differently to Humans killing as appose to Superman who is the best he can be,and doesn't kill,lie and helps mankind to an extent.

Him being better,being a saviour or a Godlike figure is how some people on Earth see him,not how he sees himself.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Greeneyes

Bond is Human,Bats is Human,killing is a Human trait,we can accept it,but Superman is not,he is far more,and it feels wrong because he is a God like saviour even if we don't like to think of him as one,he can be the ultimate role model to humanity without a religious aspect as well.

It would break peoples hearts and feel ultimately let down if he killed or was bad,because then what hope have we got if even he can commit such a crime or sin.

I'm very aware right now that he is a fictional alien who can fly.

I agree with you on Superman. But don't tell me God didn't have a thing for killing.

[The Morningstar]

Supes makes God look like a blood thirsty *******.

[Kurosawa]

Actually, not killing IS a Kryptonian trait. It's why once civilization started to form on Krypton, capital punishment was the first thing to go. And it's why Krypton was so advanced-because not only was Krypton scientifically advanced, it was also socially advanced.







"There was a right and a wrong in the Universe and that distinction was not very difficult to make."-Miracle Monday.

Superman's code against killing is one of the bedrocks on which Kryptonian philosophy is built. And it goes hand-in-hand with Superman's main belief: "Do good to others and every man can be a superman."-that is "the way" that Jor-El speaks of Superman showing humanity, and that is how humanity can, in Superman's view, transcend itself. Transcendence through altruism. Superman's philosophy is a mixture of Kryptonian principles and the Kent's ethics. And it is the Kent's ethics, not just "midwestern farm ethics", like any farmer could have raised him so well. Ma and Pa Kent were to morality and ethics what Jor-El and Lara were to science.

[KalMart]

Should this Superman kill?

- Not as a plot gimmick just to get him Super-pissed

- Not as a plot gimmick just to inject extreme emotion

- Certainly not as a reckless consequence to his actions, even if those who dies were his enemies...a la SR and the pillar.

- Not without it respecting the extreme cost of losing a life and presenting a situation where as ultimately painful as it is, we couldn't blame anyone for having to make that choice with no other available.

That said here was a story idea I had for a long time....

I always had this story idea of Brainiac in full-attack mode on Metropolis...and since he can control all earthly technology he's creating numerous disasters at the same time. So much so that even Superman can't be all places at once. As fighter planes are sent in to fight Brainiac, he takes control of one and sends it screaming towards a highly-populated building. Superman is occupied on the other side of the city holding up a skyscraper that's about to topple over with one hand, and suspending a cable-car full of passengers whose cables had snapped with the other....high above the ground. He can't let go of either one. The fighter jet is just seconds away from hitting the building on the opposite end of the city, Superman can't get there in time.....so he does the only thing he can do to save the people in the building....



....he vaporizes the fighter plane with his heat vision from miles away...including the pilot inside....mere feet away from hitting the building...saving hundreds of people from certain death, but ending the life of one. And Brainiac mocks Superman for it....which fills Superman with a nearly helpless sense of rage, horror, and guilt. Brainiac then stops and disappears...his current plan complete: break Superman's spirit.

This was before TDK came out, and I felt that the most effective thing about the Joker as a villain wasn't his murderous lunacy, but his cruelty...creating impossible choices with unthinkable outcomes on both sides. I also said to myself..."Darn...I was hoping Brainiac could do something like that."

Superman made the right choice, the only choice he could...but it doesn't make him feel any better. He wills himself to attend the funeral of the downed pilot, trying to keep his composure as he approaches the pilot's mother....but he can't. He wants to tell her he's sorry, but he can't get the words out. He doesn't have to....because she comforts him...she tells him she knows he made the right choice, just as her son made the right choice by defending his country.

Superman tells her that her son is a hero....through her tears, she replies "that means a lot coming from you." She hands Superman her son's military dog tags...which Superman wears when we see him next....looking out over the sea as Brainiac approaches over the horizon. "This isn't for revenge...", he thinks to himself as his fist clenches, "...this is for justice. This is for those who make the right choice."



Cheesy...but something along those lines.


Edit: Wait...CRAP! That's from that TAS episode when Turpin gets fried by Darkseid, right?


Never mind.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Prime

Well he is not human and that isn't my opinion it's a fact. And he is better than us. He would never think that of himself of course, but he is. Evolution. He's Kryptonian, you know. And that's all I have to say, because if someone tries to tailor the character to their own perceptions and desires so much that they try to make him 100% human and claim he is on our evolution tree to be measured, than I really have no desire to converse about that.

I am in no way suggesting he is biologically human.

But I don't consider that human or kryptonian morality traits have anything to do with biology.

I believe they are a product of the society you live in, the people around you and that they are LEARNED throughout your life.

I don't believe morals to be innate.

So I can't see how Superman's feelings towards taking another like have anything to do with being kryptonian.

The only way I could see that happening in a story is if you show that he was fine with killing until he found out about krypton.

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

I think HS was being figurative, not literal.

Superman isn't human. But he is the most HUMANE that a human can be.

Originally Posted by Krumm

I think you missed her point entirely. It's a nurture over nature argument in this case. Regardless of his species, he was raised by humans and has learned the true meaning of humanity -- this is also a fact.

Thanks guys, you got what I was saying

Originally Posted by Greeneyes

Obviously killing is not just a Human trait,but other alien species don't really come into this,and what I meant was that we react differently to Humans killing as appose to Superman who is the best he can be,and doesn't kill,lie and helps mankind to an extent.

Him being better,being a saviour or a Godlike figure is how some people on Earth see him,not how he sees himself.

I understand what your saying, but I don't think the majority of people would be against Superman killing a villain who was on a murderous rampage.

I think people would probably be pretty pissed at him for NOT killing in certain circumstances.

It's not 'the people' that expect more than killing from Superman. It's Superman who expects more from himself.

And that's not because he thinks 'I'm from Krypton, I should know better than these humans' IMO.

It's because he has learned throughout his life, from his parents, from his experiences in adulthood even... That he holds the value of life very very high. Any life. And he doesn't think he has the right to take one.

Originally Posted by Kurosawa

Actually, not killing IS a Kryptonian trait. It's why once civilization started to form on Krypton, capital punishment was the first thing to go. And it's why Krypton was so advanced-because not only was Krypton scientifically advanced, it was also socially advanced.

"There was a right and a wrong in the Universe and that distinction was not very difficult to make."-Miracle Monday.

Superman's code against killing is one of the bedrocks on which Kryptonian philosophy is built. And it goes hand-in-hand with Superman's main belief: "Do good to others and every man can be a superman."-that is "the way" that Jor-El speaks of Superman showing humanity, and that is how humanity can, in Superman's view, transcend itself. Transcendence through altruism.

Superman's philosophy is a mixture of Kryptonian principles and the Kent's ethics. And it is the Kent's ethics, not just "midwestern farm ethics", like any farmer could have raised him so well. Ma and Pa Kent were to morality and ethics what Jor-El and Lara were to science.

I think that in interpretations where Krypton is an advanced culture morally like this, it certainly serves as a confirmation of his beliefs.

It's like looking at what Krypton was like is his way of seeing that what he wants for Earth IS possible.

(Though it doesn't look like this will be the case in MOS. I'd guess it'll be the opposite, and the demise of Krypton will be as a result of negative aspects of kryptonian society that mirror our own (I.e. War)).

But just because their society was against the death penalty, doesn't mean they were a completely peaceful race. They still had criminals and murderers.

And that's really all my point was. That 'killing' isn't something that no kryptonian is capable of doing. It's not innate in them when they are born not to kill.

So Superman having a no kill policy is not because he is alien.

It's a combination of his respect for life, and the 'boundaries' he must assign himself so as not to over step the line from 'helping' to 'ruling'.

[Bruce_Begins]

Dark Superman ? But he was like this in his early days in Golden age.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

Dark Superman ? But he was like this in his early days in Golden age.

Show me the frame where he shot him...

Oh wait, he doesn't!

[Bruce_Begins]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

Show me the frame where he shot him...

Oh wait, he doesn't!

Of course he doesn't, but He behaves like a vigilante (without killing anybody) and he does not hesitate to break few bones or teeth.

BTW, look how low his "S" shield is placed.

[Prime]

Originally Posted by hopefulsuicide

Show me the frame where he shot him...

Oh wait, he doesn't!

Indeed he doesn't, so that panel don't count! In all seriousness, I don't mind the early Superman (and in the new 52 AC) - the a bit naive and over zealous and giving thugs a scare or two, kind of Superman. He grows out of it eventually.

[Bruce_Begins]

Look at the receding hairlines and this Superman is just starting out as a superhero.

Cavill's hairline may become like this by the end of trilogy.

I hope Not !

[Prime]

[El Payaso]

Ah, thoise first comics Superman. I just love it. Sarcastic, cocky, but doing the right thing.

[LibidoLoca]

Oh snarkilicious Supes.

I want him to kill just to see the inevitable conversations it would generate on this board.