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Old 05-03-2012, 01:13 AM   #51
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I'd say a key problem (and it was a bad movie all around) was the rather ridiculous Jean Wolverine love "thing".

Let's review, shall we? In X-Men Wolverine meets Jean when he first comes to the institute. He briefly talks to her. And after that, they don't interact much if any, at least not in any significant way, until near the end. One scene. Then he leaves. He doesn't return until the beginning of the next movie. He sees a glimpse of her. They don't interact until right before the climax of the movie, which is implied to be very brief. And then she... "dies". The next time they meet, oh yeah, they're doomed lovers.

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Old 05-03-2012, 01:16 AM   #52
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I would say the love "thing" is the least of the movie's problems and is hardly something limited to The Last Stand, or the movies for that matter.

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Old 05-03-2012, 07:23 AM   #53
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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THE LAST STAND gets a bad rap because fans hated the fact that the comics weren't put onscreen (which had never happened in the X-Men films, and was never going to happen in that franchise), and because they don't understand film demands/issues like, oh, say, LOSING your Cyclops to SUPERMAN RETURNS. Wolverine starred because he'd been the star since X-MEN. Fans seem to think that if Bryan Singer had stuck around, Cyclops would have been one of the main characters, and we'd have gotten a more faithful Dark Phoenix story, and that somehow X3 would have undone the flaws of the previous two films. There were some legitimate suggestions that Brett Ratner isn't as talented a director in terms of actually shooting the film, but he handled the action, emotion, themes and performances quite well
Could be that, or it could be a weak, rushed film. I don't hate it like some do, but it's obviously inferior to the previous 2 films.

The action is nice, but emotional underpinnings throughout are underwhelming and half baked. Angel exists in a couple of scenes and is ultimately irrelevent to the plot. Rogue's decision to take the cure is totally squashed by her jealousy of Iceman and Kitty, and what should be a serious life choice comes off as being about "some boy". Halle Berry is terrible. Logan's story is incredibly dry, assuming a dull hero role. Any motivation for Pyro's anger is glossed over and he's just an ass who now hates Iceman. The death of Cyclops is simply lost in the shuffle. Xavier's death gets a little more attention but is undermined by the fact that he nothing of note prior to it (aside from cussing out Logan in a very out of character moment).

I really liked Grammar as Beast. He's probably handled the best.

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Old 05-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #54
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I really feel that this movie should have been at least 2 hours long like (2 hours and 20 minutes).

1hr/44 mins was just too short especially with how big the cast was. More scenes of Angel with the X-Men, a kissing scene with Rogue/Iceman when Rogue came back after taking the cure, a character development for Colossus and a less emotional Storm would make the film so much better.

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Old 05-03-2012, 10:08 AM   #55
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

After X2's length, the running time is a clear issue the film had. I blame that on the script more than Ratner. Ratner shot the script they had.

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I'd say a key problem (and it was a bad movie all around) was the rather ridiculous Jean Wolverine love "thing".

Let's review, shall we? In X-Men Wolverine meets Jean when he first comes to the institute. He briefly talks to her. And after that, they don't interact much if any, at least not in any significant way, until near the end. One scene. Then he leaves. He doesn't return until the beginning of the next movie. He sees a glimpse of her. They don't interact until right before the climax of the movie, which is implied to be very brief. And then she... "dies". The next time they meet, oh yeah, they're doomed lovers.
Wolverine is first attracted to, and later has deeper feelings for Jean.

She doesn't love him in return. This is made clear in X2. She is attracted to him, as she was in the comics. This is made clear as well.

When she gets busy with him in X3, it is Dark Phoenix taking over.

There is never a doomed lovers triangle, only Wolverine being forced to kill the woman he loves to save everyone.

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Could be that, or it could be a weak, rushed film. I don't hate it like some do, but it's obviously inferior to the previous 2 films.
Except that it's not. Not in any measurable sense. It's shot differently. The acting is on the same level. The writing is on a similar level, with a bit more comic book flair, and a few corny lines/moments, which all the movies had. But the writing also has more character development, varied exploration of key themes and comic book mythos in it than previous films did.

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The action is nice, but emotional underpinnings throughout are underwhelming and half baked. Angel exists in a couple of scenes and is ultimately irrelevent to the plot. Rogue's decision to take the cure is totally squashed by her jealousy of Iceman and Kitty, and what should be a serious life choice comes off as being about "some boy". Halle Berry is terrible. Logan's story is incredibly dry, assuming a dull hero role. Any motivation for Pyro's anger is glossed over and he's just an ass who now hates Iceman. The death of Cyclops is simply lost in the shuffle. Xavier's death gets a little more attention but is undermined by the fact that he nothing of note prior to it (aside from cussing out Logan in a very out of character moment).
The emotions being underwhelming is your opinion. Half baked is your opinion. They're not any more or less underwhelming or half-baked than the previous movies. The emotional elements are structurally and contentwise handled as well, or better, than the previous films did. The only emotional aspect of the film that is not handled as well is the team's reaction to Cyclops' death. And given the circumstances, not pausing for a funeral is understandable. We do, however, get to see Jean's reaction to Cyclops death, and its an appropriately emotional and powerful one. The death of Cyclops is not neccessarily los i n the shuffle so much as it is one of the major events in the film. They don't return to it a lot, but they do acknowledge it, and the impact of it, several times.

Halle Berry isn't terrible. For once. She's actually better than she was in either of the two previous films. She should probably never have been Storm in the first place, but she's at her best in the franchise in X3.

Angel exists in a few scenes, much the way Bobby and Pyro existed in a few scenes in X2. Angel is most certainly not irrelevant to the plot. He is a shining example of a mutant who might want the cure, and chooses not to take it.

I don't know how you can call Logan's role "dull". He goes around killing people, just like he always does. He does some tracking. He has several meatier dialogue scenes, including a nice sequence with Rogue. He's got emotional sequences...and he has a very cool action/healing sequence toward the end of the film. Dull? Really?

Pyro's anger was only ever about jealousy and Magneto telling him he can be more than humans in X2. A sense of superiority. That is all still very present in X3. And he was always an ass. Right from the start.

Xavier's death is one of the best comic book movie sequences ever. It gets more than a "little more attention". And he does have sequences of note prior to it. He has a teaching sequence, the moment with Storm, the scene with Wolverine about Jean, the sequence between himself, Jean and Eric. And Xavier never cusses out Logan...what the heck are you talking about? Xavier manipulating people is not out of character in the least. He's done it for two films. It is simply revealed that this is what happened with Jean, and that his tactics are on a while other level. It was, to most fans, a welcome addition to the film universe.

Why do you even bother to list "problems" with the film if they're, as you stated earlier, halfbaked?

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Old 05-03-2012, 10:27 AM   #56
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Yeah Xavier's was nicely executed even though it felt a little too early. I tried not to tear up when I was watching that scene for the first time.

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Old 05-03-2012, 10:39 AM   #57
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It has the same problems of the other two while being more comicbooky and soulless.

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #58
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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Except that it's not. Not in any measurable sense. It's shot differently. The acting is on the same level. The writing is on a similar level, with a bit more comic book flair, and a few corny lines/moments, which all the movies had. But the writing also has more character development, varied exploration of key themes and comic book mythos in it than previous films did.



The emotions being underwhelming is your opinion. Half baked is your opinion. They're not any more or less underwhelming or half-baked than the previous movies. The emotional elements are structurally and contentwise handled as well, or better, than the previous films did. The only emotional aspect of the film that is not handled as well is the team's reaction to Cyclops' death. And given the circumstances, not pausing for a funeral is understandable. We do, however, get to see Jean's reaction to Cyclops death, and its an appropriately emotional and powerful one. The death of Cyclops is not neccessarily los i n the shuffle so much as it is one of the major events in the film. They don't return to it a lot, but they do acknowledge it, and the impact of it, several times.

Halle Berry isn't terrible. For once. She's actually better than she was in either of the two previous films. She should probably never have been Storm in the first place, but she's at her best in the franchise in X3.

Angel exists in a few scenes, much the way Bobby and Pyro existed in a few scenes in X2. Angel is most certainly not irrelevant to the plot. He is a shining example of a mutant who might want the cure, and chooses not to take it.

I don't know how you can call Logan's role "dull". He goes around killing people, just like he always does. He does some tracking. He has several meatier dialogue scenes, including a nice sequence with Rogue. He's got emotional sequences...and he has a very cool action/healing sequence toward the end of the film. Dull? Really?

Pyro's anger was only ever about jealousy and Magneto telling him he can be more than humans in X2. A sense of superiority. That is all still very present in X3. And he was always an ass. Right from the start.

Xavier's death is one of the best comic book movie sequences ever. It gets more than a "little more attention". And he does have sequences of note prior to it. He has a teaching sequence, the moment with Storm, the scene with Wolverine about Jean, the sequence between himself, Jean and Eric. And Xavier never cusses out Logan...what the heck are you talking about? Xavier manipulating people is not out of character in the least. He's done it for two films. It is simply revealed that this is what happened with Jean, and that his tactics are on a while other level. It was, to most fans, a welcome addition to the film universe.

Why do you even bother to list "problems" with the film if they're, as you stated earlier, halfbaked?
The closest you can get to a measurable sense of quality is critical reviews, which agree with me. Obviously it's my opinion, no need to repeatedly state it.

Berry is worse than ever. Storm's conversations with Senator Kelly and Nightcrawler in the first two films are far more significant to her character than anything in TLS, despite an increased screen time. She's a little more proactive in this, but Berry doesn't pull off authority at all. She also comes off as incredibly heartless when she's telling Logan that Jean needs to die. Did the writers forget that Storm and Jean have been friends for god knows how long? No conflict in her whatsoever.

What Angel gets in the film is fine, except that he has no character to speak of. He exists solely as a POV on the cure, not as an interesting personality. The cure debate is entirely superficial, which is a shame as there is so much potential for interesting character interaction. Put Angel and Rogue together in a scene and see where it goes.

I don't treat Logan's arc as a tick-box of ability displays. That's why I don't like this film. His relationship with Jean is incredibly flat. He may feel strongly for her, but as you've said it's one way. This love story is missing a key player, the man Jean actually loves.
As for what we actually got, Logan's arc is a retread of his conflict in X2 only less good. At the end of X2, he has chosen to throw in with the X-Men, and be a part of the group. Apparent the writers forgot about that, as TLS opens with him "just passing through". Later in the film, he ditches the team to be with Jean, gets his ass handed to him, then returns to give a big speech about being a team. Pathetic.

Pyro's resentment of Ice-Man is intense and under-explored. We know more about that character from a simple glance in X2, when he looks at Bobby's family. He's not out of character in TLS, he barely is a character. This doesn't bother me too much, but there was certainly more potential there.

Xavier's death is all flash, no substance. As I said previously, it's undermined by the scene previously that made him look like an ass. Xavier is supposed to be a great man, but he's not shown to be here.
What are we supposed to feel when he dies? Making his actions with Jean so morally ambiguous complicates the death scene, because it's not clear if this should be a tragic event or the consequence of meddling. This tension could be great, but it's not followed up on at all.

Why criticise something for being half-baked? Why not?

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Old 05-03-2012, 03:28 PM   #59
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Poor treatment of characters and plots established in the comics.
Poor treatment of characters and plots established in the film series
This is basically exactly how I feel every-time I watch the film. The movie just wasn't good.

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Old 05-04-2012, 07:14 PM   #60
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FNSpidey is talking about X2.
Jersus, my bad. Then he's absolutely right.

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Old 05-06-2012, 01:03 PM   #61
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Berry is worse than ever. Storm's conversations with Senator Kelly and Nightcrawler in the first two films are far more significant to her character than anything in TLS, despite an increased screen time.
I cannot agree with you.

Berry's conversations in X-MEN and X2 are relevant to the core themes of X-MEN, not neccessarily Storm herself. They're single scenes that are then never addressed again. And Berry didn't play them all that well. Davidson and Cumming did, but Berry is just kind of there, doing her best. She did better in X3.

In THE LAST STAND:
Storm has her POV about the cure
Storm has her leadership aspect
She has her interactions with Wolverine
She takes over as a teacher
She has more varied power usage

She's not anything approaching good in her performance in X3. But she gives a better, more nuanced performance in X3, and displays more emotional range than she did in either previous film.

While it would have been nice to have seen some conflict over killing Jean, we never saw Storm and Jean as very good friends in the series. Berry was aware that this wasn't the Jean they all knew. Cyclops and Xavier had been killed. The stakes were high. And the scene was more about making Wolverine aware of his role in things than her own emotions. Actually, there's an undercurrent of her holding her emotions in check as the film wears on, VS the opening scene, where's she's causing storms.

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What Angel gets in the film is fine, except that he has no character to speak of. He exists solely as a POV on the cure, not as an interesting personality. The cure debate is entirely superficial, which is a shame as there is so much potential for interesting character interaction. Put Angel and Rogue together in a scene and see where it goes.
And I agree with you, but its the same type of issue we saw with Iceman/Pyro in X2. Their issues serve to flesh out the core themes, not neccessarily interesting character elements. This is a weakness of the franchise's use of supporting characters, not X3 alone.

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I don't treat Logan's arc as a tick-box of ability displays. That's why I don't like this film. His relationship with Jean is incredibly flat. He may feel strongly for her, but as you've said it's one way. This love story is missing a key player, the man Jean actually loves.

As for what we actually got, Logan's arc is a retread of his conflict in X2 only less good. At the end of X2, he has chosen to throw in with the X-Men, and be a part of the group. Apparent the writers forgot about that, as TLS opens with him "just passing through".
The "relationship" wasn't excellently handled in either previous film, either. Its actually got more to it in X3, aside from Logan recognizing Jean didn't want him more than she loved Cyclops. Again, I'm not saying it's great, but it's not an issue that solely X3 had.

I don't treat his arc as a tick box of ability displays either. Logan has a very clear arc in X3, an extension and development of his story from X-MEN and X3. He is starting to become much less concerned with himself, as evidenced by the way he takes over mentoring some of the younger X-Men, and the way he goes after Jean. It's not Wolverine's story as much as X-MEN and X2 were, though he is still arguably the main character.

The love story is missing a key player? Then perhaps it's not a love story. Not in the conventional sense.

No...they didn't forget about him saying he's just passing through...they developed him to the point where he decides to stick around. That's his arc.

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Pyro's resentment of Ice-Man is intense and under-explored. We know more about that character from a simple glance in X2, when he looks at Bobby's family. He's not out of character in TLS, he barely is a character. This doesn't bother me too much, but there was certainly more potential there.
In X2, we learn that Pyro is jealous of Bobby and his family in X2, and that he recognizes how far above humans he can be. He takes steps, when he attacks the cops.

That is expanded on in X3. He's looking to belong, he resents people who fear/would cure mutants, and he joins the Brotherhood and becomes a terrorist. I'm not saying it's a great character arc, but it's every bit as well handled as what was found in X2. A glance at a picture does not a compelling character/arc make.

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Xavier's death is all flash, no substance.
I'm not sure why'd you'd think that. There's a very clear conflict there, not just between he and Eric, who have ideological differences, but between he, Jean, and The Dark Phoenix. He held Jean back, he recognizes the threat she's become, and he does his best to stop her

It's a death, but it's also the culmination of his character arc, and his greatest failure. What "substance" are you looking for that wasn't there? The death had an obvious impact, on multiple levels, for multiple characters.

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As I said previously, it's undermined by the scene previously that made him look like an ass. Xavier is supposed to be a great man, but he's not shown to be here.
I don't think he looked like an ass. That seems to be your assessment. I think he made a judgement call. It was perhaps the wrong one, as the film shows.

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What are we supposed to feel when he dies? Making his actions with Jean so morally ambiguous complicates the death scene, because it's not clear if this should be a tragic event or the consequence of meddling. This tension could be great, but it's not followed up on at all.
What do you mean what are you supposed to feel when he dies? It's an intense scene. Horror. Some sympathy for Xavier. Pride. Whatever you feel when people give their all and die.

It's BOTH a tragic event AND the consequence of meddling. Tragic, because of his role in forming and guiding the X-Men, and the loss of his leadership, and obviously the result of something he perhaps should not have done.

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Old 05-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #62
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I cannot agree with you.

Berry's conversations in X-MEN and X2 are relevant to the core themes of X-MEN, not neccessarily Storm herself. They're single scenes that are then never addressed again. And Berry didn't play them all that well. Davidson and Cumming did, but Berry is just kind of there, doing her best. She did better in X3.

In THE LAST STAND:
Storm has her POV about the cure
Storm has her leadership aspect
She has her interactions with Wolverine
She takes over as a teacher
She has more varied power usage

She's not anything approaching good in her performance in X3. But she gives a better, more nuanced performance in X3, and displays more emotional range than she did in either previous film.
There's not a lot I can say tbh. She's just terrible in this film. I can think of 3 seperate instances where a scene ends on one of her lines and they're all total bum notes. When she first hears about the cure and ends the scene with her little speech to Rogue, when she tells Logan that he needs to "be with us", and when everyone boards the X-Jet and she asks Logan if he's "ready to do what he needs to when the time comes". She's just plain horrible.

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While it would have been nice to have seen some conflict over killing Jean, we never saw Storm and Jean as very good friends in the series. Berry was aware that this wasn't the Jean they all knew. Cyclops and Xavier had been killed. The stakes were high. And the scene was more about making Wolverine aware of his role in things than her own emotions. Actually, there's an undercurrent of her holding her emotions in check as the film wears on, VS the opening scene, where's she's causing storms.
Jean and Storm seemed pretty close in X2, at least to me... Just the slightest bit of conflict would have been nice. Even just a a line to identify how/why Storm can tell so definitively that Jean is gone (especially as we the audience are shown that she is still in there).


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And I agree with you, but its the same type of issue we saw with Iceman/Pyro in X2. Their issues serve to flesh out the core themes, not neccessarily interesting character elements. This is a weakness of the franchise's use of supporting characters, not X3 alone.
Tu Quoque, but I still don't agree. I can tell from X2 that Ice-man is a nice guy with a sense of humour, he's not particularly aggressive and enjoys playing around, including with his power. He's well adjusted, but has a slightly passive aggressive relationship with Wolverine over Rogue's affection.
Pyro is a bit of an ass. He's angry, likes to tease people and reacts viloently when his power is questioned. He is easily seduced by Magneto because feeling superior is very appealing to him.

Angel is very different. He doesn't really interact with anyone, and so we're never given anything about what he's like as a person. We can tell he was ashamed of his mutation as a kid, doesn't agree with the cure later on; yet we don't even know why he runs away. Huge disappointment, and a total waste of a good idea. For all we know, Angel refued the treatment cause he was scared of needles.


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The "relationship" wasn't excellently handled in either previous film, either. Its actually got more to it in X3, aside from Logan recognizing Jean didn't want him more than she loved Cyclops. Again, I'm not saying it's great, but it's not an issue that solely X3 had.
Tu Quoque again, and again, I don't agree. There wasn't a whole lot to Logan and Jean in X1 & X2, but it wasn't used to anchor those films so it doesn't matter.


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I don't treat his arc as a tick box of ability displays either. Logan has a very clear arc in X3, an extension and development of his story from X-MEN and X3. He is starting to become much less concerned with himself, as evidenced by the way he takes over mentoring some of the younger X-Men, and the way he goes after Jean. It's not Wolverine's story as much as X-MEN and X2 were, though he is still arguably the main character.

No...they didn't forget about him saying he's just passing through...they developed him to the point where he decides to stick around. That's his arc.
It's not an extension of his previous arc, it's a retread. The film purposely starts with him being reluctant and distant, to the extent that he doesn't even seem to be staying there for any extend period of time. That doesn't mesh with X2 where his arc culminated in choosing the Xmen. I think it's bad writing to reset that, especially when he moves no further beyond that point. TLS ends, and he's chosen to be an X-Man... just like the last film.

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The love story is missing a key player? Then perhaps it's not a love story. Not in the conventional sense.
Well it sure does play out like an every day love tradegy. Jean may not love Logan, but her role in the film isn't large enough to actually incorporate what she feels. The film we do get is about a man who has to kill his lover. It's no more complicated than that, even it if evidently should be.



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In X2, we learn that Pyro is jealous of Bobby and his family in X2, and that he recognizes how far above humans he can be. He takes steps, when he attacks the cops.

That is expanded on in X3. He's looking to belong, he resents people who fear/would cure mutants, and he joins the Brotherhood and becomes a terrorist. I'm not saying it's a great character arc, but it's every bit as well handled as what was found in X2. A glance at a picture does not a compelling character/arc make.
That glance in X2 doesn't make an arc, but it tells us a lot more about Pyro than we learn in the next film. As for the arc, that is covered by the choice he makes at the end of the film, to abandon his firends and join Magneto.

He doesn't do anything in TLS. He starts on the path he joined in X2, and the film ends with him exactly the same, albeit unconscious/dead.

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I'm not sure why'd you'd think that. There's a very clear conflict there, not just between he and Eric, who have ideological differences, but between he, Jean, and The Dark Phoenix. He held Jean back, he recognizes the threat she's become, and he does his best to stop her

It's a death, but it's also the culmination of his character arc, and his greatest failure. What "substance" are you looking for that wasn't there? The death had an obvious impact, on multiple levels, for multiple characters.
I like how the X/Jean/Magneto dynamic is presented from the different times in her life, but there's little pay-off from the second time around. Magneto is great, goading her and manipulating her, but there's very little consequence to his actions. He got Charles killed, and while there is a nice moment later on that shows what Charles meant Mags, he goes on with his plan a little too easily after seeing just how dangerous Jean is.
Jean on the other hand is just damn unreliable. Famke acts her ass off in this film, but the inside of Jean's head is a bag of cats. Charles' last words to her are "don't let it control you", and we sadly don't see very much in the way of internal conflict until her very last scene where she has Logan kill her.
Finally, Charles fails to contain Jean and dies. Boom, heartbreaking. Not enough emotional weight, we didn't see how much Jean meant to him, how much he meant to Jean. How important Scott was to either of them. This should be the very foundation of the team being uprooted here, but as I have said previously, it just isn't sure if this should be tragic or kind of ironic.

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I don't think he looked like an ass. That seems to be your assessment. I think he made a judgement call. It was perhaps the wrong one, as the film shows.

What do you mean what are you supposed to feel when he dies? It's an intense scene. Horror. Some sympathy for Xavier. Pride. Whatever you feel when people give their all and die.

It's BOTH a tragic event AND the consequence of meddling. Tragic, because of his role in forming and guiding the X-Men, and the loss of his leadership, and obviously the result of something he perhaps should not have done.


What he did to Jean isn't what I'm refering to (although we are shown painfully little of why he made his choice. Jean seemed pretty stable in the flashback), what I'm refereing to is how he cusses out Logan for questioning his decision. It's totally out of character, and not only diminishes the wisdom and likability of Xavier, but it makes his decision to go inside of Jean's head questionable because he apparently struggles to defend it. I can buy that Xavier is the kind of guy smart enough to make a "terrible choice", because he's smart and compassionate. *****ing out and getting defensive undermines that completely.

In a film so brief, you really don't want this being the most memorable thing a character does before he dies.

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Old 05-07-2012, 09:51 AM   #63
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There's not a lot I can say tbh. She's just terrible in this film. I can think of 3 seperate instances where a scene ends on one of her lines and they're all total bum notes. When she first hears about the cure and ends the scene with her little speech to Rogue, when she tells Logan that he needs to "be with us", and when everyone boards the X-Jet and she asks Logan if he's "ready to do what he needs to when the time comes". She's just plain horrible.
She's no better or worse than she is in the previous movies. As I recall, most critics and fans didn't believe she was horrible, either. It doesn't matter, really. It's your opinion. You're welcome to it.

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Jean and Storm seemed pretty close in X2, at least to me... Just the slightest bit of conflict would have been nice. Even just a a line to identify how/why Storm can tell so definitively that Jean is gone (especially as we the audience are shown that she is still in there).
In that they worked together? Certainly not the "close" that they were in the comics. Not sure what you're basing this on.

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Tu Quoque, but I still don't agree. I can tell from X2 that Ice-man is a nice guy with a sense of humour, he's not particularly aggressive and enjoys playing around, including with his power. He's well adjusted, but has a slightly passive aggressive relationship with Wolverine over Rogue's affection.
Pyro is a bit of an ass. He's angry, likes to tease people and reacts viloently when his power is questioned. He is easily seduced by Magneto because feeling superior is very appealing to him.

Angel is very different. He doesn't really interact with anyone, and so we're never given anything about what he's like as a person. We can tell he was ashamed of his mutation as a kid, doesn't agree with the cure later on; yet we don't even know why he runs away. Huge disappointment, and a total waste of a good idea. For all we know, Angel refued the treatment cause he was scared of needles.

First, Pyro is shown to be anything but "well adjusted' in X2.

I'd rather have exploration of a character and their conflicts and choices than learn random facts about a character's past. Any day.

You can learn things about Angel, too, in the few scenes he's in. He obviously wants to please his father, and is a bit shy, or rather, repressed. He's probably not had an easy home life, because his father is obviously ashamed of his mutantcy. He is frightened and reluctant to undergo the cure, and is ultimately angry that its being forced upon him. He reacts somewhat violently when restrained (huh, look at that). He values his differences, yet forgives his father for his bigotry, and rescues him in the end. He also values the idea of the X-Men, as he clearly needs refuge later in the movie.

If you don't know why Angel runs away...yeesh. Its blatantly obvious. He's embracing his mutant gifts and fleeing his father's repression. He wants to be free, not kept under wraps. Its apparent visually and storywise.

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Tu Quoque again, and again, I don't agree. There wasn't a whole lot to Logan and Jean in X1 & X2, but it wasn't used to anchor those films so it doesn't matter.
You don't agree with what? That the romantic aspects in previous films weren't well handled?

So now because it wasn't used to anchor those two films, it doesn't matter?

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It's not an extension of his previous arc, it's a retread. The film purposely starts with him being reluctant and distant, to the extent that he doesn't even seem to be staying there for any extend period of time. That doesn't mesh with X2 where his arc culminated in choosing the Xmen. I think it's bad writing to reset that, especially when he moves no further beyond that point. TLS ends, and he's chosen to be an X-Man... just like the last film.
No...it's not a retread of his previous arc.

Wolverine's arc in X2 was mostly about finding out who he was and coming to terms with it. If you'll recall, Wolverine chose to be an X-Man in X-MEN as well. The whole loner VS X-Men thing was secondary to his main storyline, and is, in fact, a theme that has run through all three films. The point of his arc in X2 is that he learned and admitted he had a violent past, but chose not to become what Stryker wanted him to, deciding to try to find his answers with the X-Men. He was beginning to grow into a key member of the team in X2, just as he started to do in X-MEN.

In X3 he took this further, building on the lessons of X2. It's not a "retread", because it explored different elements of his membership of the team and of his life, namely taking he took part in training, had a hand in mentoring the younger X-Men, and became a leader, which he was not in X2, where he barely wanted to be part of the team's actions unless it served his ends. It's an evolving character arc.

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Well it sure does play out like an every day love tradegy. Jean may not love Logan, but her role in the film isn't large enough to actually incorporate what she feels. The film we do get is about a man who has to kill his lover. It's no more complicated than that, even it if evidently should be.
I'm not sure what "everyday love tragedy" even means.

It's made very clear what Jean feels in X2, and its made obvious in X3 that the Phoenix feels lust for Logan, but that she's messing with him, and that this is not the real Jean. There's no love going on between them. Wolverine loves her, but she does not return it.

He doesn't "have to kill his lover", because they are not lovers. He has to kill the woman he loves. That doesn't make it anything resembling a typical love story.

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That glance in X2 doesn't make an arc, but it tells us a lot more about Pyro than we learn in the next film. As for the arc, that is covered by the choice he makes at the end of the film, to abandon his firends and join Magneto.
He doesn't do anything in TLS. He starts on the path he joined in X2, and the film ends with him exactly the same, albeit unconscious/dead.

He absolutely does do something in THE LAST STAND. Since he, at the end of X, joined Magneto, now his role is evolving.

He has essentially become Magneto's bodyguard, and stands up for him in the mutant meeting. He wants to "belong" so much that he states he would have killed the professor had he been asked. But he's all talk. However, he goes from merely being verbal about his support for the Brotherhood's goals, to actively taking part in terrorist activities. By the end of the film, he's progressed from being derogatory about those who want to take the cure, and merely taunting Bobby, and is ultimately willing to kill his former friend, as well as his former teammates. This is an evolution of character, and stuff about him we certainly didn't know in X2.

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I like how the X/Jean/Magneto dynamic is presented from the different times in her life, but there's little pay-off from the second time around. Magneto is great, goading her and manipulating her, but there's very little consequence to his actions. He got Charles killed, and while there is a nice moment later on that shows what Charles meant Mags, he goes on with his plan a little too easily after seeing just how dangerous Jean is.
"Easily" is relative, and that's kind of the point. She's dormant as long as he doesn't want to diminish her, though she threatens him at one point.

As far as "little consequence to his actions", there's a very, very clear moment in the movie when Magneto realizes he has tampered with powers he couldn't control.

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Jean on the other hand is just damn unreliable. Famke acts her ass off in this film, but the inside of Jean's head is a bag of cats. Charles' last words to her are "don't let it control you", and we sadly don't see very much in the way of internal conflict until her very last scene where she has Logan kill her.
There is very obvious external/internal conflict when she wakes with Logan.

There is also conflict at the end of the film when she's trying to kill Logan. Dark Phoenix is every bit as well handled as Jean's Phoenix abilities in X2 were, and actually a lot better, and more fully fleshed out. The issue is developed, and she evolves as a character.

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Finally, Charles fails to contain Jean and dies. Boom, heartbreaking. Not enough emotional weight, we didn't see how much Jean meant to him, how much he meant to Jean.
That's nonsense. We see plenty about how much Jean means to Charles. The whole point of the scene is that he wants to help her. He even asks Eric to avoid interfering because she is not well. He is willing to die for her in order to help her, to battle the Dark Phoenix. His last words are "Don't let it control you", which obviously points to him caring about her.

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What he did to Jean isn't what I'm refering to (although we are shown painfully little of why he made his choice. Jean seemed pretty stable in the flashback), what I'm refereing to is how he cusses out Logan for questioning his decision. It's totally out of character, and not only diminishes the wisdom and likability of Xavier, but it makes his decision to go inside of Jean's head questionable because he apparently struggles to defend it. I can buy that Xavier is the kind of guy smart enough to make a "terrible choice", because he's smart and compassionate. *****ing out and getting defensive undermines that completely.
He doesn't cuss out Logan. He says "I don't have to explain myself. Least of all to you". It's not out of character, it's just not an aspect of Xavier we had seen prior to that scene. Read a comic book. Xavier is allowed to be stressed out, and occassionally rude.

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In a film so brief, you really don't want this being the most memorable thing a character does before he dies.
It wasn't.

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Old 05-07-2012, 12:29 PM   #64
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The Guard, I absolutely love reading your posts. I've never understood the hate x3 gets from many fans. I love watching this movie. And I'm a cyclops fan to boot.

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Old 05-07-2012, 02:57 PM   #65
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She's no better or worse than she is in the previous movies. As I recall, most critics and fans didn't believe she was horrible, either. It doesn't matter, really. It's your opinion. You're welcome to it.
Indeed.

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In that they worked together? Certainly not the "close" that they were in the comics. Not sure what you're basing this on.
Their interaction when sent on a mission together displayed a fondness that was palpable and enjoyable. I wish they had more scenes together tbh.


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First, Pyro is shown to be anything but "well adjusted' in X2.
I agree. Notice how I never said that about Pyro, and I was clearly talking about Bobby.

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I'd rather have exploration of a character and their conflicts and choices than learn random facts about a character's past. Any day.
...okay? Me too.

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You can learn things about Angel, too, in the few scenes he's in. He obviously wants to please his father, and is a bit shy, or rather, repressed. He's probably not had an easy home life, because his father is obviously ashamed of his mutantcy. He is frightened and reluctant to undergo the cure, and is ultimately angry that its being forced upon him. He reacts somewhat violently when restrained (huh, look at that). He values his differences, yet forgives his father for his bigotry, and rescues him in the end. He also values the idea of the X-Men, as he clearly needs refuge later in the movie.

If you don't know why Angel runs away...yeesh. Its blatantly obvious. He's embracing his mutant gifts and fleeing his father's repression. He wants to be free, not kept under wraps. Its apparent visually and storywise.
Angel's father is depicted as being fairly reasonable tbh. In the flashback, he is concerned about his son, and horrified by what the kid did to himself. You assume that Angel's shame stems from a relationship with his father but there's nothing to imply that. Angel is shown to be ashamed, not his father.

Daddy isn't depicted as a bigot at any point. He says he wants to help free people from the mutant condition and there's never a scene to disprove that. He apparently dedicated his life to a cure for his son. He may have been wrong, but he's not shown to be evil at any point.

I actually prefered his character over his son's, because unlike Angel, Worthington Sr is a more active character in the plot, and his POV on the cure is grounded with far more context and emotional weight.

I was joking about the fear of needles, but it shows how little Foster had to work with when you could say a needle phobia was the case and there'd be little in the film to disprove it.

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You don't agree with what? That the romantic aspects in previous films weren't well handled?

So now because it wasn't used to anchor those two films, it doesn't matter?
I don't agree that the triangle wasn't well handled in the previous installments. It was a small element in those films. Logan developed a bond with Jean, a crush that he pursued, got shot down and finally consoled Scott after she died. It worked fine.

It doesn't matter because X1 and X2 have no bearing on the quality of TLS. Tu Quoque.

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No...it's not a retread of his previous arc.

Wolverine's arc in X2 was mostly about finding out who he was and coming to terms with it. If you'll recall, Wolverine chose to be an X-Man in X-MEN as well. The whole loner VS X-Men thing was secondary to his main storyline, and is, in fact, a theme that has run through all three films. The point of his arc in X2 is that he learned and admitted he had a violent past, but chose not to become what Stryker wanted him to, deciding to try to find his answers with the X-Men. He was beginning to grow into a key member of the team in X2, just as he started to do in X-MEN.

In X3 he took this further, building on the lessons of X2. It's not a "retread", because it explored different elements of his membership of the team and of his life, namely taking he took part in training, had a hand in mentoring the younger X-Men, and became a leader, which he was not in X2, where he barely wanted to be part of the team's actions unless it served his ends. It's an evolving character arc.
Actually, if I remember (and I do), Logan left the Xmen at the end of the first film, with a promise that he'd return to see Rogue.

It's the second film that develops the story of who he is. He eventually disgards a promise to learn about his past with Stryker in favour of staying with the Xmen and beginning his future.

TLS is a retread because no matter how the circumstance have changed, all he has to learn from it all is that he wants to be in the team. Useless.

He made the choice to join the team. He chose them over his own ends. He did this in X2.

He didn't rise to become a leader. He's never asked to be a leader. He doesn't mentor the kids. The most effective teaching he gives is in the first film with Rogue. He gives a lame speech about being Xmen, imediately after ditching them to seek out Jean. What changed his mind? Nothing. It's bad writing.

Furthermore, the things that draw him away from the team in this film are pitiful too. Instead of the lure of his lost memories, it's saving Jean. Fair enough. How does that cause tension with the team exactly? Surely the team are just as interested in confronting Jean, whether she can be saved or not... Nope. The tension is: Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. Ah okay. That makes sense.


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He doesn't "have to kill his lover", because they are not lovers. He has to kill the woman he loves. That doesn't make it anything resembling a typical love story.
It's far more typical from his point of view than hers. She's basically Angel in Buffy when he loses his soul. The complexities of Jean's struggles are largely glossed over. It's not helped by all the scenes of her standing motionless in the background while other plots move forward either. There's no urgency in her plight because the film switches the threat of Phoenix on-and-off.


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He absolutely does do something in THE LAST STAND. Since he, at the end of X, joined Magneto, now his role is evolving.

He has essentially become Magneto's bodyguard, and stands up for him in the mutant meeting. He wants to "belong" so much that he states he would have killed the professor had he been asked. But he's all talk. However, he goes from merely being verbal about his support for the Brotherhood's goals, to actively taking part in terrorist activities. By the end of the film, he's progressed from being derogatory about those who want to take the cure, and merely taunting Bobby, and is ultimately willing to kill his former friend, as well as his former teammates. This is an evolution of character, and stuff about him we certainly didn't know in X2.
You've invented that arc. He went from threatening violence against Bobby to commiting viloence against Bobby. That isn't development. He wasn't reluctant before, he wasn't all words. He commited violent acts throughout the entire film, destroying cure centres, killing prison guards. You're reaching with this, seriously.


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"Easily" is relative, and that's kind of the point. She's dormant as long as he doesn't want to diminish her, though she threatens him at one point.

As far as "little consequence to his actions", there's a very, very clear moment in the movie when Magneto realizes he has tampered with powers he couldn't control.
You mean that hokey line "What have.. I done?" that even McKellen couldn't save? That line at the end of the film where he realises that Jean can't be controlled? Where he's supposed to learn something that was absolutely obvious from the moment she obliterated his best friend despite his desperate protests? God this film is awful lol.


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There is very obvious external/internal conflict when she wakes with Logan.

There is also conflict at the end of the film when she's trying to kill Logan. Dark Phoenix is every bit as well handled as Jean's Phoenix abilities in X2 were, and actually a lot better, and more fully fleshed out. The issue is developed, and she evolves as a character.
What is this fleshed out evolution you speak of? Please, go on.

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That's nonsense. We see plenty about how much Jean means to Charles. The whole point of the scene is that he wants to help her. He even asks Eric to avoid interfering because she is not well. He is willing to die for her in order to help her, to battle the Dark Phoenix. His last words are "Don't let it control you", which obviously points to him caring about her.
When is this "what Charles means to Jean" material then? She appears to wake up... and erm... tells him to stay out of her head... and ... oh yeah.. kills him.

Charles' motivation is blurred by his uneven characterisation. He seems petty to Logan, and his bickering with Magneto is understandable yet doesn't carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. Again, the film fails to make me root for Charles by the time he dies.

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He doesn't cuss out Logan. He says "I don't have to explain myself. Least of all to you". It's not out of character, it's just not an aspect of Xavier we had seen prior to that scene. Read a comic book. Xavier is allowed to be stressed out, and occassionally rude.

It wasn't.
That's cussing out in my book. It's a petty and personal attack, and makes the viewer question his intent and wisdom. It's okay for his composure to be lost in times of stress, but it's unbalanced in the film and does a diservice to a great character and later a major loss to the team. He's rapidly cast into doubt and killed, which wastes both interesting ideas by playing them off-together and diminishing both.


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Old 05-07-2012, 03:01 PM   #66
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:07 PM   #67
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:10 AM   #68
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Their interaction when sent on a mission together displayed a fondness that was palpable and enjoyable. I wish they had more scenes together tbh.
They got along well enough as teammates...I remember some humor surrounding Nightcrawler's appearance. There's nothing about them actually being close friends in the films. What specifically are you referring to?

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I agree. Notice how I never said that about Pyro, and I was clearly talking about Bobby.
Ah. Sorry about that.

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...okay? Me too.
And this is my point. You made the statement "We learn more about Pyro from one glance in X2".

A, I don't believe that's true.

B, I don't want one glance. I want actions and exploration of themes. That's what we got with Pyro in his Magneto scene in X2, and in THE LAST STAND.

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Angel's father is depicted as being fairly reasonable tbh. In the flashback, he is concerned about his son, and horrified by what the kid did to himself. You assume that Angel's shame stems from a relationship with his father but there's nothing to imply that. Angel is shown to be ashamed, not his father.
There's nothing to imply that Warren's shame stems from his relationship with his father?

How about the opening sequence where Warren is cutting off his wings, and Warren Sr says "Oh, God...not you".

And Angel says "Dad. I'm sorry"...and looks ashamed and sad.

He's quite clearly not happy with Warren wings.

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Daddy isn't depicted as a bigot at any point. He says he wants to help free people from the mutant condition and there's never a scene to disprove that. He apparently dedicated his life to a cure for his son. He may have been wrong, but he's not shown to be evil at any point.
I never said he was depicted as a bigot or that he was depicted as evil.

People who want their children to be "normal" aren't neccessarily evil, and there's some nice depth that is brought to X3 with that angle. A more balanced view say, than, Bobby's parents in X2. These types of parents are often still repressing their children, which is what Warren Sr. apparently does. He tries to convince Warren to take the cure, when Warren clearly doesn't want to. So Warren escapes.

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I actually prefered his character over his son's, because unlike Angel, Worthington Sr is a more active character in the plot, and his POV on the cure is grounded with far more context and emotional weight.
They're both pretty good characters. Overlapping, part of the same basic arc.

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I was joking about the fear of needles, but it shows how little Foster had to work with when you could say a needle phobia was the case and there'd be little in the film to disprove it.
Except that you couldn't say that. Only a blithering idiot could watch this movie and in the context of the film and that scene say that Warren doesn't want the cure because he's afraid of needles.

It is obvious why he doesn't take the cure.

Warren Sr: "It's a normal life. It's what we all want."
Warren: "No. It's what you want".

He doesn't want to be cured. The film makes this quite clear.

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I don't agree that the triangle wasn't well handled in the previous installments. It was a small element in those films. Logan developed a bond with Jean, a crush that he pursued, got shot down and finally consoled Scott after she died. It worked fine.
It wasn't all that well handled in previous movies compared to many other romantic arcs I've seen, including most comic book ones. Logan and Jean have no real commonality besides basic attraction. By the end of X2, despite these elements not being well handled, it's apparent that Logan loved Jean, which carries into X3.

So, for you, it somehow works fine in previous films, but somehow the evolution and continuation of that storyline doesn't work here? Why?

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Actually, if I remember (and I do), Logan left the Xmen at the end of the first film, with a promise that he'd return to see Rogue.
He did, but before that, as you will hopefully recall, he joined them. He put on a suit and fought with them. That was the extent of his joining them in X-MEN. X2 evolved that concept further, and X3 evolved it to the point where he accepts his role as a leader with the team, at least for the time being.

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It's the second film that develops the story of who he is. He eventually disgards a promise to learn about his past with Stryker in favour of staying with the Xmen and beginning his future.
He never implies that he will stay with them, though. He says he'll take his chances with them. The implication is that he will take his chances with people like them, with the innocent mutants, instead of people like Stryker. There's no proof he's going to stick around any more than he did in X-MEN or X2.

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TLS is a retread because no matter how the circumstance have changed, all he has to learn from it all is that he wants to be in the team. Useless.
Except that this is not his arc at all. He has to learn that he wants to be a LEADER on the team. That's his arc in X3.

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He made the choice to join the team. He chose them over his own ends. He did this in X2.
I'm aware of that (thoug he also did that in X-MEN), which is why I'm saying its an evolution of his character from X2.

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He didn't rise to become a leader. He's never asked to be a leader. He doesn't mentor the kids. The most effective teaching he gives is in the first film with Rogue. He gives a lame speech about being Xmen, imediately after ditching them to seek out Jean. What changed his mind? Nothing. It's bad writing.
He does mentor the kids, because he's right there doing it. In his way. Through COMBAT, and through his assessment of their talent. It's not a great element, but it's there. I'm sorry that you feel his speech is lame. It's not supposed to be terribly profound. It's Logan leading as best he can, with the skills he has.

At the beginning of the film, he was "passing through", but its heavily implied that he's bee there a while. He was planning not to be a leader on the team, that is made fairly obvious.

What changes his mind is what happens with Jean, what happens to Xavier, and the the threat posed by Magneto, which Logan is the first X-Man discover. He takes up a leadership role, because Scott is dead, and because Logan believes in Xaviers dream.

It's not bad writing anymore than anything in this franchise has been bad writing. It's not any more or less forced than suddenly deciding to join the X-Men at the end of X2 after being a loner for much of the film. He has reasons for doing what he does in the film, and its made quite clear why he does what he does.

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Furthermore, the things that draw him away from the team in this film are pitiful too. Instead of the lure of his lost memories, it's saving Jean. Fair enough. How does that cause tension with the team exactly? Surely the team are just as interested in confronting Jean, whether she can be saved or not... Nope. The tension is: Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. Ah okay. That makes sense.
You think its pitiful that he tries to save his friend/former ally/the woman he loves? That he thinks she may have some shot at redemption?

The tension is not there because Storm forbids him from tracking down Jean. The tension is there because Storm realizes that they're going to have to FIGHT Jean. She knows he has feelings for her, and that this will make it difficult to do so. It causes tension for Logan, not the team. The team's already experiencing tension, having lost Scott, Xavier, and more or less Jean.

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It's far more typical from his point of view than hers. She's basically Angel in Buffy when he loses his soul.
Which also isn't remotely a "typical" romantic angle. There's nothing typical about trying to save the woman you love, who doesn't even love you back, who has been possessed by a malevolent entity, even if it was subconsciously part of her, and then having to kill her because she can dissolve matter.

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The complexities of Jean's struggles are largely glossed over. It's not helped by all the scenes of her standing motionless in the background while other plots move forward either. There's no urgency in her plight because the film switches the threat of Phoenix on-and-off.
The complexities of the struggle are "glossed over" because the struggle is over. At some point, Jean Grey has to succumb to the Dark Phoenix. This happens in two sequences, after the scene with Logan, and as she kills Xavier. By the time she's with the Brotherhood, Dark Phoenix has won, and is firmly in
control of Jean Grey.

And...what does this have to do with me talking about Logan having to kill his lover? I agree with you, but this isn't a point I made. It's one of the weaknesses of the film's third act, but its not a dealbreaker. We see Jean struggle several times throughout the film.

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You've invented that arc.
Pyro's role in X3 is an escalation of bold words to deeds. It is not deep character development, but it is character development. Pyro is all talk in the beginning of X3. He's mouthy, he's posing, and he's bragging. And then he becomes about taking action. It's not a great arc, but neither was him being an ass, wanting to be more than human, and joining the Brotherhood at the first opportunity in X2.

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He went from threatening violence against Bobby to commiting violence against Bobby. That isn't development. He wasn't reluctant before, he wasn't all words. He commited violent acts throughout the entire film, destroying cure centres, killing prison guards. You're reaching with this, seriously.
I never said he was "reluctant". I said he was all words/talk at first.

He doesn't overtly threaten violence against Bobby as I recall, he points out that he feels that Bobby's mission and his girlfriend are pathetic, and dares Bobby to attack him (because he IS somewhat reluctant to take action). There's a huge difference in determination and intention between these kinds of things, and then escalating to blowing up a cure facility or attacking Bobby and the X-Men with the intent to harm them.

Pyro defends Magneto in the transport. This is his first major action, and a huge difference from what he did last time, where he was basically just showing off recklessly with his power in X2 when cornered.

But he doesn't destroy the cure center until later on in the film. He doesn't actually physically confront Bobby and the X-Men until Alcatraz Island.

If simply joining Magneto's Brotherhood is development, then you'd better believe that progressing from ideology to violent action is as well.

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You mean that hokey line "What have.. I done?" that even McKellen couldn't save? That line at the end of the film where he realises that Jean can't be controlled? Where he's supposed to learn something that was absolutely obvious from the moment she obliterated his best friend despite his desperate protests? God this film is awful lol.
Well, that line is the most obvious example, but everything right before that, where Magneto can SEE what he has done as well. Magneto knew about Jean's power. He knew her potential. But he thought he could control her.

What's Magneto supposed to learn from Jean killing Charles? What he learned is this. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONTROLLED. Jean killed Charles because he tried to control her. So Magneto, who has learned his lesson, doesn't control her. He says, very clearly in the film, "I want you to be what you are".

His failing is that, as Charles said, Magneto had no idea what she was capable of. No one did, except maybe Charles.

I don't see how Magneto not knowing this makes the film awful. It simply makes Magneto reckless and willing to take risks for his goals, and makes his attempt to use Jean a failed one.

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What is this fleshed out evolution you speak of? Please, go on.
I said Dark Phoenix was more fully fleshed out than Phoenix was.

Phoenix in X2 was treated as an evolution of Jean's power, and showed up in a few very brief and somewhat vague sequences before she evolved at the end of the movie. There's only one scene actually dealing with it, and its in the beginning of X2 when she's talking to Scott. Then, there's a scene after it happens, where Xavier basically says Jean was afraid of her power, and that she made a choice. Jean being hesitant about Cerebro was used in X-MEN, but it wasn't exactly a concept that was explored.

Whereas in THE LAST STAND, the Dark Phoenix angle has multiple scenes devoted to exploring the concept, the origin, the various psychological elements behind it, and the impact it has on those around it.

The concept was fleshed out a lot more than Phoenix was in X-MEN and X2. Are you really going to argue that?

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When is this "what Charles means to Jean" material then? She appears to wake up... and erm... tells him to stay out of her head... and ... oh yeah.. kills him.
I said "What Jean means to Charles", not "What Charles means to Jean".

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Charles' motivation is blurred by his uneven characterisation. He seems petty to Logan, and his bickering with Magneto is understandable yet doesn't carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. Again, the film fails to make me root for Charles by the time he dies.
There's nothing petty about Charles not wanting to explain himself. The stakes are obvious.

I'd argue that his sparring with Magneto DOES carry the tension of his desperation to reign her in. The psychic fight certainly does, and that's where
the tension should be at its strongest.

I don't care that the film fails to make you root for Charles. I don't want films to be "made" to feel things, I watch films because I enjoy the craft.

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That's cussing out in my book. It's a petty and personal attack, and makes the viewer question his intent and wisdom. It's okay for his composure to be lost in times of stress, but it's unbalanced in the film and does a diservice to a great character and later a major loss to the team. He's rapidly cast into doubt and killed, which wastes both interesting ideas by playing them off-together and diminishing both.
Its actually not petty at all. Wolverine is wasting time questioning Xavier's action when he doesn't know the extent of the issue. Xavier is simply saying that he believes he made the right choice, and implying that they have some commonality, as Logan has done things that were unsavory before, too.

The viewer SHOULD be questioning his wisdom. That's the whole point of Xavier's role and that element in this movie.

Xavier's not unbalanced. He never loses his composure in that scene, and only really loses his composure when he can't get through to Jean later on. He says what he says to Wolverine in the sick bay relatively calmly.

And...I don't think you know what cussing out means:

when somebody screams a long string of cuss words at another in the hopes of insulting them. this is a tactic used by dolts lacking the vocabulary to actually belt out a witty insult.

to use profanity; curse; swear.


It also means to reprimand harshly for failing, which is not the context of the scene with Wolverine and Xavier.

Xavier didn't do anything to Logan that can be considered cussing, cursing or harshly reprimanding.

What interesting ideas were wasted now?

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Old 05-08-2012, 04:24 PM   #69
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The thought of breaking that up and responding to each point gives me a headache. Maybe I'll get around to it later.

I'll give you that line from Worthington sr. in the pre-credit sequence. Forgot about that line, and it does root his POV from a more biased stance than I previously argued.

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Old 05-09-2012, 04:40 AM   #70
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I don't think that X3 is a great movie by any means, but ... To be perfectly honest ... I wasn't really happy with X1 or X2 either (aside from how Nightcrawler was handled- he was perfect). I've always found the X-Men trilogy to be middle-of-the-road movies, the Wolverine movie to be terrible, and First Class to be fantastic.

I wasn't outraged by Cyclops' death in X3 because of how poorly he was established in the first two X-Men movies. All he did was whine at Wolverine and get himself captured in the first two films, so I wasn't shocked at all when he was offed in the third movie. The movie got an annoying character out of the way.

And as for Rogue getting the cure ... Well ... Rogue was never MY Rogue in the movies. All she did was complain about her powers, so wouldn't it make sense for her to get the cure in the last film?

Meh. I'm just rambling I guess. I don't understand the hate towards X3 simply because I don't think the movie had a great setup in the first place, so ... Yeah.

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Old 05-09-2012, 01:29 PM   #71
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And as for Rogue getting the cure ... Well ... Rogue was never MY Rogue in the movies. All she did was complain about her powers, so wouldn't it make sense for her to get the cure in the last film?
Except that's not true. She complains about her powers in X-Men, just like she does in the books, and doesn't once complain about them in X2. In fact, she says "Wow!" when she absorbs Iceman's abilities after kissing him, and she's the one eager to know when they get X-Men uniforms just before Iceman has to hold her back from confronting freaking Magneto on the X-Jet. I don't know anyone who, after X2, thought the next step for Rogue would be what happens to her in The Last Stand, and I'm not just talking about the cure. "You're a guy, Bobby. Your mind's only on one thing." Really???

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Old 05-09-2012, 01:45 PM   #72
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Except that's not true. She complains about her powers in X-Men, just like she does in the books, and doesn't once complain about them in X2. In fact, she says "Wow!" when she absorbs Iceman's abilities after kissing him, and she's the one eager to know when they get X-Men uniforms just before Iceman has to hold her back from confronting freaking Magneto on the X-Jet. I don't know anyone who, after X2, thought the next step for Rogue would be what happens to her in The Last Stand, and I'm not just talking about the cure. "You're a guy, Bobby. Your mind's only on one thing." Really???
Even when she confronted Magneto on the X-Jet, it still came across as whiny and mouse-y to me. I dunno, maybe it was the way Anna Paquin acted. That scene always came across as awkward to me because I wasn't convinced she was going to do anything.

As for the kiss with Bobbie in X2 and the "You mind is only on one thing" line in X3: Well, it seemed to me that Rogue's powers in X2 were primarily focused on how they affected their relationship, so ... In the context of the movies, it made sense. At least to me it did.

I remember when X3 came out to theaters, my I got my friend to watch all three. She wasn't familiar with the comic books at all back then, so her impression of Rogue in the movies was "She was so miserable, I don't blame her for getting The Cure." If that's the impression movie Rogue made to newbies, then I'm not happy.

Anyway, my point is this: I'm not trying to sing the praises of X3, because I don't think it's a very good movie. What I am trying to say is that I'm not outraged by it because the first two movies left me dissatisfied on how they handled most of the characters, so I place blame on all three. That's all.

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Old 05-09-2012, 01:56 PM   #73
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Except that's not true. She complains about her powers in X-Men, just like she does in the books, and doesn't once complain about them in X2. In fact, she says "Wow!" when she absorbs Iceman's abilities after kissing him, and she's the one eager to know when they get X-Men uniforms just before Iceman has to hold her back from confronting freaking Magneto on the X-Jet. I don't know anyone who, after X2, thought the next step for Rogue would be what happens to her in The Last Stand, and I'm not just talking about the cure. "You're a guy, Bobby. Your mind's only on one thing." Really???
I was just about to post the exact same thing but you beat me to it.

X2 set up a whole hell of a lot more than what we got in X3 first just cosmetics like why the hell is there no Phoenix effect for Jean?

Then the interactions between the characters seemed to miss any sparkle. Storm's suddenly up Wolverine's ass and not caring about anyones feelings but her own (biatch alert). There are just to many things wrong with the film. The fact that Bryan himself said he was going to fix a lot of the "problems" with the last to flims (making giving Rogue more physicality in her role, Phoenix being much closer to the comics interpretation, and Cyclops having a much better role in general) in interviews, while what we got was more of the same if not worse, always compounded the tragedy that we never got to see his X3 for me.

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Old 05-09-2012, 04:13 PM   #74
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

And therein lies my point. The same weaknesses fans point to in X3 are all over X-MEN and X2. X3 actually handled some things better.

I've never really gotten this "Bryan Singer was going to do it right" thing. Okay. Based on
what?

-X-fans complained (and still do) about his movies in much the same way they've complained about Ratner's.

-He didn't exactly knock SUPERMAN RETURNS out of the park for most people.

-We know Tom Rothman doesn't like Cyclops, and wanted Wolverine center stage.


-We've heard about Cyclops role in X3 being bigger, but we SAW how Cyclops was handled in X2.

-We've heard the basic idea they had for The Phoenix, and that's all well and good, but let's not forget...we actually SAW how Phoenix was handled in X2. It wasn't that great. But somehow we're to believe he would have done this amazing job with Dark Phoenix, despite Phoenix basically being glossed over? I really like X-MEN and X2, and I like Bryan Singer a decent amount, but I have a hard time believing that.

In particular, Rogue hasn't been the Rogue of the comics for three films. Bryan and company may have planned to give her more powers and whatnot, but so did the X-MEN: THE LAST STAND creative team. This, along with another Colossus battle, along with several other things, didn't make it into the film for budget reasons. An issue that Bryan Singer, who couldn't get Beast or Angel into X-MEN or X2, would still have had to deal with.

So yeah. Might it have been better? Sure. We'll never actually know. At some point, fans need to start being realistic about what kind of adaption this franchise was, and what it was realistically going to be, and look at what's actually there in something resembling a fair way.

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Old 05-09-2012, 06:41 PM   #75
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And therein lies my point. The same weaknesses fans point to in X3 are all over X-MEN and X2. X3 actually handled some things better.

I've never really gotten this "Bryan Singer was going to do it right" thing. Okay. Based on
what?

-X-fans complained (and still do) about his movies in much the same way they've complained about Ratner's.

-He didn't exactly knock SUPERMAN RETURNS out of the park for most people.

-We know Tom Rothman doesn't like Cyclops, and wanted Wolverine center stage.


-We've heard about Cyclops role in X3 being bigger, but we SAW how Cyclops was handled in X2.

-We've heard the basic idea they had for The Phoenix, and that's all well and good, but let's not forget...we actually SAW how Phoenix was handled in X2. It wasn't that great. But somehow we're to believe he would have done this amazing job with Dark Phoenix, despite Phoenix basically being glossed over? I really like X-MEN and X2, and I like Bryan Singer a decent amount, but I have a hard time believing that.

In particular, Rogue hasn't been the Rogue of the comics for three films. Bryan and company may have planned to give her more powers and whatnot, but so did the X-MEN: THE LAST STAND creative team. This, along with another Colossus battle, along with several other things, didn't make it into the film for budget reasons. An issue that Bryan Singer, who couldn't get Beast or Angel into X-MEN or X2, would still have had to deal with.

So yeah. Might it have been better? Sure. We'll never actually know. At some point, fans need to start being realistic about what kind of adaption this franchise was, and what it was realistically going to be, and look at what's actually there in something resembling a fair way.
That's solid logic if you think TLS was anywhere near as good as Singer's. If you're one of the many who don't, then it's obvious why you'd think otherwise.

TLS got Beast right. I wish Grammar was in a better film.

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