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View Poll Results: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?
They are too dark & depressing, need to lighten up a little 15 20.27%
The dark mood is highly concentrated, I could barely feel the fun 9 12.16%
Batman Begins has some fun, but the Dark Knight is too dark and depressing 5 6.76%
They both had some fun notable moments, more fun would change the experience a lot 45 60.81%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:26 AM   #151
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ View Post
Subtext is just that, subtextual. Part of having good subtext is that it is subtle. Actually it's that subtlety that makes films intelligent. Your friends who all think American Psycho, The Dark Knight (and actual much of what comic book companies produce) and The Matrix have very highbrow themes but they don't discuss them or display them intelligently. It's the restrictions of the medium to an extent. An action hero who goes around causing wanton destruction and going on self-assigned missions like a sociopath makes it hard to make any of these movies subtle or intelligent.

To use an action movie example of good subtext look no further than my example of Predator. The gay relationship between Mac and Blaine. No one really knows if it's 100% true or not, because they don't hit you over the head with it. You could, and probably have, watched the movie dozens of times without so much as noticing it -- I did. When you look for it though it's there. "He was my...uh...friend" (Schwarzenegger gives a perplexed look"). The speech over his comrades dead body.

Another good example is Apocalypse Now! is really a loose adaption of Dante's Inferno where each stop down the river seems to represent a different mortal sin, culminating in a visit to Satan himself.

With The Dark Knight or even The Matrix there is hardly anymore than one reading of what those themes are. They spell it out for you. You'd have to be dumb, deaf and blind to miss them. That's not really intelligent, it's pop-intelligent. It's like someone who goes around using words like Plebeian to sound cool, but only sounds lame in the process because it only serves to highlight that he doesn't understand how regular people interact. They're what Sheldon serves to make light of on Big Bang Theory; the notion that overt preachiness is the best way to make an impact. No! You want to make your point emotionally. Nolan fails consistently to do that. His movies are long round table discussions, without much humanity in them. The biggest problem with those kinds of movies is devoid of action they would seem like awkward and stiff fan fiction. The action really serves to quicken the pace ultimately killed by exposition. What people get wrapped up in on The Dark Knight is how smart it appears, not how smart it is. Any C student philosophy major could break down for you all the "intelligent" problems with The Dark Knight. Movies like that though run at a pace that kills the need to think.

Like many have said, that movie is romanticised. It sounds all well and good, but it's a rubbish commentary on actual reality.
Sorry but I didn't notice a homosexual relationship in Predator. If the director was hinting at this then he should have made it more clear. Call me dense but in the end, them having some homosexual relationship did absolutely NOTHING for the story so why bother ? Ooh I know ! to give the characters 'depth' but it's useless, it serves no purpose other than for people to say "look how smart I am, I noticed something SOOO subtle"

You call it the 'dumbing down' of batman by Nolan, I call it being clear and cutting the BS.

You make it sound as if so long as a film has all these subtleties you love it's automatically a good film but it's not.

Who enjoyed Predator because of all this hidden subtext you claim is there ? I enjoyed it because it was just a thrillride and kept you on the edge of your seat, does that make me dumb ? no, you can see in these films what you want to see. Same with Nolans Batman, you think he's whacking you over the head with his themes, other people see stuff in them that you probably haven't even thought of or noticed.

In the end people will be talking about how creepy and weird it was that Joker had all these different stories about his origin, how that made him even more dangerous, (hammered in) and not about Mac and Blaines supposed homosexuality (extremely subtle)

Se7en, that film was as unsubtle as it gets, but I still think it was an intelligent film. JUST being subtle does NOT make an intelligent film.
You lead me to believe Predator is one of the smartest films out there just because it has all this supposed subtext. But how is it remembered ? Schwarzenegger kicking ass in the jungle, it's elitist to look down on people who enjoy it for just that.

Now I haven't seen Predator in a while but I'll be sure to check it out this weekend.


Last edited by Ultra Nolanite; 05-08-2012 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:29 AM   #152
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex View Post
No, not you. Plenty of non-fans have stated their displeasures over Nolan's style as being too 'Kubrick-like', and it doesn't fit the character [Batman] and his universe.
I see. I can see Nolan being like Kubrick in certain respects, but not really in a visual sense. In that respect I think Fincher and Kubrick are more alike, although Kubrick did more evocative things with the camera imo.

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:29 AM   #153
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
I've made my points perfectly clear.

Let's not resort to childish insults. It doesn't prove your own maturity or strengthen your argument.

Quite the opposite actually.
No, you haven't.

Well, your responses haven't inspired confidence that you can carry a conversation like an adult. You claimed that 'realism' doesn't work well for comic book characters, and yet Nolan's Batman and Singer's X-Men have proved you wrong. You then go on to say that these CBMs missed to captialize on grand opportunities (you never listed these 'opportunities').

A few posts later, you stated that you would love for Fincher to take a shot at Batman. So, in more ways than one, your retort about 'realism' is thrown out the window if it's Fincher involved?

Surely you can see why I'm questioning your logic.

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Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:29 AM   #154
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by CConn View Post
It depends on the comic itself.

Sin City was never meant to be at all realistic and would never work as a realistic, well, anything.

Batman and Daredevil, however, has tons of stories that have a very realistic tone and setting. I mean, Batman even had a spill off series that was essentially just Law and Order with super powers in Gotham Central.
But Sin City could be realistic it just wouldn't have the same artistic opportunities to explore the characters and themes fully.

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #155
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN View Post
I see. I can see Nolan being like Kubrick in certain respects, but not really in a visual sense. In that respect I think Fincher and Kubrick are more alike, although Kubrick does more evocative things with the camera imo.
It's exactly why I scuff at these criticisms. I don't think fans know what Kubrick offered if they are criticizing Nolan as too 'Kubrick-like'.

Believe it or not, that was one of the criticisms for the new TDKR trailer (regarding the camera work).

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:41 AM   #156
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Se7en made a great setting for Batman because of its heavy atmosphere that doesn't mean Clayface or Robin couldn't exist there.

It's just a setting. It doesn't restrict the fictional elements.
Except Fincher is quite similar to Nolan in his approach to his films too. If you honestly believe that Fincher would feature Clayface or Killer Croc in his Batman movies, then you're mistaken.

Aronofsky, on the other hand, is more likely to feature supernatural villains.

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Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:50 AM   #157
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN View Post
There is less shallow depth in his bat-films, especially the action sequences with Imax. But it's there, you can see it in the new trailer. It something he likes.
I still don't comprehend what you're referring to when you say that Nolan's films contain 'shallow depth' (in terms of action set-pieces).

The new trailer features nothing shallow, in my opinion. The action sequences look great thus far.

__________________
Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:50 AM   #158
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex View Post
It's exactly why I scuff at these criticisms. I don't think fans know what Kubrick offered if they are criticizing Nolan as too 'Kubrick-like'.

Believe it or not, that was one of the criticisms for the new TDKR trailer (regarding the camera work).
I think anybody can compare certain elements of one director to another if they are looking for it. And perhaps the scope of IMAX evoked Kubrick for some people. But in general I think the styles are different. Kubrick utilized deep focus much more then Nolan and because of it held he on shots longer and they contained more information..

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:56 AM   #159
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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I think anybody can compare certain elements of one director to another if they are looking for it. And perhaps the scope of IMAX evoked Kubrick for some people. But in general I think the styles are different. Kubrick utilized deep focus much more then Nolan and because of it held on shots longer.
No argument here. While Kubrick and Nolan share some attributes as directors, I don't see how Nolan is channeling Kubrick in his work. I believe fans and non-fans are too quick to compare styles simply because of a few similarities.

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Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

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(Move on over Tom Hardy)


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:57 AM   #160
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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But Sin City could be realistic it just wouldn't have the same artistic opportunities to explore the characters and themes fully.
But that's not the point.

There aren't any "realistic" Sin City comics. It's a singular comic series with a singular creative vision and tone.

Batman, however, has had dozens of creative visions and tones, and a fair share of them have been quite realistic and grounded.

To say that all comic book movies should be "comic book colorful" (and by that I just mean, well, like The Avengers movie is), is just as closed minded and creatively stifling as it is to say all comic book movies should be "realistic".

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Old 05-08-2012, 01:59 AM   #161
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex View Post
I still don't comprehend what you're referring to when you say that Nolan's films contain 'shallow depth' (in terms of action set-pieces).

The new trailer features nothing shallow, in my opinion. The action sequences look great thus far.
I mean shallow focus as opposed to deep focus. The actors in the foreground are in focus but the detail of the background is diffused, blurred. Less visual information in the frame as a result. Or less specific visual information. In Deep Focus the foreground is in focus as well as elements in the background, giving you more visual information.

I'm a huge fan of deep focus so I may notice or be bothered by shallow focus more. And shallow focus does seem to be becoming much more prevelent in Hollywood.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:01 AM   #162
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

One year ago people were complaining that TDK has ruined the comic book movies as all cbms are expected to follow dark and realistic approach that Nolan had taken, the same people are now demanding that every movie should look like Avengers ?

pfft, Double standards.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:01 AM   #163
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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but that's not the point.

There aren't any "realistic" sin city comics. It's a singular comic series with a singular creative vision and tone.

Batman, however, has had dozens of creative visions and tones, and a fair share of them have been quite realistic and grounded.

To say that all comic book movies should be "comic book colorful" (and by that i just mean, well, like the avengers movie is), is just as closed minded and creatively stifling as it is to say all comic book movies should be "realistic".
Thank you !!!

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:05 AM   #164
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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No, you haven't.

Well, your responses haven't inspired confidence that you can carry a conversation like an adult. You claimed that 'realism' doesn't work well for comic book characters, and yet Nolan's Batman and Singer's X-Men have proved you wrong. You then go on to say that these CBMs missed to captialize on grand opportunities (you never listed these 'opportunities').

Don't try to talk down to me. Your insults show no more maturity than my alleged inconsistencies.

and your reasons for attacking me are just ridiculous. I can't question Nolan's approach because it's popular? What? Because I didn't list the storytelling opportunities lost with realism I'm not worthy of respect or adult conversation? What are you talking about?

Quote:
A few posts later, you stated that you would love for Fincher to take a shot at Batman. So, in more ways than one, your retort about 'realism' is thrown out the window if it's Fincher involved?

Surely you can see why I'm questioning your logic.
I said Se7en was a good setting for Batman.

So what? It's just a setting, anything can take place there.

Again, you have no justification for making disrespectful remarks. Stop pretending like I gave you no choice. You had a choice and you chose to be rude and condescending.

Snobbery like this is why Nolan fanboys get a poor rep.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:07 AM   #165
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Except Fincher is quite similar to Nolan in his approach to his films too. If you honestly believe that Fincher would feature Clayface or Killer Croc in his Batman movies, then you're mistaken.

Aronofsky, on the other hand, is more likely to feature supernatural villains.
You have no idea what Fincher would do with Batman.

None.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:08 AM   #166
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN View Post
I mean shallow focus as opposed to deep focus. The actors in the foreground are in focus but the detail of the background is diffused, blurred. Less visual information in the frame as a result. Or less specific visual information. In Deep Focus the foreground is in focus as well as elements in the background, giving you more visual information.

I'm a huge fan of deep focus so I may notice or be bothered by shallow focus more. And shallow focus does seem to be becoming much more prevelent in Hollywood.
Ahh, okay. I understood your background comment a page back but I thought you were voicing a negative opinion on Nolan's ability (lack thereof) to make an action sequence suspenseful and thrilling.

Fair enough.

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Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

Henry Cavill: The Ultimate Man-Crush
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:16 AM   #167
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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But that's not the point.

There aren't any "realistic" Sin City comics. It's a singular comic series with a singular creative vision and tone.

Batman, however, has had dozens of creative visions and tones, and a fair share of them have been quite realistic and grounded.

To say that all comic book movies should be "comic book colorful" (and by that I just mean, well, like The Avengers movie is), is just as closed minded and creatively stifling as it is to say all comic book movies should be "realistic".
It doesn't matter what has or hasn't been done.

You can't accomplish something like Sin City if you are limited to realism. This is just an example of how realism can limit storytelling.

I didn't say I wanted a colorful Batman film. I prefer it be dark and bleak. But a Batman movie should be free to explore imaginative elements if it serves the theme and characters.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:18 AM   #168
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Ahh, okay. I understood your background comment a page back but I thought you were voicing a negative opinion on Nolan's ability (lack thereof) to make an action sequence suspenseful and thrilling.

Fair enough.
Not at all, just asthetic differences. And Nolan himself is making this choice (he and Pfister), so it's obviously something he likes. I just prefer the visual scope of deep focus because of it's richness in ideas and information. If done well.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:20 AM   #169
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Don't try to talk down to me. Your insults show no more maturity than my alleged inconsistencies.

and your reasons for attacking me are just ridiculous. I can't question Nolan's approach because it's popular? What? Because I didn't list the storytelling opportunities lost with realism I'm not worthy of respect or adult conversation? What are you talking about?
Not once did I state that you could not question Nolan's approach, but your logic makes no sense. It's almost asinine. So you have to excuse me from calling you out on this silly claim that 'realism' doesn't mesh well with comic book properties when you've been proven wrong several times already.

Quote:
I said Se7en was a good setting for Batman.

So what? It's just a setting, anything can take place there.

Again, you have no justification for making disrespectful remarks. Stop pretending like I gave you no choice. You had a choice and you chose to be rude and condescending.

Snobbery like this is why Nolan fanboys get a poor rep.
A Se7en setting could still be considered 'realistic', so your failures to explain your so called 'fantasy' have not offered anything substantial. All you've done so far is appear contradictive to 'realism'.

There was no 'snobbery', just frustration with your poorly constructed debate point.

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You have no idea what Fincher would do with Batman.


None.
And neither do you.

Going by Fincher's resume, his body of work is indeed 'grounded'.

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Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

Henry Cavill: The Ultimate Man-Crush
(Move on over Tom Hardy)


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:29 AM   #170
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN View Post
Not at all, just asthetic differences. And Nolan himself is making this choice (he and Pfister), so it's obviously something he likes. I just prefer the visual scope of deep focus because of it's richness in ideas and information. If done well.
I have no problem with your preference. It's reasonable.

It certainly has to do something with Nolan and Pfister. It's been done on purpose, not by accident. I could try to speculate but there might be numerous reasons on why Nolan and Pfister chose to blur the background.

Oh well.

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Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

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(Move on over Tom Hardy)


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:38 AM   #171
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
One year ago people were complaining that TDK has ruined the comic book movies as all cbms are expected to follow dark and realistic approach that Nolan had taken, the same people are now demanding that every movie should look like Avengers ?
Guess they love more fantasy elements in CBM

I like that quote in your signature

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:44 AM   #172
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Not once did I state that you could not question Nolan's approach, but your logic makes no sense. It's almost asinine. So you have to excuse me from calling you out on this silly claim that 'realism' doesn't mesh well with comic book properties when you've been proven wrong several times already.
It's your opinion that my points are silly or that realism is the superior alternative based on recent popularity.

So you can just stop your personal assault.

Your OPINIONS are not proven and you can't justify derogatory language so just stop.

Quote:
A Se7en setting could still be considered 'realistic', so your failures to explain your so called 'fantasy' have not offered anything substantial. All you've done so far is appear contradictive to 'realism'.

There was no 'snobbery', just frustration with your poorly constructed debate point.
It wasn't even a debate point. I was agreeing with someone that Fincher created a good setting for Batman.

It's okay to be frustrated, but lashing out with condescending remarks is something snobs do compulsively.

Quote:
And neither do you.

Going by Fincher's resume, his body of work is indeed 'grounded'.
I said I like his settings, I didn't claim I knew which characters he would or wouldn't use. You did.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:46 AM   #173
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Aziz View Post
Guess they love more fantasy elements in CBM

I like that quote in your signature
Eh, Batman is not 'fun' and 'colorful', in my opinion. Even B:TAS had several incredibly dark moments (moments that wouldn't be shown on-the-air nowadays).

The last time 'fun' and 'colorful' were utilized in Batman movies, we ended up with Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

No thank you. Batman is a dark and brooding character, he should stay that way. I welcome a more fantastical Batman adaptation but it should not be 'fun'.

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Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
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Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
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Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:50 AM   #174
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

And I don't say that Nolan is the only one that does it. This is much more common today in many films. But Nolan does it in a more stylized way I feel.

Even if you look at the Avengers or new Spidey trailer you see some blurred backgrounds, but they are different then Nolan's. They seem more natural somehow. Nolan's seems more like a stylized effect to me somehow and he uses it more. I don't know the reason, would be interesting to know. And Webb's style again is different then Nolan's, more akin to Fincher in the way he uses the frame. But then his camera style is different.

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Last edited by SoNicRaDiATioN; 05-08-2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:04 AM   #175
DoomsdayApex
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Default Re: Nolan's Batman, drained of fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
It's your opinion that my points are silly or that realism is the superior alternative based on recent popularity.

So you can just stop your personal assault.

Your OPINIONS are not proven and you can't justify derogatory language so just stop.
No, no one format is superior or inferior. Now, it may be your 'opinion' but it has been proven wrong. If it weren't, then Singer's X-Men and Nolan's Batman would have flopped at the box office and been panned by the critics.

Last time I checked, both franchises exceeded expectations and are considered to be some of the greatest CBMs of all time.

Quote:
It wasn't even a debate point. I was agreeing with someone that Fincher created a good setting for Batman.

It's okay to be frustrated, but lashing out with condescending remarks is something snobs do compulsively.
I'm all up for Fincher making a Batman movie but his approach wouldn't differ from Nolan's too much, in my opinion.

I apologize but you were being beyond inconsistent before by giving me 'Jedi Mind Tricks' answers.

Quote:
I said I like his settings, I didn't claim I knew which characters he would or wouldn't use. You did.
I know I did. It's not farfetched to think that Fincher would create a 'grounded' Batman film even with a villain like Mr. Freeze just by taking a glimpse at his resume.

I don't see Fincher making an Arkham City-esque adaptation. Other than Alien 3, he hasn't explored anything that fantastical since.

__________________
Law is an instrument of commerce and often an obstruction to justice. It is a Court of Law, NOT of Justice.

Henry Cavill: The Ultimate Man-Crush
(Move on over Tom Hardy)


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Oldman: "Wow, this is it."


Nolan: [facetiously] "Yeah. [pause] Unless you want to whore your ass out for a load of money for ‘Batman 4."
Quote:
Nolan: "I've gotta pee. It's a two pee movie. I need to make a shorter movie next time."
Quote:

Nolan: "Oh, it's on. Here Emma, hold my vest."
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