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Old 04-13-2012, 09:03 PM   #1
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Default Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it? I think so, if you look at Captain America comics from the 40s he spent most of his time fighting Nazis. Red Skull was created as a Nazi villain, he was second in command in Nazi Germany in the Marvel Universe. Red Skull being associated with the real world evil of the Nazis is part of what made him such a vile and sinister villain.

Hydra just doesn't pack the same punch the Nazis do. The Nazis are iconic symbols of evil in the modern world, I don't think Hydra can make the same claim. Red Skull not being associated with the Nazis makes him less evil and sinister, it makes him kinda generic. I think the movie would have better if it was a straight Cap vs. Nazis film.

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Old 04-13-2012, 09:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

The movie was a pretty light affair, so that may be why. It's a taboo. You still can't show swastikas in some country.

In the old comics, the Red Skull was essentially the embodiment of Nazi Germany. And they could have done that, but in a way, that does make him a boring character.

Still, the movie didn't really do much with its setting.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I don't think it had any effect on the movie at all.

Also, I think this thread may be a spark plug for bad memories of this forum's past...this won't end well.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I agree to a small extent. It really depends on how grounded in reality you are when you view the movie. If you try to examine every character from a real world point of view (I don't see why you would, but to each his own) then you have a point. However, in the context of the movie I believe the fact that HYDRA poses as much of a threat to the Axis as they do to the Allies actually makes them a much scarier group.

One of the most miraculous things this movie does is tackles a seemingly nationalistic character in a nationalistic setting against nationalistic villains and makes it all ''nation neutral''. Seriously, it's pretty goddamn amazing that they managed to pull it off. Some would say that they ''took the coward's way out'' but what they accomplished in the movie was actually far harder. It's easy to say ''Nazis are bad, Allies are good'', and it would have been effective but that's been done in many movies.

In this movie you specifically have a hero that doesn't necessarily want to kill Nazis (''I don't like Bullies'') and a villain that wants to kill everyone, including Nazis (''His target is everywhere''). Like I said, the fact that the movie is ''nation neutral'' despite it's setting is a quite the feat. I appreciate the way they handled a movie that could have easily been too pro America and too anti Nazi. The poor Germans have held this negative stigma like shame on their shoulders since the 40s, so I'm glad this movie took it easy on them for once.

It makes me facepalm so hard when people (not you) claim this movie is jingoistic or patriotic. They did everything possible to make the story show that Steve is just pure hearted and would fight for any country's freedom.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

Only problem is, that was the whole point of the character. It should have been about American patriotism (the old fashioned kind), and Nazi / German nationalism. That's the whole ****ing point. It's a period piece. Captain America in the 1940's, was exactly that, and the Red Skull was the embodiment of Nazism and German nationalism.

And how can you be too anti-Nazi?

Turning it into a generic conflict is an impressive feat, but not necessarily a good one.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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Only problem is, that was the whole point of the character. It should have been about American patriotism (the old fashioned kind), and Nazi / German nationalism. That's the whole ****ing point.

And how can you be too anti-Nazi?
You clearly don't understand Captain America, the character. It's fine, most people don't. They see the name and the uniform and think he's exactly what you think he is.

Despite his name, he fights for the ideals the country was founded upon, not the country. That's why he's consistently gone against the government in so many stories over all the decades of his existence. The character that went around going ''This is for America!'' was gone a long time ago. He's far more universal than his name implies, and the movie shows you that if you're willing to see it.

So no, that's not the point. You missed the point entirely.

As for too anti-Nazi, I already clearly said why in my post. The negative stigma of Nazi Germany has been a shame for many Germans since the end of the war. It's an uncomfortable topic for many of them. This movie actually SPARES them for once by giving a different antagonist.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

What exactly do you think a country is but the ideals it was founded upon? Read the old comics, they were war propaganda. I understand that they want to temper that, with more modern sensibilities (political correctness), but he's still a guy dressed up in an American flag, working for a propaganda machine in the movie.

The Red Skull is supposed to be the embodiment of Nazism / German nationalism. In the comics he was Hitler's right hand man. The movie turns him into a generic evil overlord with a superiority complex. Aside from making him bland, it's not true to the comics.

Well, we wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. This is supposed to be a movie set during World War II, with a high ranking Nazi as its main villain. With the Nazis as villains. It's supposed to be anti-Nazi. What you're saying is political correctness gone mad.

And this is a period piece. Though it's easy to forget.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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What exactly do you think a country is but the ideals it was founded upon?
If you think the current status of America reflects what it was founded upon, I really don't know what to say... I can already tell you're too smart to know that statement is anywhere near true.

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Read the old comics, they were war propaganda. I understand that they want to temper that, with more modern sensibilities (political correctness), but he's still a guy dressed up in an American flag, working for a propaganda machine in the movie.
Keyword being old comics. The character changed so drastically since his inception. Anyone who's read even a small amount of Captain America and Avengers comics knows that he's nothing like that and hasn't been for a long time. As for ''being a guy dressed in a flag'', that's a surface detail. It doesn't make Steve what he is, the movie shows that very well too.


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The Red Skull is supposed to be the embodiment of Nazism / German nationalism. In the comics he was Hitler's right hand man. The movie turns him into a generic evil overlord with a superiority complex. Aside from making him bland, it's not true to the comics.
Not being true to the comics doesn't automatically make something bad. We all know that, quite frankly, a lot of stuff in comics is pretty dumb. In my opinion, a lot of the changes in the MCU in particular have changed the original material to be much more mature. Here's the first point in our discussion where it really becomes a matter of opinion. I like and appreciate both versions of Skull, and find both to be completely acceptable. It's fine that you like one over the other, but I personally think they did a good move with making movie Skull more neutral.




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Well, we wouldn't want to hurt their feelings.
I don't know why you'd be sarcastic here. Are you just trying to argue for no reason? Come on, this is an entire nation of people here. Be sensible. I think it's fantastic and frankly beautiful that Marvel Studios went out of their way to make this movie accessible for Germany and so should you.

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This is supposed to be a movie set during World War II, with a high ranking Nazi as its main villain. With the Nazis as villains. It's supposed to be anti-Nazi. What you're saying is political correctness gone mad.

And this is a period piece. Though it's easy to forget.
It's also a movie about a guy dressed in a flag fighting a dude with a red skull on the roof of a nosediving plane. It's fantasy with small roots in reality. Why in the world would you want a serious WWII setting for Captain America? The movie setting is far more appropriate for this character than a gritty, true to WWII movie would have been. You know that.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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I agree to a small extent. It really depends on how grounded in reality you are when you view the movie. If you try to examine every character from a real world point of view (I don't see why you would, but to each his own) then you have a point. However, in the context of the movie I believe the fact that HYDRA poses as much of a threat to the Axis as they do to the Allies actually makes them a much scarier group.
Except Hydra doesn't have the same track record the Nazis had. The Nazis conquered most of Europe and killed millions of people in the process. Hydra failed in all of its objectives. Plus do you really think the average guy on the street would think Hydra are more evil then the Nazis? The Nazis have been icons for evil for over 60 years, compared to them, Hydra just seems goofy. Nazism is a real ideology, Hydra is just a group of generic evil villains who want power for power sakes, that is not nearly as scary or compelling as the ideology of hate that Nazism is built on. The Nazis are far more iconic and menacing then Hydra is, Nazis come off as a bigger threat to the allies then Hydra does.

Plus it seems silly that a control freak like Hitler would allow any group to rival the Nazis in the Reich. Hitler purged his own party of anyone who was considered a threat to him in the "Night of the Long Knives", so Hitler just giving the Skull as much resources as he wanted with no real oversight just seems incorrect. What there were no other Nazis then came asking questions after the Skull killed those first 3? Heck Hitler was such a control freak, he would have likely given the Red Skull SS handlers to be on sight at all times, to make sure the weapons production were going on schedule, not just send 3 Nazi Representatives after not getting any results from the Skull for a year.

Stuff like this takes me out of the movie, it feels like it really isn't set in WWII, when Nazis are hardly mentioned.

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One of the most miraculous things this movie does is tackles a seemingly nationalistic character in a nationalistic setting against nationalistic villains and makes it all ''nation neutral''. Seriously, it's pretty goddamn amazing that they managed to pull it off. Some would say that they ''took the coward's way out'' but what they accomplished in the movie was actually far harder. It's easy to say ''Nazis are bad, Allies are good'', and it would have been effective but that's been done in many movies.

In this movie you specifically have a hero that doesn't necessarily want to kill Nazis (''I don't like Bullies'') and a villain that wants to kill everyone, including Nazis (''His target is everywhere''). Like I said, the fact that the movie is ''nation neutral'' despite it's setting is a quite the feat. I appreciate the way they handled a movie that could have easily been too pro America and too anti Nazi. The poor Germans have held this negative stigma like shame on their shoulders since the 40s, so I'm glad this movie took it easy on them for once.

It makes me facepalm so hard when people (not you) claim this movie is jingoistic or patriotic. They did everything possible to make the story show that Steve is just pure hearted and would fight for any country's freedom.
Except Red Skull being "nation neutral" doesn't fit the character. In the comics he was an unrepentant racist, even when giving up his Nazi ideology in the comics, he was still a racist. Red Skull had a bad life so he blamed other people for it. Red Skull's racism is a outlet for the times he felt powerless as a child, being an orphan on the streets. Red Skull was victim as a child, so now he wishes to victimize people and it doesn't matter who he is tormenting, as long as the other person is suffering.

In many ways he represented both Hitler and Wiemar Germany, Hitler was a nobody who was given unlimited power, like the Skull and Germany was a country in civil and economic turmoil that turned to an ideology based on hate, similar to how the Skull was a poor and tormented orphan before becoming a Nazi.

To me all this is interesting then the Skull we saw in the movie, a generic power mad "I'm insane so I am going to kill a bunch of random people, hee, hee!" type villain. The Red Skull in the comics is far more scary then the one in the movies, his acts of cruelty are far more twisted and personal and his reasoning for his both believable and completely unsympathetic. Its believable that some people join hate groups take out the frustrations of their own failed lives, that's what makes the Skull so scary. He is the type of evil that can exist in the real world, unhappy people taking out their frustrations on people different from themselves.

Red Skull in the movie never had that act of personal cruelty that made pure evil, rather then just some Bond villain. Red Skull in the comics nearly throwing his own baby daughter into the ocean seems far more cruel and sadistic then anything the movie Skull did. I think making Red Skull "nation neutral" rather then the racist Nazi he was in the comics, weakened the character, not strengthened him.


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Old 04-13-2012, 11:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

All good points Overlord. Like I said above, I like both versions of Skull.

To me, you have to look at the medium and the circumstances. This is a modern swashbuckling adventure movie featuring a pure hearted hero that's supposed to be accessible to everyone. You have only two hours to tell a story. Within THESE circumstances, I think Red Skull is perfect and they did the best job they could.

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Old 04-13-2012, 11:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I'd rather steer clear of politics. But Captain America was very much a product of his time. Now, he has changed, that is true, but that's also because of how the character developed. He became much more "modern" by literally being brought into the modern world. They could have had fun with that.

Though I don't see why that matters here. He is an America icon, fighting, what was supposed to be a Nazi German icon. Now, you can certainly make an argument, that turning the Red Skull into a generic fascist gave the movie a broader market, or even improved the movie (I'd debate the latter), but it certainly doesn't make it any truer to the comics, old or new.

I am not expecting Saving Private Ryan with Captain America, but this is a period piece, and they are underusing the setting. They changed the characters. Making them rather bland in Red Skull's case.

Also, I really doubt anybody in modern-day Germany cares that the villains of a movie set during World War II are German. Especially in a movie based on a 70 year old comic book.

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Old 04-13-2012, 11:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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All good points Overlord. Like I said above, I like both versions of Skull.

To me, you have to look at the medium and the circumstances. This is a modern swashbuckling adventure movie featuring a pure hearted hero that's supposed to be accessible to everyone. You have only two hours to tell a story. Within THESE circumstances, I think Red Skull is perfect and they did the best job they could.
I felt the movie was too light hearted and not true enough to the time period it was supposed to be set in. I realize they wouldn't have had time to address the Skull's back story in the film, but he still should have been a Nazi and a racist, representing the evils of Nazism. Red Skull being a Nazi and a racist are central to the character in the comics. Red Skull should have committed at least one personalized act of evil in the movie, a petty act of cruelty and sadism that establishes what monster he is, something done not in part of some quest for power, but done for a trivial purpose.

What I didn't like about the Skull in the films, is he was evil for no real reason, just wanting power for power's sake. In the comics, his actions has more purpose, he served the Nazis because his heart was filled hatred and the Nazis gave him an outlet for that. In the movies the Skull's motive was just a thirst power, but in the comics, his motive is hate. Hate is scarier, hate makes people lose their humanity, dehumanize their follow man and has lead to the worst crimes in human history. The type of irrational hate that the Nazis represent isn't something you can scare away or negotiate with, you have to destroy it. That's what Captain America should oppose, not some villain who just wants power because he is the villain.

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Old 04-14-2012, 04:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I think setting the film during a real war and then avoiding pretty much all of the aspects of that war did hurt the film some, if they were to afraid to go there then they should have set it during a made up war. Because of the route they took I'm left wondering why did it take Cap's friend being captured for him to stand up and take action while there were so many suffering all around.

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Old 04-14-2012, 05:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I honestly don't think it made the slightest bit of difference.

People connect the dots themselves.

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Old 04-23-2012, 09:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I don't think it hurt the movie but I read a review and the person who felt Hydra was the only flaw said this...."Nazis are there ultimate evil in the movie universe....having the Red Skull and Hydra kill Nazis softened them...they can't be all that bad if they hated Nazi's too"

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Old 04-25-2012, 08:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

It didn't hurt the movie with me and I don't think that it hurt the film with most other people who saw it.

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Old 04-25-2012, 08:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I don't think it did since it was stated that HYDRA was the Nazi deep science division, which was enough for me. Red Skull just went rogue and used the group on his own without the government's oversight anymore.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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Only problem is, that was the whole point of the character. It should have been about American patriotism (the old fashioned kind), and Nazi / German nationalism. That's the whole ****ing point. It's a period piece. Captain America in the 1940's, was exactly that, and the Red Skull was the embodiment of Nazism and German nationalism.

And how can you be too anti-Nazi?

Turning it into a generic conflict is an impressive feat, but not necessarily a good one.
Lol no it's not. Capt America wasn't about Nazism or German nationalism. It's not like the original comics talked about the repercussions of the Versailles treaty, the deficiencies of the Weimar Republic, the terrible economic Depression in Germany after WWI. It didn't even talk about Zionism, the perceived inequities of "foreign" influences in Germany like Britain or Jews etc. That's the nonsense that Nazism was about... none of that was ever addressed in the comics. Nazis were villains but only in the most generic sense. They were our enemies so they were bad... there wasn't anything in the at all about German nationalism or actual Nazism.

It was a kids' comic about a guy in Stars and Stripes kicking ass. That's why Capt America continued to be successful in the 60s and later when Nazis were far from the picture. The comics were never about Nazis, they were just the villains because that's who America was fighting at the time in the 40s.

The main problem is that guys like you really dont have a good knowledge of 1)history/Nazis/WWII OR 2)the Capt America comic. Anyone who thinks that Nazism was any sort of real driver in the dynamics of the original comics don't know it, it certainly wasn't about German nationalism. Nazis were important only in that that's who American was fighting the war against.

Hydra is much more appropriate villain, the idea that an actual historical power is powerful enough or evil enough to be a suitable villain for a superhero is just clueless. It's like arguing that Black Panther comics would be better if he fought Slave Masters rather than supervillains.

Also the idea that there's not enough villainization of Nazism in Hollywood that the US media skirts the issue is just ridiculous. Every Oscars there's some Holocaust movie or something else reminding Americans how bad the Nazis really were. The idea of making a Capt America comic book movie about "German Nationalism" is just a really myopic and bad idea. There's plenty of digs at Nazis and even modern Germans in these movies. Look at the current Avengers' movie, lilke all Hollywood movies, the only guy with the moral courage to standup to evil is the old guy with the Yiddish accent who shouts down Loki, then immediately afterwards Capt makes a dig at Hitler... in the AVENGERS movie. People get it... Nazis are bad, you can't watch a Hollywood movie even remotely connected to WWII or Germany without some message to let people know. Hydra was just a much better villain because they have lazers and faceless footsoldiers and all the supervillain stuff that makes then worthy to get beat up by Capt and his buds.

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Old 04-29-2012, 10:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it? I think so, if you look at Captain America comics from the 40s he spent most of his time fighting Nazis. Red Skull was created as a Nazi villain, he was second in command in Nazi Germany in the Marvel Universe. Red Skull being associated with the real world evil of the Nazis is part of what made him such a vile and sinister villain.

Hydra just doesn't pack the same punch the Nazis do. The Nazis are iconic symbols of evil in the modern world, I don't think Hydra can make the same claim. Red Skull not being associated with the Nazis makes him less evil and sinister, it makes him kinda generic. I think the movie would have better if it was a straight Cap vs. Nazis film.
Yep....I think you have a point. Political correctness....strikes again. You can't even insult a Nazi these days.

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I addressed this at the press conference. They tap danced around it by saying HYDRA are "uber-nazis."

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:49 AM   #21
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I am happy they deviated from the comics for a few reasons.

a) First, Nazi's have been overused. In fact, every scenario involving Nazis has been committed to celluloid at least twice. Even though Cap was a wartime piece, having Nazis as the primary villain would be generic. Hydra was more interesting.
b) It's about time Hollywood finally matured a bit and stopped demonizing Germany. Yes, the calamities from that iteration of the government cannot be glossed over nor forgotten, but using them in blockbuster or b-movies is not the way to address it.
c) Besides, their depictions are usually done with a juvenile hand: they are used to paint America as a perfect, flawless force...which is far from the truth, considering the Nazis used the designs for the American Indian reservations for the concentration camps. Or, the fact that amnesty was given to some of the top scientists/butchers at the end of the War, in return for us to pick their brains. The list goes on.
d) for the MCU continuity, it is important to establish Hydra, as it will be used down the line, alongside AIM. It's good to introduce them as the dominant evil, since it is connected to the majority of Cap's villains (such as Zemo and Strucker).
e) I agree with the above poster: Captain America stands as the opposition to tyrannies and the poster boy for democracy. While the exclusivity to the US has softened, making the character accessible is a wise financial decision as well as political one, considering the world's political climate, right now.

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Old 04-30-2012, 01:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

I don't think I would have minded as much if HYDRA would have actually been a threat but even with super weapons they were easily defeated every time the good guys showed up.

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Old 05-30-2012, 07:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

Good debate, I mostly agree with the overlord.

CATFA did so many things right- the Indiana Jones tone, Chris Evans, the way they perfectly captured Steve Rodgers altruistic never say die spirit, Making Cap appeal to everyone not just Americans, Hayley Atwell....

But making the Red Skull Hydra instead of a Nazi just 'cause Marvel did not want to be making Red Skull action figures with swastika armbands (why not just skip the armbands on the action figures) definitely detracted from the character.

Red Skull in the comics was positively scary. A fascist, racist monster. But the movie version was no where near as intimidating. Weaving's german accent was crap as well. A German actor would have been much better. Hydra just came across as typical summer blockbuster movie bad guys with silly laser guns.

I guess cause Marvel wanted the movie to have a broad age appeal including kids they shyed away from Red Skull being the racist Nazi monster he is supposed to be and toned him down. It sucks tho because aside form Hydra/Red Skull the rest of the film is great, and since Red Skull was not a Nazi and his story was made kid friendly it means the definitive CA WWII film has yet to be made. Which sucks because Chris Evans is perfect in the role.

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Old 05-30-2012, 09:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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The movie was a pretty light affair, so that may be why. It's a taboo. You still can't show swastikas in some country.

In the old comics, the Red Skull was essentially the embodiment of Nazi Germany. And they could have done that, but in a way, that does make him a boring character.

Still, the movie didn't really do much with its setting.
If you can show Nazis in an Indiana Jones movie I don't see why you couldn't in even a light hearted superhero movie.

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Old 05-30-2012, 09:11 PM   #25
roach
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Default Re: Did the fact there was hardly any real Nazis in this film hurt it?

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Originally Posted by Lead Cenobite View Post
If you can show Nazis in an Indiana Jones movie I don't see why you couldn't in even a light hearted superhero movie.
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