March 2012 sales numbers...

[JewishHobbit]

I actually considered picking up the first issue of that and Ultimate X-Men but, if memory serves, they were both bagged and I didn't want to jump into them blind without a good skimming. Thus, I never bothered with them again.

[runawayboulder]

I think somebody mentioned in another thread that Quesada said there wouldn't be a 616/Ultimate crossover until they ran out of ideas. I guess he meant when sales go south because they're doing a Peter Parker/Miles Morales crossover.

[kguillou]

Honestly, on a whole, it seems like these comic numbers are getting lower and lower. I mean we have books like JL and Batman and Avengers vs X-men doing well, but it looks like the vast majority of books are in the 40-50k range and are slowly shrinking. Very few, if any, books are actually gaining readers. I'm very happy to see DC doing good and i'm glad AvX sold really well, but these numbers on a whole seem more and more depressing to me every month.

[runawayboulder]

It's overkill. One day soon the bottom will completely drop out and we'll be back to 1 Avengers book, 1 Spidey book and 1 X-Men book.

[JewishHobbit]

Marvel specifically is looking grim. In order to make really good sales they had to rely on an event and the first issue of a movie-like Avengers book (whose sales WILL drop). At least DC is able to maintain ongoing titles at good sales numbers, 10 of them above Marvel's best (Uncanny of late).

Honestly, if they don't change something soon Marvel's going to be in a whole lot of trouble.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by runawayboulder

It's overkill. One day soon the bottom will completely drop out and we'll be back to 1 Avengers book, 1 Spidey book and 1 X-Men book.

And THAT will be a freakin' glorious day. I don't necessarilly think that'll do a whole lot though without adjusting their prices. I think that's another problem they have. One of DC's guys got it right when he said the success of the New 52 was in part due to lower prices leading to more readers giving books a chance. Marvel refuses to embrace that so they aren't picking up new readers. With high prices they're just shedding readers and that's obviously the wrong direction... and yet... nothing changes.

[runawayboulder]

The double shipping and point one issues really needs to stop. Double shipping is ok for an event but they've been doing it constantly.

Marvel will never outright copy DC's model though. They'll wait, then try and sneak it in there when they think nobody will notice even though everybody will. Then Marvel will spin-doctor it and pretend like nothing happened.

[TheCorpulent1]

"DC's model" meaning a line-wide reboot and renumbering? That would really annoy me.

[runawayboulder]

I hope they don't either but I certainly wouldn't put it past them.

[JewishHobbit]

The double shippings... yeah, that's gotta stop. I am currently buying 11 Marvel titles. 9 of those are $4 an issue and 4 of those were/are being double shipped in April... and that's a light month for double shippings of late.

Let's do the math a moment. I try to stick around $100 a month on comics. I spend around $35 on DC a month and if not for how they've been handling themselves I'd have been happy giving the rest to Marvel. If those titles I listed above stayed at $3 and weren't double shipping that'd free up about $30 a month for more spending. Yeah, I could be spending that on 10 Marvel ongoings and helping their sales out. I could be trying out their new titles instead of letting them pass me by. I guarentee you that I'd still be consistently buying Venom, Avengers Academy, New Mutants, and X-Men and that STILL leaves 6 more titles that I'd be happy to pay them for. I'd probably be buying Hulk, Incredible Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Journey Into the Mystery, and Amazing Spider-Man.

And yet, my number is limited and I've become so embittered that instead of looking for new titles to try I'm constantly looking for jumping off points on Marvel. My next one will likely be Defenders and probably some Avenger titles once AvsX is done. Honestly, I can see myself down to just the X-titles again within the next year or two if nothing changes. That's not been the case since around 2003.

And in addition to that, look at DC. Before the New 52 I bought Batman Inc, Batman & Robin, and the 3 Green Lantern titles. So 5 books. I'm currently buying 8 books, am testing 2 others, will be picking up 2 more ongoings soon, and have others that I'm debating on testing soon.

All for simple 1 title per character and 1 dollar cheaper cover price.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

"DC's model" meaning a line-wide reboot and renumbering? That would really annoy me.

But that would be a fantastic jumping off point!

[kguillou]

Yeah they need to ease up on $3.99. That price point really really hurts. Plus it's not good for new readers. Avengers Assemble for example really really should have been a 2.99 book. I mean i get it, it's Brian Bendis and he's a name brand, but realistically and economically wouldn't it have been smarter to make the book cheap so the movie audience could easily get hooked in?

[THANOSRULES]

I don't need (or want) the reboot, but DC's giving some b-list guys books and thats cool. The variation is great.

Hey Mr. Terrific outsold Thor: Deviant Saga....enough with these spin off main title books and double ships. Thor Deviant Saga could have been a poignant New Warriors Mini that would have sold 20K.

There's been a lot of these lousy Iron Man and Cap spinoffs selling like 9k.

Plus DC is more real when it comes to being true to the comics roots its guys 'n gals in tights fighting villians like Darkseid. Its funner. Marvel is still kinda hung up on being Marvel Knights ish and giving everything a realistic movie friendly edge. At DC, I think the talent is more on par with comic guys making books for comic fans.

[JewishHobbit]

You know an approach I'd like to see them take. Instead of a relaunch, do a bit of a RETURN or whatever. Drop a lot of books down to 1 title per character and/or team. Then get a book out there for all these titles from the past with fan followings with the characters MOST related to those titles.

New Warriors
Generation X
New X-Men (students)
Champions
Heroes for Hire (with Luke, Danny, Misty, etc.)
Scarlet Spider (with Ben Reilly)
Captain Britian (in an Alan Moore way)
Thunderbolts
Exiles
Immortal Iron Fist

Things like that. Take the formulas that worked and made fans buy those books or characters and get back to that. See what still sticks and work with it. Alter and change as you can. If you can do all of that in a way that still shows progression then suddenly you have the opposite of a relaunch and they don't have to own up to copying DC.

Drop prices, make room for these books by trimming the fat, give what people who actually still buy the book what they ask for, and do it in a way that is new reader friendly while also appeasing old fans. Take what they recently did with Defenders and make it line-wide.

[kguillou]

Avengers vs X-men will be a real turning point here. the first issue sold 200k, but we'll have to see how steep the drop is next issue and what issue 12 ends up selling. If this does not do as well as marvel wants, there definitely WILL be desperate measures being taken.

[THANOSRULES]

I would really like to see :

New Warriors
Silver Surfer
Nova
GOTG
Ms.Marvel
Exiles
Some X book with Havok

[runawayboulder]

They should just take a Marvel comic from 1986-87, turn to the Bullpen Bulletins page and rip out the checklist for that month and there's your new title lineup.

[THANOSRULES]

Originally Posted by runawayboulder

They should just take a Marvel comic from 1986-87, turn to the Bullpen Bulletins page and rip out the checklist for that month and there's your new title lineup.

Ha good idea

[CaptainStacy]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

You know an approach I'd like to see them take. Instead of a relaunch, do a bit of a RETURN or whatever. Drop a lot of books down to 1 title per character and/or team. Then get a book out there for all these titles from the past with fan followings with the characters MOST related to those titles.

New Warriors
Generation X
New X-Men (students)
Champions
Heroes for Hire (with Luke, Danny, Misty, etc.)
Scarlet Spider (with Ben Reilly)
Captain Britian (in an Alan Moore way)
Thunderbolts
Exiles
Immortal Iron Fist

Things like that. Take the formulas that worked and made fans buy those books or characters and get back to that. See what still sticks and work with it. Alter and change as you can. If you can do all of that in a way that still shows progression then suddenly you have the opposite of a relaunch and they don't have to own up to copying DC.

Drop prices, make room for these books by trimming the fat, give what people who actually still buy the book what they ask for, and do it in a way that is new reader friendly while also appeasing old fans. Take what they recently did with Defenders and make it line-wide.

Good idea in theory, but i don't see the suits at Marvel taking a chance like that on stuff that's never had any real lasting impact for them. I mean, you could make the arguement that EVERYTHING at Marvel has been cancelled at least once, i guess, but i have a hunch Marvel currently is thinking "Avengers and X-Men", somehow grasping at the hope that recent popular movie tie ins for both those franchises will somehow translate to good comic sales as well.

Incidentally; i think i remember hearing that Marvel lost the rights to the Champions...

[THANOSRULES]

Originally Posted by CaptainStacy

Good idea in theory, but i don't see the suits at Marvel taking a chance like that on stuff that's never had any real lasting impact for them. I mean, you could make the arguement that EVERYTHING at Marvel has been cancelled at least once, i guess, but i have a hunch Marvel currently is thinking "Avengers and X-Men", somehow grasping at the hope that recent popular movie tie ins for both those franchises will somehow translate to good comic sales as well.

Incidentally; i think i remember hearing that Marvel lost the rights to the Champions...

I'm not sure I totally agree with everything your saying.

Marvel really has not seen a huge translation to sales to comic book movies, although i would argue there is a cumulative effect that will bear out in the long run.

Marvel has some history of books that were minor, fringe books, or new ideas, eventually hitting big sales after low sales or a serious slump.

Avengers in the 1990s was a modest seller, struggling at times.

No better Example than the X-men, who were basically canceled in 1970 and existed for 5 years as a reprint book. They are certainly a cash cow for marvel and a big lesson can be learned.

I think that translates into giving hope for books like New Warriors (which was a viable seller for years)

You can also say that many of Marvel's hottest sellers were spin offs and were based off bold ness in giving some heroes there own ongoings.

Marvel needs the outlet to expand it's market, and that happens with creative books where exploratory writing can happen. It needs Books like Presents and Team Up....these books will sell mediocre, but at some point they will produce guys like deadpool and catch on. Even the big guns appeared in books like this , "tales of suspense" , "Amazing Fantasy" etc...It's basically how marvel was forged and they've forgot about it.

Marvel should be doing this MORE because of the movies, as while movie profits are hard to track, they are going to be making a killing off the flicks and all the trimmings, they have money to take losses on some books with the long term promise that some of them will catch and become popular.

The movies give them the backing to be more patient with comic series.

[CConn]

I really don't think Marvel is doing that much wrong. They have a good group of solid quality books, and there really isn't much need for a universe spanning reboot in any way, for any real reason.

They could probably stand to clean up their line a bit...trim off some of the "fat"; low selling, monotonous books, etc.

I really wonder though, if what's really keeping DC so entrenched in the Top 10 is the price of their books. I would think a single 2.99 book would be a lot more appealing to a lot of readers than 3.99 double shipping every month.

I also wonder if the simplicity of DC's current editorial direction is helping their books too. I mean, there's no tie ins, few crossovers, and you know you don't have to have much previous reading to jump into Batman or Animal Man, etc. Plus, most of their books have a greater level of "importance" ; I mean, in a sense, what's the point of buying Avengers or New Avengers when you're already buying AvX? Or what's the point of buying X-Men, if you're already buying Uncanny and WatXM? With DC, there's less alternatives for their main character, so each book feels like it really matters.

I dunno, those are just my guesses. Maybe it's more one than the other, or maybe it's a mixture of it all combined.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by CConn

I really don't think Marvel is doing that much wrong. They have a good group of solid quality books, and there really isn't much need for a universe spanning reboot in any way, for any real reason.

They could probably stand to clean up their line a bit...trim off some of the "fat"; low selling, monotonous books, etc.

I really wonder though, if what's really keeping DC so entrenched in the Top 10 is the price of their books. I would think a single 2.99 book would be a lot more appealing to a lot of readers than 3.99 double shipping every month.

I also wonder if the simplicity of DC's current editorial direction is helping their books too. I mean, there's no tie ins, few crossovers, and you know you don't have to have much previous reading to jump into Batman or Animal Man, etc. Plus, most of their books have a greater level of "importance" ; I mean, in a sense, what's the point of buying Avengers or New Avengers when you're already buying AvX? Or what's the point of buying X-Men, if you're already buying Uncanny and WatXM? With DC, there's less alternatives for their main character, so each book feels like it really matters.

I dunno, those are just my guesses. Maybe it's more one than the other, or maybe it's a mixture of it all combined.

I think you hit the nail on the head to be honest. With the exception of Batman, if I'm interested in a character or team I go buy that book, and everyone interested in that character or team are buying that book. Even books that are linked, like Superboy, Superman, and Supergirl, are able to be read separately without too much worry of one impacting the other. Even their crossovers are small 2 and 3 part stories and then it's back to how it was. And at the prices they're selling for it makes it a lot easier to test more books and see what you like.

Marvel fails to see the benefit in this apparently. Heck, someoen asked at this weekend's con about oversaturation and the reply was something along the lines of they didn't think it was a problem and will continue to do it. I even had to laugh when Quesada said something along the lines of how fans are pickier with their money these days when it comes to comics.... WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS JOE?!!! Good lord! It's like they're oblivious to these things. I hope DC keeps beating the tar out of that top ten and keeps expanding it, and I hope AvsX sinks as it goes and DC keeps winning the tops spots.

[CConn]

I know it doesn't mean anything, but I honestly respect the Marvel execs less than any comic book company's leadership team. I mean, when you have EVERY other comic company lowering the price of their digital comics to $1.99 after a month, and Marvel's still trying to push comics from last year and older for $3.99 still, it just shows they have an absolute lack of respect or even care for their fans. It's a dick move.

[Havok83]

Originally Posted by CConn

I also wonder if the simplicity of DC's current editorial direction is helping their books too. I mean, there's no tie ins, few crossovers, and you know you don't have to have much previous reading to jump into Batman or Animal Man, etc. Plus, most of their books have a greater level of "importance" ; I mean, in a sense, what's the point of buying Avengers or New Avengers when you're already buying AvX? Or what's the point of buying X-Men, if you're already buying Uncanny and WatXM? With DC, there's less alternatives for their main character, so each book feels like it really matters.

I dunno, those are just my guesses. Maybe it's more one than the other, or maybe it's a mixture of it all combined.

IA with this. There are WAY too many books with the name X-men or Avengers in the title. For each there's like 2 thats worth reading and the rest feels rather redundant or irrelevant