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Old 04-13-2012, 11:46 AM   #401
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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No you just had some serious problems comprehending the **** out of my original post. Maybe my writing wasn't clear enough for you before.

To reiterate verbatim:

"My point is not that it's a filmmable story my point is that it's an example from the source material amongst many that proves that you could find logical way of putting these characters together."

If that's not plain enough english I'm not saying "GIMME AN FC MOVIE" I'm just saying that FC is one of hundreds of examples in the comics that could be used as reference as to why these characters could work well as a unit.

Maybe "All it takes is a little research and imagination from the screenwriter hired for the job. It's not "unadaptable" stuff." confused you but I thought it was pretty obvious that I'm talking about JL as a franchise in this blurb here as anybody else who read that post seemed to gather.

Many, many, many talented writers have successfully managed to implement good enough research and had a vast enough imagination to adapt the JL successfully. Granted none of this has been in live action media I'll give you that. But then again apparently there was a script good enough for a live action project once before, good enough in the execs eyes that WB gave it a go ahead once upon a time.

It just cost them too damn much to produce it so they tabled the project. It proves that it's not impossible though. I don't care about shared DC universe on film at this point in time BTW. I stopped caring many years ago (mid 2000's) and even as a DC fan I've said it before and will say it again when it comes to movie universes make mine marvel.

They managed to take the ball and roll all the way with it so I couldn't care less about a DC movie universe even more so now since I have theirs. But it's ridiculous to act like JL is such an unfeasible concept to bring to the screen. It really is not. It's "pop culture icons against major threats" as I said before that pretty much writes itself.
I understood your post just fine, which is why I was able to point out the contradictions in later posts. You're trying to make something very hard sound very easy, and it's just not right. I didn't comment on the filmability of it because then I'd have to illustrate how the concept stuff necessary to make the whole JLA necessary doesn't fit in a 2 hour film, and that's just too much work for right now.

The point I can go to next, is disproving this idea that there are many comics that prove they work as a unit. As I have said, and illustrated, they are redundant characters. Successful stories, like FC, find high concept ways to keep them apart, prevent them from working as a unit. If you have counter examples where the JLA works as a unit in a comic story without forgetting their powers, I'd love to hear about them. I'd also love to see a JLA story where they didn't forget their powers by someone other than Morrison, cuz I can't think of one.

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Sorry dude but I can't fathom your logic here. They get put in those positions in the first place because they DO. I know people like to think movie execs are just coked up wealthy men who are out of touch with society in many ways. It's a tired joke with some semblance of truth but um well they also have the ability to gauge when to greenlight or pass on a project based on a 5 minute pitch. That IS their skillset lol

This is what they get paid 6 figures to do. Every day. While people "with taste" don't occupy movie executive offices. This is how they determine whether they're hiring "the right people" as you say in the first place. They hire the "right people" and greenlight the projects they do because they see that there is potential in those pitches to connect with the public in general. It's a business first and foremost. Their bottom line is to make money.

You don't make money without an audience. So how a movie will connect with the public in general based on their assessment and analysis of a pitch is a key factor in their decision making. It's common sense. They're not just making movies for the sake of making movies; they're making movies that are sell able and in many cases also have franchise potential.

You think they greenlit GL while talking about sequels prematurely just because? they saw franchise potential there. They picked a pitch that they felt could be sold to a big audience in the end. Granted the execution rendered all that moot for the time being. The fact that the movie with it's horrid word of mouth still managed to gross over $200 million though proved that they may have been right in there being an audience for that stuff in the first place.
It's their job, yes, but that doesn't give them magical clairvoyant powers. They constantly do focus groups because they don't know. They give proven directors leeway because they know they don't know. THAT is their skillset, not some intuitive powers that can take a 5 minute pitch and predict how it will fare with audiences. It's easy to look back and say 'well, obviously, it was this, so I wouldn't have done that' but that's not reality. That's just being judgmental.


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Old 04-13-2012, 12:25 PM   #402
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

Peter Berg? Why him?

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Old 04-14-2012, 10:43 AM   #403
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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I understood your post just fine, which is why I was able to point out the contradictions in later posts.
Huh?!?!

Quote:
You're trying to make something very hard sound very easy, and it's just not right.
Nope I'm simply stating that something "very hard" is not impossible.


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The point I can go to next, is disproving this idea that there are many comics that prove they work as a unit. As I have said, and illustrated, they are redundant characters.
You can't "disprove" this idea because THERE ARE many comics that prove that they work as a unit lmao jesus christ. Dude I even cited writers for you to look into when it comes to these JL comics. I'll re state this again since you seemed to ignore it the first time; the Gardner Fox run, Gerry Conway's run The Morrison run, the works of Cary Bates, Joe Kelly and Elliot Maggin.

Quote:
Successful stories, like FC, find high concept ways to keep them apart, prevent them from working as a unit. If you have counter examples where the JLA works as a unit in a comic story without forgetting their powers, I'd love to hear about them. I'd also love to see a JLA story where they didn't forget their powers by someone other than Morrison, cuz I can't think of one.
Look into the JL work of the writers I cited up there. I'll specifically mention The Obsidian Age by Kelly for now since it's actually pretty easy to find and it's not written by Morrison. There's one.

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Old 04-14-2012, 10:55 AM   #404
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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A Justice League story is an adaption, just like any other superhero movie has been. The same traits apply. It's not giong to be any more or less difficult than The Avengers film was to adapt, and it seems they took a fairly straightforward approach with that. It simply requires critical and creative thinking skills. It can be done. I wrote one in three days that was fairly well received. Surely an experienced screenwriter could write a good one.
Exactly.

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Old 04-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #405
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

I disagree, to the extent that I think it would take more effort to adapt the JLA than the Avengers, depending on the exact roster chosen ( due to the greater divergences of mythos ). This hardly means its impossible. I just don't think its worth giving much thought to, until at least one decent non-Batman movie is released.

It took five movies to set up for Avengers; if WB doesn't spend at least three movies doing setup for JLA, its pretty much doomed.

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Old 04-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #406
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So, I was just reading through the last few pages of this thread. Lots of great points of view. One person mentioned that WB has an opportunity to do something different than what Marvel/Disney has done. I think that approach combined with some of the "grand scale" story telling, where the JL's individuals are not depowered but shown in play against universal/dimensional threats, is the way to go. So many people say it cannot be done. That you can't just introduce these characters in a film and give then any weight. I have to call a little malarkey on that idea. Just do it differently. For example, look at the LOTR trilogy. I know it has been cited many times, but a fairly masterful, heavy handed, dramatic story with sooo much scope and character mixed with the action- This is what the JL needs IMO. Whether or not WB/DC/Legendary can ever bring it together is another matter, but JL can't be a "popcorn" flick per se. That's kind of what GL was, and the popcorn was STALE for the most part, lol.

To go back to the LOTR example, look at how the characters come into the film. I understand it was designed as a trilogy, but that kind of thinking is necessary for the JL as well. Make it entirely huge concept instead of going 1/4 or 1/2 way. Gods, icons, archetypes. That's what's in play. They don't have to have individual films first necessarily. I would kill for an excellent WW, Aquaman or Flash film as well, but their worlds are all at stake in a universal story.

The MISTAKE would be to make these characters "everymen". Flash and Batman are as close as we should get within the group. Set them apart and show the difference between these characters and Marvel's heroes. Just my 10 cents for now.

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Old 04-14-2012, 01:27 PM   #407
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

I agree there..

Just make a grand movie and split it into Two parts, like the final book on Harry Potter (Deathly Hallows) was split into two parts.

At the end of first part the audience will be kept at a cliffhanger, and they will surly return to watch the next part.

Release one part in Summer and the other part in winter holidays.

Film the two parts as one big four hour movie than make them into two parts of two hour each, that will save costs.

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Old 04-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #408
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the thing is, WB/DC doesn't have to do what marvel has done. Marvel is its own studio(even if owned by mickey) while WB was wb before they got the DC properties. the fact that there may not be a shared universe doesn't mean we won't get a JL film. in fact, we might be better off as fans if they don't try to stick square pegs into round holes. with nolan/GL/supes.

nolan's batman is done. snyder's supes is coming. WB can go straight into Kingdom Come and it would hands down turn into the best CBM ever. and every single film/franchise can still stand on its own.

the possibilities for the cast would be endless.

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Old 04-15-2012, 11:20 AM   #409
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^ Except that everything is done with the idea of being a franchise. They dont want one film, they want 6. Problem is they cant get 1 off the ground.

I thought Avengers would be hard to pull off. But they built it up over the course of several films. Time flies by, and 5 years later, we have multiple films all building up to the Avengers event.

You have to build a foundation for the characters to interact, and DC hasnt even gotten close to beginning to do that. Meanwhile, Marvel is moving ahead w/ IM3, Thor2, CaptA2, and Im sure work for a sequel to Avengers will start immediately. Theres talk about Wrights Ant-Man again, the big MCU film, and maybe Black Widow/Hawkeye/SHIELD film.

Really, DC and WB execs must have razors at their wrists right about now.


About using LOTR as a template, I've been saying this forever, and the perfect property to use it for, is X-Men.

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Old 04-15-2012, 12:44 PM   #410
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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really, dc and wb execs must have razors at their wrists right about now.

lmao

Alan Horn (the man who brought Nolan to Batman) >>> Jeff Robinov.

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Old 04-15-2012, 12:49 PM   #411
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

Didn't Nolan go to WB on his own about Batman?

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Old 04-15-2012, 12:57 PM   #412
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Didn't Nolan go to WB on his own about Batman?
Alan Horn was the guy that gave his pitch the OK.

Alan Horn is the guy who once said in an interview.

"It’s very prestigious, it’s very exciting, plus we are a filmmaker friendly company and have long-term relationships with filmmakers. Of course Clint Eastwood comes to mind immediately, but now Chris Nolan and even the emerging Ben Affleck are our filmmakers that we really care about deeply and we want to do right by them."

"with Million Dollar Baby, when the screenplay first came to us we passed, as you know. And I even went out and did some homework and saw this picture called Girl Fight with Michelle Rodriguez which did something like $1 million at the box office, which is nothing. Nikki, you have to know that saying no to Clint Eastwood was not easy to do. Not only is he an icon for our business but he is a fixture at Warner Bros for half of his 80 years. And he is respected like nobody else. And by me, too. I’ve been there for 11Ĺ years, I am very friendly with Clint, so when we said no, of course the ultimate responsibility for saying no was my own."

"He [Clint] was a total gentleman. And he just said, ‘Hey, I wouldn’t want you to do something you’re not crazy about or if something doesn’t feel right for you.’ And he took it around town and tried to get someone else to do it. And no one wanted to do it. And then he came back and we did it because of Clint. After you recently wrote about this, I called him. And I said, ‘Look, Nikki Finke wrote this article and she basically slammed me for not wanting to make Million Dollar Baby. You also were very unhappy with me.’ And he said to me, ‘Look, you put up the money for the movie, you did it, and we all enjoyed great success. And, at the end of the day, that’s what counts.’ And he expressed at least in his own laconic super-cool Clint way, that as far as he is concerned he has a great relationship with me. And I said to him, ‘It’s a total mistake on my part. I didn’t see it. I did not see it.’'

He was a smarter exec than Robinov has been since 2007.

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Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 PM   #413
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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^ Except that everything is done with the idea of being a franchise. They dont want one film, they want 6. Problem is they cant get 1 off the ground.

I thought Avengers would be hard to pull off. But they built it up over the course of several films. Time flies by, and 5 years later, we have multiple films all building up to the Avengers event.

You have to build a foundation for the characters to interact, and DC hasnt even gotten close to beginning to do that. Meanwhile, Marvel is moving ahead w/ IM3, Thor2, CaptA2, and Im sure work for a sequel to Avengers will start immediately. Theres talk about Wrights Ant-Man again, the big MCU film, and maybe Black Widow/Hawkeye/SHIELD film.

Really, DC and WB execs must have razors at their wrists right about now.


About using LOTR as a template, I've been saying this forever, and the perfect property to use it for, is X-Men.
if they wanted 6, they'd have six. every studios biggest concern is making money. which is why they're still suckling on the batman tit. if nolan is running dc things for wb, and they're not interested in a shared universe, its only logical that they make a JL film that stands alone. to me, a 'kingdom come' film is the perfect film to make at this point, since it will undoubtedly be a critical and commercial success, and after, it gives you an excuse to reboot bats.

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Old 04-15-2012, 02:53 PM   #414
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They'd want a JL stand alone yes but best believe they'd also be interested in sequels for said stand alone if it hits hard. JL Mortal was greenlit partly cause Miller pitched the idea as the first in a trilogy (also a reason he cast so young). They'd just treat JLA as it's own independent franchise.

I actually agree with the Nolan sentiment. TBH I think the GLC is more effective if they're the one force in the universe that could take on space level threats in their world.

I think The Flash stands out more in terms of his sheer impact on physics itself and his importance as a hero if he bounces off his rich supporting cast and rogues. I think Aquaman stands as a more regal and powerul presence and symbol if he's in a story where he's the only superhero involved etc.

For solo franchises I think that's a good route. Simply because you get to really push Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. to the limits that they could be pushed to as stand alone characters. Without having to have creators handicapping each other with conflicting visions and such. Every creator truly expresses themselves completely.

Including whoever they hire for JLA. JLA doesn't have to have a Batman like the one in the upcoming relaunch of the franchise or Nolan's movies etc. it could be a Batman that has already had a batfamily, that has known Superman for years etc. Not a Batman limited by the solo movies. Just another version.

It's not the Marvel vision it's different so it's not a clone and with the right execution it CAN be a success. The thing is are they willing to go far enough to reach that? do they really want to swing at Disney's neck that badly? we'll see with MOS cause if GL is an example well it doesn't quite seem like it.

I think the key to JLA outside of making it as epic as possible in scope is to hire really well established likeable actors in the roles. Like I'd go as far as saying Will Smith as John Stewart level of casting. If a JLA movie with unknowns cost as much as 220 mllion imagine one with stars? very expensive.

Not only are salaries a factor (especially with potential back end deal pay cut negotiations) to take into account pair it with the amount of money needed for the spectacle alone would be an extremely expensive endeavor. Possibly the most expensive movie ever made. I don't think they have any interest or a clue as to how to really make JLA happen. To me it's the movie business equivalent of a game company discussing and hyping up vapor ware.

"Guys we have a JLA script in the works" has been said for years now and they have nothing to show for it. Avengers is about to come and go and lead to phase 2 of the MCU and still not a JLA movie in sight. I'll believe it when I see it if it's meant to come soon. They really need to hire someone with the right vision and I don't think they will do that for a long time.

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Old 04-15-2012, 03:51 PM   #415
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

A critically acclaimed standalone JLA adaptation is certainly possible but WB needs to be dedicated in their vision. A JLA/WF/Trinity film can't be about responding back to Marvel Studios and The Avengers. And if that's the mentality, then they shouldn't even attempt it.

WB has the advantage over Marvel Studios in every department to create a far more epic-scaled film (the Big Three are the most iconic superheroes on the planet, and they own the rights to every character and their story arcs -- Blackest Night, Kingdom Come, Sinestro Corps War, New Gods, Infinite Crisis, etc) but the question is can WB stay dedicated to the project/vision and hire the right people for it?

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ĎBatman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:01 PM   #416
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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This is old news, but very relevant to many of the discussions we're having.

Christopher Nolan (who is pretty much the messiah of WB right now and behind the Batman and Superman properties) said this:

Nolan reiterated that you won't be seeing a Batman/Superman crossover in his movies. "Marvel are doing what they do and people will respond to that really well, or they won't," said Nolan. "It's not something I ever really applied a blanket rule to, but Marvel characters are very different to DC characters, and the key DC characters are very different to the minor DC characters. You've got to go back to that element of, 'What do I see when I close my eyes and think of Batman? What do I see when I close my eyes and think of Superman?' And for me a big part of that is their individuality. They are extraordinary beings in an ordinary world. And the reason I think the two are fascinating is because Superman is very specifically superpowered and obviously otherworldly; Batman is very human and flawed. They're two very different characters, but there's an elemental feeling of power in the iconography of those characters. To me that's originally because they stood alone. I need to hang on to that in my imagining of them."

http://www.superherohype.com/news/ar...n-and-superman


His preference is for each DC character to exist seperately in their own universe, and he seems very adamant about this approach.


After the failure of Green Lantern to launch a DC shared film universe, would you be content with Chris Nolan's approach to Batman and Superman?

With Nolan as producer, there will be no "World's Finest."

Are the DC films forever destined to remain disconnected?
Nolan can now override the wb execs?????? Keep dreaming. That's his opinion and he'd do what ever WB instructs him to do or be replaced.

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Old 04-15-2012, 04:19 PM   #417
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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Nolan can now override the wb execs?????? Keep dreaming. That's his opinion and he'd do what ever WB instructs him to do or be replaced.
Actually WB wouldn't risk to anger Nolan. Both have a good relationship thus far. The JL: Mortal fiasco was just simply the case where the script writers referenced Nolan's universe without permission, and Nolan wasn't fond of it. He wants his universe to remain untouched. WB out of fear or respect (or both) agreed to rewrite the script but the Writer's Strike practically killed the project.

Nolan doesn't controll anything at WB but he definitely has leverage and some pull around the lot for his personal projects due to his contributions to the studio with BB, TDK and Inception.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ĎBatman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:04 PM   #418
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

They definitely look at Nolan as their next Eastwood type long term relationship.

I dont think WB is going to do anything that will have Nolan take his ideas somewhere else.

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Old 04-16-2012, 02:56 AM   #419
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Actually WB wouldn't risk to anger Nolan. Both have a good relationship thus far. The JL: Mortal fiasco was just simply the case where the script writers referenced Nolan's universe without permission, and Nolan wasn't fond of it. He wants his universe to remain untouched. WB out of fear or respect (or both) agreed to rewrite the script but the Writer's Strike practically killed the project.

Nolan doesn't controll anything at WB but he definitely has leverage and some pull around the lot for his personal projects due to his contributions to the studio with BB, TDK and Inception.
What? I think some of you guys are giving this man more power then he has in reality. If anyone thinks that WB is gonna sit back and either not use DC characters or keep them separate because Nolan thinks they should are once again dreaming. It's about money and share holders and I can tell you no exec is gonna place all eggs in the basket of one man. Nolan made a film that made a ton of cash, well so did the Wachowski's with the Matrix and where are they now? Yeah and I'm sure some would scream that Nolan is better then them and non of his films will never fail and blah, blah, blah but at the end of the day their are others who can deliver on the same level as Nolan if not better. I wasn't blown away by either of his Batman films, although he did a fine job those movies had their problems. I'm not hating on the man I'm just sick of the fan boys going on and on about him like he made the best comic films ever. Certainly not. I personally felt Iron Man, Thor, Spiderman and X2 was better then both of Nolan batman films but it's a matter of opinion and taste and not which film made the most cash.

Nolan is a decent director but he isn't the best and certainly not the only one out there that can make a blockbuster. Nolan doesn't even have the clout that Michael Bay or Cameron has. If either Cameron or Bay pitched an idea to WB about doing a JL movie with them at the helm it'll get done. No way in h.e.l.l do I believe they are gonna tell them no cause Nolan doesn't want DC characters used in this fashion. As if he had a hand in creating them, please. WB is gonna do what they want.

The problem with Warners is they still don't understand how to properly use their comic characters when translating them to the big scream. I bet it was studio interference and how they wanted the film done and trying to copy what Marvel is doing more then the creative team's fault for GL's failure.


Last edited by Nokio; 04-16-2012 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:09 AM   #420
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

The real problem is that nothing but Batman has worked. Jonah Hex? Abysmal failure. Green Lantern was a dud. Superman didn't take, so they're doing a reboot. Really, all they have is Batman.

Superman better work.

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Old 04-16-2012, 03:11 AM   #421
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

actually Superman did take...it made more than CA:FA...it cost too much

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Old 04-16-2012, 03:21 AM   #422
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actually Superman did take...it made more than CA:FA...it cost too much
Well I assume it didn't since they're rebooting it.

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Old 04-16-2012, 03:25 AM   #423
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Well I assume it didn't since they're rebooting it.
the series is being rebooted because the movie cost too much to make...and the lawsuit. If it had cost 125M to make we'd be seeing lots of sequels

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:44 AM   #424
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

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Alan Horn was the guy that gave his pitch the OK.


He was a smarter exec than Robinov has been since 2007.
He was at least more flexible, Robinov is just stubborn.

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Nolan can now override the wb execs?????? Keep dreaming. That's his opinion and he'd do what ever WB instructs him to do or be replaced.
Nolan right now is to DC movies (at least for Batman and Superman) what Bruce Timm is for animated DC universe.

They are clueless about how to proceed without him.

For a JLA movie WB needs some director with a broad vision, who can make WB execs agree with whatever he decides to do.

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Old 04-16-2012, 11:32 AM   #425
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Default Re: No Shared Universe for DC Films

Nolan is defintitely coaching the thing out. GL was the last movie under the old playbook so you better believe they have a decent plan in place.

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