The Official Rate/Review Thread for Marvel's The Avengers! (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 2

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Matt

Another small gripe of mine that I brought up in my private conversation with Spider-Fan

I loved the scene of Loki owning Black Widow from his cell. The only part I didn't like was that Whedon felt the need to make it one of Widow's discrete interrogations. She shouldn't have outsmarted Loki like that. He should've saw right through it. Especially since the second act was all about Loki outsmarting the Avengers and defeating them to their lowest point. Widow walking out of that scene with the win really left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since it served absolutely no purpose (the knowledge that she gained really didn't lead to anything). It was just Whedon being all, "Ooooh look how tough and clever Buffy...I mean Black Widow is!" And he did so at the expense of Loki's character (at a time when Loki was supposed to be triumphant, it would be one thing to outsmart him in the climax, but not then)....I didn't like it at all and it ruined an otherwise perfect scene.

I dunno about that. BW may have thought that she figured Loki out and won the battle of the wits, but what happened afterward suggested otherwise:

1) Banner Hulk out (and created diversion for Loki)
2) Distraction allowed the mind controlled Hawkeye to cripple one of the propeller for helicarrier
3) Loki broke out of prison (and killed Agent Coulson in the process)

If BW won because she thought she figured out Loki's plan during the interrogation scene, then Loki not only broke out but managed to make sure his plan was implemented successfully. The only thing he didn't count on was by killing Coulson, he actually gave the heroes a strong reason to band together and defeat him in the end.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Matt

Honestly, I think it is time to end Stan Lee's cameos. Let The Avengers be the final one. It is basically the culmination of his creations. It's reached the point where they pull the viewer out of the movie for the sake of his ego. TIme to call it quits on that, I think.

Nah. Hitchcock did them his whole life. Sure Stan's are sillier, but so is the man. His cameo was great in The Avengers, right up there with the ones in Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man 3, and FF2 (the only part of that movie I liked) for me.

Also, you may want to avoid Webb's TASM, because I hear he has a cameo in that.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LuisTX85

She has been darn smart in the comics though and although I don't remember her out-smarting Loki..He has been out-smarted by many although mostly by Thor!

Thing is, all comic villains are inept after 30 + years of history. In the context of that film scene however, Loki should've had the last laugh. He should've shaken the girl we've spent two movies being told is unshakable, because that is what the entire second act was about, Loki destroying the Avengers in the guise of their prisoner.

Originally Posted by iJackSparrow

Iif you don't realize how false your statement is, you're completely CLUELESSS about what Black Widow was always portayed to be capable of. It's pointless to argue with someone that says that have the knowledge but doesn't have a clue.

Go look for Secret Avengers #20, written by Warren Ellis and art by Alex Maleev, one of the most recent examples of why she's such a bad ass and see for yourself what I'm talking about. There's a reason why she hangs with The Avengers, it isn't solely because Of her cleavage.

Be less patronizing. Might be fun.

And for the record there have been just as many comics where she is basically just a ruthless killer with underworld connections due to her days in the KGB. Funny thing about comics, characters are less consistent then soap opera characters due to the revolving door of writers.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Raiden

I dunno about that. BW may have thought that she figured Loki out and won the battle of the wits, but what happened afterward suggested otherwise:

1) Banner Hulk out (and created diversion for Loki)
2) Distraction allowed the mind controlled Hawkeye to cripple one of the propeller for helicarrier
3) Loki broke out of prison (and killed Agent Coulson in the process)

If BW won because she thought she figured out Loki's plan during the interrogation scene, then Loki not only broke out but managed to make sure his plan was implemented successfully. The only thing he didn't count on was by killing Coulson, he actually gave the heroes a strong reason to band together and defeat him in the end.

Exactly, the interrogation ultimately led to nothing so why not just let Loki have the win? Have him shake the unshakable member of the team. Makes him that much more threatening going into the climax. Not only did he destroy their base, he owns them mentally.

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Nah. Hitchcock did them his whole life. Sure Stan's are sillier, but so is the man. His cameo was great in The Avengers, right up there with the ones in Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man 3, and FF2 (the only part of that movie I liked) for me.

Also, you may want to avoid Webb's TASM, because I hear he has a cameo in that.

I'm avoiding Webb's TASM for a whole different slew of reasons.

[iJackSparrow]

Originally Posted by Matt

Be less patronizing. Might be fun.

And for the record there have been just as many comics where she is basically just a ruthless killer with underworld connections due to her days in the KGB. Funny thing about comics, characters are less consistent then soap opera characters due to the revolving door of writers.

You were the one talking in absolutes, sir. Any Marvel fan that has read The Avengers some years prior to Brian Michael Bendis Avengers is aware that your characterization is just flat out wrong and out of character.

Originally Posted by Mr. Immortal

Nah, man... guys like Batman, Captain America, Dr. Doom, Reed Richards, etc. solo omnipotent deities so often that it can't even be considered plot induced stupidity. Widow doesn't have that level of intelligence or tactical know-how. She's awesome, though.

I feel that I come from a different background than you guys. I've been reading comics for 28 years, especially Marvel and Batman comics, I just can't imagine a long time Avengers fan thinking it's not possible for Natasha to outsmart the God of Mischief, and more than that, to say that comparing her with Batman is not valid. It is. The parallel are all there, humans hanging and sometimes leading gods and supersoldiers. There's a reason for Natasha to hang among them, and it isn't just because of her cuteness. She's not only an extremely competent combatant, she's arguably the best superspy ever had and a brilliant tactician and estrategist. She has been portrayed interrogating and infiltrating criminal factions and playing the double agent countless times. She started the interrogation doing exactly what Matt thought Loki should perceive:

She at first played the double agent offering to maybe helping him to escape, Loki got carried away by her attempt to deceive him and didn't realize that was her true deception, to make him think he had her figured out. Brilliant move, I don't know how someone couldn't find that scene brilliantly constructed.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by iJackSparrow

You were the one talking in absolutes, sir. Any Marvel fan that has read The Avengers some years prior to Brian Michael Bendis Avengers is aware that your characterization is just flat out wrong and out of character.

Or just not how I prefer the character. Like I said, all comic characters are subject to 30-60 years of interpretation from different writers. Widow ranges from a hired gun who is really nothing more than a skilled soldier and killer (like the Punisher) to the uber-spy, but she has, IMO, never been anything close to Batman (who has almost become tongue-in-cheek God-like).

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Matt

Exactly, the interrogation ultimately led to nothing so why not just let Loki have the win? Have him shake the unshakable member of the team. Makes him that much more threatening going into the climax. Not only did he destroy their base, he owns them mentally.

I think BW thought she won the interrogation, just like she did for countless other interrogation, but judging from the end results it seems obvious to me that Loki probably made her believe she did (but actually didn't). And having her in the same room with everyone actually created a tensed environment that sped up Banner's progress to Hulk out, so I think Loki was the winner, not BW.

[Whiskey Tango]

MCU Widow ≠ 616 Widow

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Matt

Another small gripe of mine that I brought up in my private conversation with Spider-Fan

I loved the scene of Loki owning Black Widow from his cell. The only part I didn't like was that Whedon felt the need to make it one of Widow's discrete interrogations. She shouldn't have outsmarted Loki like that. He should've saw right through it. Especially since the second act was all about Loki outsmarting the Avengers and defeating them to their lowest point. Widow walking out of that scene with the win really left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since it served absolutely no purpose (the knowledge that she gained really didn't lead to anything). It was just Whedon being all, "Ooooh look how tough and clever Buffy...I mean Black Widow is!" And he did so at the expense of Loki's character (at a time when Loki was supposed to be triumphant, it would be one thing to outsmart him in the climax, but not then)....I didn't like it at all and it ruined an otherwise perfect scene.

Loved that scene too. My favorite non-action scene in the movie, in fact. Great character building for her and one of the few times Loki goes from charmingly menacing to actually menacing. Her outsmarting him, I had no problem with. But I actually thought BW brought a lot to the movie. Now, Hawkeye on the other hand....

[magicangel1989]

Okay, i just got back from seeing the Avengers. So here is my review:


Marvel's The Avengers: 10/10


The Avengers was such an AMAZING film. It has replaced the Dark Knight as my favorite superhero film. This was the film that comic book fans, particularly Marvel comic book fans have been waiting for. The acting was fantastic, the visual effects were well down, and the story was very well written.

It was a very great idea that the producers decided to give some of the superheros their own origin movies before bringing them all together for
this mega-blockbuster. This was the closest thing we would probably ever get to a perfect superhero movie.

The standouts for me were the Hulk, Iron Man, and Loki. Loki was so much darker then he was in Thor. His appearance in Thor made you think that there was a small chance of redemption for him. But in the Avengers, there was no possibility of redemption for him. Loki is such a badass villian. In my my books, he is the best Marvel movie villain. He is the second baddest comic book movie villain, second only to the Late Heath Ledger's Joker. Tom Hiddleston is such a wonderful actor, and i hope to see more from him.

Robert Downey Jr was fantastic as usual as Tony Strark/Iron Man. His one liners are incredibly hilarious and his chemistry with Chris Evans was awesome. In my opinion, this is the best RDJ performance since the very first Iron Man movie. And his mocking of the way Thor spoke was absolutely hilarious.

And what can i say about Mark Ruffalo's performance as Bruce Banner/The Hulk? MARK NAILED IT! He brought more humanity to the character. It was almost similar to Bill Bixby's performance as Banner in the 60's tv show. And honestly, who didn't laugh when The Hulk tossed Loki around like a rag doll and muttered the words "Puny God"?


And while i wished he could have had more screen time in the film, Jeremy Renner was completely badass as Clint Barton/Hawkeye. He did the best that he could given the amount of screen time as Hawkeye. Scarlett Johansson was wonderful as Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow. And Samuel L. Jackson was at his best in this movie as Nick Fury. I thought it was great that we got to see more of S.H.I.E.L.D in this movie!!! I shed a few tears when Agent Coulson died.

Chris Evans as Steve Rodgers/Captain America and Chris Hemsworth as Thor were at their best. I loved the fact that they gave them each a
few hilarious lines. And, being a bit of a big How i Met your Mother fan, i absolutely loved Cobie Smulders as Maria Hill.

Overall, this is now my favorite movie of 2012 so far and i can't wait until the next Marvel movies comes out. I for one think its gonna be very hard
for the Dark Knight Rises to top the Avengers. But i definitely plan on seeing that movie too.

And to all those who have not yet seen the movie, stay until the end of the credits!!!!

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Loved that scene too. My favorite non-action scene in the movie, in fact. Great character building for her and one of the few times Loki goes from charmingly menacing to actually menacing. Her outsmarting him, I had no problem with. But I actually thought BW brought a lot to the movie. Now, Hawkeye on the other hand....

You don't like Hawkeye? I think for somone who was under the spell for half of the movie, he ended up becoming one of my favorites in The Avengers. Renner did an amazing job even though he was given the least amount of things to do.

[metaphysician]

Whose to say Loki didn't win? Or more precisely, why must it be either/or? It looked to me like Natasha was legitimately shaken by Loki's words. She just managed to put herself together, and discern at least part of his plan from it.

Or, I don't think the pain was fake. I think the calm, stoic demeanor at the end was the fake bit.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Raiden

You don't like Hawkeye? I think for somone who was under the spell for half of the movie, he ended up becoming one of my favorites in The Avengers. Renner did an amazing job even though he was given the least amount of things to do.

I liked Hawkeye, but I feel like he was wasted in the film. He gets a few brief moments to shine in the third act throwdown and I like his scene with BW after he turns back to normal, but more for the unspoken development for BW.

Renner's great. That's why, unlike others, if someone has to go for TA2, I hope it's not Hawkeye. I want him to actually be developed in the next movie.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

Of course. But from a personal experience, i've never been to the cinema and seen grown men and women gasping with excitement, laughing hysterically and coming out of the screen with big stupid grins slapped on their faces.

I have. This is not the first time, I assure you.

Originally Posted by BigThor

I see these threads are splitting into two different groups which are the "detractors" and the "satisfied fans". Now as with any film I have a few griped with The Avengers, but I'm starting to see the same posters complaining about the same things every day.

Of course everyone isn't going to be all "Yay, it was awesome", but I've seen some down right ridiculous nitpicking that made my face go O_o.

There are those against everything and those praising everything. And both groups repeating themselves.

Originally Posted by Raiden

I think with an opening as guargantuan as The Avengers got, it will be next-to-impossible for Hollywood not to notice, because it is really a copycat industry; we just have to count the number of Snow White movies out/coming out this year, for starter. The only bad thing that will come out of this is that Fox will definitely continue their death grip on all Marvel properties, seeing the kind of OW figure that TA has gotten. Now there are zero chances for them to let Marvel get FF and DD rights back.

I just don't want to see producers saying 'You know what the next Superman movie needs? Seven other superheroes, everyone talking like stand up comedians and 45 minutes of a final alien fight.'

Originally Posted by 50yroldfffan

I love how people who weren't even born at the time SW came out go on to tell those who were what it was like to be there and how the TA movie experiance doesn't compare.
Well news flash 200,000,000.++ opening weekend would beg to differ!
Yes SW was wonderful and unlike anything seen for it's time but if you follow movie history every decade you get a movie that shakes things up.
In the 50's it was The Day the Earth Stood Still" and "Forbidden Planet", the 60's "2001 Space Odyssey", the 70's "Star Wars" and "Aliens", the 80's "Blade Runner", the 90's "Matrix" then Spiderman, TDK and Iron man.
Well the sci-fi/super hero genre has taken another leap with "The Avengers" and those who can't recognize that are just blind!
It's true only time will tell of it's impact on the culture but the HULK SMASHING box office numbers and the already repeat viewers bodes well for a long lasting impact.

So it's all about money? We'd better pay a revision to Transformers 2. Everything told me it was awful but numbers don't lie.

[Gamma Goliath]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I liked Hawkeye, but I feel like he was wasted in the film. He gets a few brief moments to shine in the third act throwdown and I like his scene with BW after he turns back to normal, but more for the unspoken development for BW.

Renner's great. That's why, unlike others, if someone has to go for TA2, I hope it's not Hawkeye. I want him to actually be developed in the next movie.

I like the role hawkeye was given in this, but since cap in his sequel will still be with shield, I hope we can see hawkeye as a supporting character so we can see more of him, and it'd help develop the friendship between barton and rogers as men.

[jnmx2000]

just saw this today.

7/10

It was good but not great. I think it's a bit better than most of marvels films but just a notch below Thor. The thing that really makes this a on par film and not a game changer for me is the sound/score. Sound and score ultimately makes or breaks a film for me and this one didn't do anything for me. I'm quite shocked that Alan Silvestri turned in such a generic score for this, really a shame. A few little touches here and there would have taken this from a good film to an EPIC film, but it lacks. Visually and story wise, it's awesome, but it's missing one key component to really set it apart. I liked it, didn't love it, wish I did, but it's worth it to see and I might see it again some day, just left the theater feeling kind of empty about it.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm avoiding Webb's TASM for a whole different slew of reasons.

If I wasn't a Lizard fan, I'd be avoiding that too. My love for the character (even if they completely botched the design) will guarantee I'm there. But I'm not expecting a masterpiece from that movie.

[Nokio]

Originally Posted by Raiden

I think BW thought she won the interrogation, just like she did for countless other interrogation, but judging from the end results it seems obvious to me that Loki probably made her believe she did (but actually didn't). And having her in the same room with everyone actually created a tensed environment that sped up Banner's progress to Hulk out, so I think Loki was the winner, not BW.

No no no. She actually did win. Loki plan was in motion and she didn't expect or know that Hawkeye and his team was gonna attack.

[iJackSparrow]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

If I wasn't a Lizard fan, I'd be avoiding that too. My love for the character (even if they completely botched the design) will guarantee I'm there. But I'm not expecting a masterpiece from that movie.

I love Spider-Man too much to no root for him. It's the movie I've been rooting the most this year. I want Webb to succeed so bad, I just hope I can stand behind this movie.

If the story is actually good, it'll do good at boxoffice, generate WOM and while not as big as The Avengers, it can guarantee a sequel. I don't know, I'm just hoping it's good.

Originally Posted by Nokio

No no no. She actually did win. Loki plan was in motion and she didn't expect or know that Hawkeye and his team was gonna attack.

Exactly, and that's completely in character for her. One of the most bad ass moments in the movie imo.

[Hawkingbird]

Why is it that on Avengers threads we always go off subject :')?

[50yroldfffan]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

I have. This is not the first time, I assure you.





There are those against everything and those praising everything. And both groups repeating themselves.





I just don't want to see producers saying 'You know what the next Superman movie needs? Seven other superheroes, everyone talking like stand up comedians and 45 minutes of a final alien fight.'






So it's all about money? We'd better pay a revision to Transformers 2. Everything told me it was awful but numbers don't lie.

Where did I say it's all about money? Read into what I said a little deeper! The money is a result of planning and hard work and you can be sure SW wasn't made to loose money no movie is! lol
Oh! and Transfomers 2 did suck. :-)

[50yroldfffan]

Originally Posted by Majik1387

Wizard of Oz was an event film.

The Wizard of Oz was not an event film at the time it came out. It was considered a flop. Not until it started showing up on tv every year did it become the loved movie it is today.

[50yroldfffan]

Originally Posted by danoyse

And so was Gone With the Wind. And ET. Hell, beach attendance reportedly dropped the summer Jaws was released.

You're right about the beach. Hell! we were scared to go into the pool.

[JeetKuneDo]

Originally Posted by Matt

Exactly, the interrogation ultimately led to nothing so why not just let Loki have the win? Have him shake the unshakable member of the team. Makes him that much more threatening going into the climax. Not only did he destroy their base, he owns them mentally.

Metaphysician says what I was going to say.

Originally Posted by metaphysician

Whose to say Loki didn't win? Or more precisely, why must it be either/or? It looked to me like Natasha was legitimately shaken by Loki's words. She just managed to put herself together, and discern at least part of his plan from it.

Or, I don't think the pain was fake. I think the calm, stoic demeanor at the end was the fake bit.

The bolded was my impression. I think BW was so shaken up by the Hulk because Loki had already punched a little hole in her mental armor. (That's kinda what he was doing to everyone) And even more compelling to me was later when she again brought up the "red on my ledger"....it was really bothering her.

She did get her "moment"...but I like that there was more to it than that.

Originally Posted by 50yroldfffan

The Wizard of Oz was not an event film at the time it came out. It was considered a flop. Not until it started showing up on tv every year did it become the loved movie it is today.

Very true. Similar to other movies that built into classics over time like It's a Wonderful Life, Bringing Up Baby, and Duck Soup.

[Majik1387]

Originally Posted by 50yroldfffan

The Wizard of Oz was not an event film at the time it came out. It was considered a flop. Not until it started showing up on tv every year did it become the loved movie it is today.

It was one of the first adaptations ever made, the amount of hype it had at the time totally counts it as an event film.