Discussion: The European Union

[hippie_hunter]

A socialist revolution would hinder Greece further. It would be kicked out of the European Union and pretty much any outsider would want to do nothing with Greece.

[enterthemadness]

Watching the 60 minutes thing on Greece & European Union.

[demitri_vampiro]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

A socialist revolution would hinder Greece further. It would be kicked out of the European Union and pretty much any outsider would want to do nothing with Greece.

not necessarily. because they are in the eu, they are limited in the possibilities to solve their problems. once out of eu, they can also devaluate their currency. none of the countries that entered the eu, have really benefited from it. in fact all of them went backwards.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by demitri_vampiro

not necessarily. because they are in the eu, they are limited in the possibilities to solve their problems. once out of eu, they can also devaluate their currency. none of the countries that entered the eu, have really benefited from it. in fact all of them went backwards.

That also means no more bailouts for them and a default on their debt. Its going to be even harder for Greek government to pay for any social programs if that happens. Greece needs the EU far more the EU needs Greece, I bet many in the EU would happy to cut Greece loose.

Greece is not in an position of strength at moment, they are not in a position to dictate terms to other EU countries who will want the money they lend to Greece back and I don't think going it alone would help them that much. If Greece doesn't think things can get worse, they are sadly mistaken. If they leave the EU, things would get worse for their economy, not better.

[demitri_vampiro]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

That also means no more bailouts for them and a default on their debt. Its going to be even harder for Greek government to pay for any social programs if that happens. Greece needs the EU far more the EU needs Greece, I bet many in the EU would happy to cut Greece loose.

Greece is not in an position of strength at moment, they are not in a position to dictate terms to other EU countries who will want the money they lend to Greece back and I don't think going it alone would help them that much. If Greece doesn't think things can get worse, they are sadly mistaken. If they leave the EU, things would get worse for their economy, not better.

actually it is the other way around. if eu doesnt need greece that much, why spend all that money to save it. it maybe a loan, but most of that money will not be made back. eu needs greece to sustain its own ˝life˝. should greece leave the eu, then the eu will gradually start to fall apart.
the eu polititians know that as well. all these negotiations between greece and eu about bailout and always just barely making the deadline is just an act so the eu countries can gain support by their citizens for the bailout by acting as if they are tough and making the greek government work hard to get the money.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by demitri_vampiro

not necessarily. because they are in the eu, they are limited in the possibilities to solve their problems. once out of eu, they can also devaluate their currency. none of the countries that entered the eu, have really benefited from it. in fact all of them went backwards.

Falling under socialist revolution would just isolate Greece from the international community. The only way a socialist revolution would work is if it happens all at once and that just will not happen.

[hippie_hunter]

- Polls are showing Greek's political future to succumb to complete chaos with the Socialists and New Democracy losing seats to extreme right and extreme left parties. New Democracy currently holds a slim lead. Which could lead to more Eurozone chaos.

- Francois Hollande has won the first round of elections in France. He will go into a runoff election against President Nicolas Sarkozy. A Hollande victory, the most likely outcome, is seen as a potential destabilizing factor in the Eurozone.

Fun Fact: Hollande wants to impose a 75% tax rate on those who make more than 1,000,000 Euros a year.

- The government in the Netherlands has collapsed.

-

[Axl Van Sixx]

Originally Posted by demitri_vampiro

one can only hope that this whole situation with greece might bring up a revolution in which socialism will overcome capitalism.

I like the cut of your jib.

Unfortunately, even though the Greek Communist Party (KKE) is surging in the polls, they're following a very sectarian path. Basically, they want all the protests to be under their own umbrella. You can see that the old Stalinist leaders are still ****ing things up as always.

The KKE and the Greek Revolution

[enterthemadness]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

- Polls are showing Greek's political future to succumb to complete chaos with the Socialists and New Democracy losing seats to extreme right and extreme left parties. New Democracy currently holds a slim lead. Which could lead to more Eurozone chaos.

- Francois Hollande has won the first round of elections in France. He will go into a runoff election against President Nicolas Sarkozy. A Hollande victory, the most likely outcome, is seen as a potential destabilizing factor in the Eurozone.

Fun Fact: Hollande wants to impose a 75% tax rate on those who make more than 1,000,000 Euros a year.

- The government in the Netherlands has collapsed.

-

WOW.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Axl Van Sixx

I like the cut of your jib.

Unfortunately, even though the Greek Communist Party (KKE) is surging in the polls, they're following a very sectarian path. Basically, they want all the protests to be under their own umbrella. You can see that the old Stalinist leaders are still ****ing things up as always.

The KKE and the Greek Revolution

What scares me the most about the Greek elections is that not only is the extreme left surging in the polls, but the extreme right is climbing up as well. Neo-Nazis have 5% of the vote. Who the **** would even consider those people? The Independent Greeks are polling just as well as the Communists, and who knows how far they will go.

This clash of extremes is not going to produce anything productive.

[Axl Van Sixx]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

What scares me the most about the Greek elections is that not only is the extreme left surging in the polls, but the extreme right is climbing up as well. Neo-Nazis have 5% of the vote. Who the **** would even consider those people? The Independent Greeks are polling just as well as the Communists, and who knows how far they will go.

This clash of extremes is not going to produce anything productive.

I was really disappointed to see that the far-right candidate Marine Le Pen of the National Front came third in the first run of the French presidential elections. I had heard a lot of hype around Jean-Luc Mélenchon of the Left Front (a union of the French Communist Party and other left parties) making some headway, but in the end he got a measly 11% to Le Pen's 18%. Part of that, I think, was in reaction to the recent shooting at the Jewish school in Toulouse.

Still, you shouldn't lump together the far right and the radical left as equal "extremes". That's a rhetorical trick used to bolster liberal, i.e. bourgeois democracy as the only "reasonable" form of government, despite the fact that it only works for a small minority.

[hippie_hunter]

Communists and neo-Nazis are extremes. They just represent the extreme ends of the opposite spectrum.

[Handsome Rob]

Wealthy French Eye Move Across the Channel

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/278412e6-9...#axzz1tzzzXPq7

Wealthy French people are looking to London as a refuge from fresh taxes on high earners pledged by candidates in the country’s presidential elections. The “soak the rich” rhetoric that has punctuated the presidential campaign has prompted a sharp rise in the numbers weighing a move across the Channel, according to London-based wealth managers, lawyers and property agents specialising in French clients.

Well, this is no surprise. Part of me hopes Hollande wins and implements his 75% rate. Then, the wealth of France will hollow out as the wealthy move their earnings elsewhere, government will be underfunded, and maybe--just maybe--the French people will learn that Churchill was right when he said, "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Other countries should lure the wealthy French by stressing their lower tax rates on income. Tennessee has no state income tax, and that's a definite factor in my living here. Tax policy matters.

[chamber-music]

They will fit right in in London with all the rich Russians, Middle Eastern and Chinese folks I guess. Tories will protect them.

[hippie_hunter]

I really hope that Hollande loses. Sarkozy isn't that good of a President to begin with, but unless Hollande backs down on his most outrageous promises, he's going to destroy France.

[Dr. Evil]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I really hope that Hollande loses. Sarkozy isn't that good of a President to begin with, but unless Hollande backs down on his most outrageous promises, he's going to destroy France.

Get ready to see France destroyed:

http://news.yahoo.com/hollande-wins-...180704535.html

[chamber-music]

I wouldn't worry too much. Most people think Francois Hollande isn't going to be able to do half the stuff he campainged about like most politicans.

I'm worried about those Neo-Nazis Golden Dawn in Greece jumping from 0.3% to possibly 8%. The rise of those extreamists taking advantage of peoples dissatisfaction with the traditional parties is disturbing.

Especially when their supporters say stuff like this

"We believe in our race, we believe in our nation's power,".

"These immigrants have not been checked for diseases. If a Greek person feels threatened by an immigrant, I justify someone trying to give them justice.

"I don't know why I should care about violence against immigrants."

[Axl Van Sixx]

Don't let the "Socialist" moniker of Hollande's party fool you - this guy is a careerist and extreme "moderate" who, like all reformist politicians, wants to be seen as a responsible caretaker of capitalism.

The only thing that will prevent him from pushing austerity is if a mass movement in France pushes him to the left. We already saw that during the election; he had to propose measures like the 75% tax rate on the wealthy to protect his left flank from Melenchon and the Left Front.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Axl Van Sixx

Don't let the "Socialist" moniker of Hollande's party fool you - this guy is a careerist and extreme "moderate" who, like all reformist politicians, wants to be seen as a responsible caretaker of capitalism.

The only thing that will prevent him from pushing austerity is if a mass movement in France pushes him to the left. We already saw that during the election; he had to propose measures like the 75% tax rate on the wealthy to protect his left flank from Melenchon and the Left Front.

The French Socialist Party are not true Socialists the way Marx envisioned, but more along the lines of a social democracy party. But with Hollande's platform, if he goes through with it, is going to destroy France.

[chamber-music]

They don't sound all that different from the Labour Party in the UK who are also Socialists but not really socialists. Labour were more pro-big business than the conservative party when they were in power.

[hippie_hunter]

Well back in the late 1800's/early 1900's the socialist movement pretty much split into the hardcore communists (Lenin) and those who adapted their platforms to appeal to the masses and became social democratic parties (English Labour, German Social Democrats, French Socialists, etc.).

[hippie_hunter]

Results of the Greek elections:

New Democracy - 18.9%, 108 seats
Coalition of the Radical Left - 16.8%, 52 seats
Panhellenic Socialist Movement - 13.2%, 41 seats
Independent Greeks - 10.6%, 33 seats
Communist Party - 8.5%, 26 seats
Golden Dawn - 7%, 21 seats

[8wid]

I have a professor friend who recently went to Italy in December and was concerned from what she saw that Italy, Spain, and Greece really were on the brink of economic collapse. Not exactly good news despite whoever gets elected.

Once Greece or one of the others collapses, the stagflation is going to hit across the Globe, especially Europe and the United States. It may be bad enough with the already other weak factors to cause a global depression instead of simply a double dip recession that is now being officially acknowledged in Britain and other nations.

[hippie_hunter]

I think that the Eurozone is going to kick Greece out before such a thing occurs. The only way Greece can recover is if they drop the Euro and in the event that Greece does default, Greece getting kicked out beforehand will control the impact it has on the global economy.

[Mikelus]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

The French Socialist Party are not true Socialists the way Marx envisioned, but more along the lines of a social democracy party. But with Hollande's platform, if he goes through with it, is going to destroy France.

He knows that, in the 80's François Mitterrand started with very leftist measures but had to backtrack to save France's economy. That platform was to get votes from the radical left. Anyway, France is going to be in trouble, the country lacks labor flexibility and taxes are just way too high to stay competitive.