Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 3

[Monsieur Xavier]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

You can't betray and behead your mentor, and murder two children (regardless of who they are) and redeem yourself.

Same thing goes for Jaime. You can only go so far before you go beyond the point of redemption.

As far as I'm concerned Jamie can/could redeem himself even after what he did ( to the Stark boy ), he is smart and don't act like a fool, Theon on the other hand is a tool and don't deserve to be redeemed.

[Thundercrack85]

The way he killed his loser cousin was just wrong. Guy's a psychopath. Granted, so are most characters.

[Monsieur Xavier]

^^
It was fitting, "medieval" times aren't sweet and kind, he isn't short on cousins it seems and he did it for a legitimate reason ( escaping ).
I don't see what he did worst than Ned Stark beheaded a ranger who fled from the White Walkers.

[Spidey-Bat]

Originally Posted by Monsieur Xavier

^^
It was fitting, "medieval" times aren't sweet and kind, he isn't short on cousins it seems and he did it for a legitimate reason ( escaping ).
I don't see what he did worst than Ned Stark beheaded a ranger who fled from the White Walkers.

Bludgeoning someone to death is definitely worse than a quick beheading. Not to mention Ned was acting in accordance with the law. Jaime doing it to escape is not a legitimate reason.

What they should have done was have the cousin do something else to help him escape and kill Torrhen Karstark. Then they can make it closer to the book and have Rickard Karstark kill Alton Lannister rather than the 2 Lannister squires for what Cat letting Jaime go in exchange for the girls

[Thundercrack85]

It's not like he wouldn't have gone along with any plan Jaime could have proposed. Really, Jaime is a despicable character all around. If he has any redeeming qualities, we have yet to see them. But killing his own cousin, that's a new low. And this is a guy who pushed a kid out of a window to not be caught having relations with his sister.

[Monsieur Xavier]

@ Spider-Bat
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi : it is a matter of point of view.
Killing is part of the settings and the protagonistes do it with ease them being the "good" or the "bad" guys.
How Jamie killed his cousin is of no importance ( to me at least ), he used the tool at his disposal ( not sure if it is the proper word for what I mean ).

Note : I don't know the books.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Except, viewers wind up not believing his story and viewing it with suspect as simply a ploy as part of his escape plan.


I think these complaints are simply part of the overall issue of trying to remain faithful to the books as a TV series since the two mediums are two very different beasts (more so, compared to books vs movies). The show could have (and probably should have) simply done its own thing instead of trying to remain as faithful as possible to the events of the books since pacing issues (e.g. formerly central characters being absent for long periods of time, audience's recollection of specific detail/character back story) and actors leaving (e.g. all the named Dothraki in the show have been killed off even though a number of them are still alive in the books) force the creators to change things anyway.

I don't see how. The scene is completely made up for the show based on Jaime's own innerthoughts and musings and making up Jaime killing his cousin. I'm not sure I understand you're complaint. The show is taking more and more liberties with each episode while trying to stay faithful to the spirit and overarching plot of the books. If the show just did "its own thing" entirely--as in ignore the plots of the book--it makes adapting the series kind of moot because what makes it stand out is its twisty, convoluted plot that has curveballs thrown often. The series wants that intricate story and game-changing plots every few weeks. Otherwise, it loses what makes it an original show.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

It's not like he wouldn't have gone along with any plan Jaime could have proposed. Really, Jaime is a despicable character all around. If he has any redeeming qualities, we have yet to see them. But killing his own cousin, that's a new low. And this is a guy who pushed a kid out of a window to not be caught having relations with his sister.

I agree him killing a cousin is a new low and one I don't think he would have steeped to in the books. However, he attempted to kill Bran because if he didn't he'd die, his sister would die, and their three children would die. If Ned knew killing someone would save the lives of his children would he hesitate? PRobably so. But that's why Ned is dead and Jaime is alive. Jaime is very much the tragic hero of the series.

[Spidey-Bat]

Originally Posted by Monsieur Xavier

@ Spider-Bat
To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi : it is a matter of point of view.
Killing is part of the settings and the protagonistes do it with ease them being the "good" or the "bad" guys.
How Jamie killed his cousin is of no importance ( to me at least ), he used the tool at his disposal ( not sure if it is the proper word for what I mean ).

Note : I don't know the books.

Ned killed the man who saw the White Walkers because he was man of the Night's Watch and deserted. The punishment for a deserter is death, Ned was carrying out the law. He took no pleasure in killing him, he was simply doing his responsibility as Warden of the North. Jaime committed murder, of his own kin, in an attempt to escape prison. You really can't defend what Jaime did nor can you compare it to Ned.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I agree him killing a cousin is a new low and one I don't think he would have steeped to in the books. However, he attempted to kill Bran because if he didn't he'd die, his sister would die, and their three children would die. If Ned knew killing someone would save the lives of his children would he hesitate? PRobably so. But that's why Ned is dead and Jaime is alive. Jaime is very much the tragic hero of the series.

That hero part must come in later.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by ChickenScratch

Simplifying it for a TV audience just turns it into Merlin on the Sci-fi channel. The brutality and the interconnectedness of it is what makes it great, as is the huge cast and the paceing.

Deviating from the books does not mean simplification; as evidenced by the many intricately plotted TV series out there throughout history. What it does mean is that the creators get the freedom to ensure that the plot, pace and characters can be worked within the confines and limitations of the real world (e.g. an actor leaving the show does not force them to have to recast his character and settle for a less-than-ideal replacement, as in the case of Gregor Clegane's new actor being nowhere as physically intimidating as the original and thus a painfully obvious recast).

Bear in mind that GRRM has a background writing for television and chose to focus on books (specifically in the case of A Song of Ice and Fire) in order to tell stories that simply couldn't be told through the television medium (check his A Song of Ice and Fire's Wikipedia article for citations (16, 17)). In other words, by the author's own admission, the book series is not designed or structured to be amenable for TV adaptation.

Originally Posted by ChickenScratch

The pace seems slow at time because GRRM is throwing everyone huge hints and misdirects all the time while telling a linear story that takes years to unfold.

Which brings another problem. TV, unlike books especially those written by GRRM, are limited by time and so bound by the Law of Conservation of Detail. Every detail should be meaningful and important. TV shows simply don't have the luxury to tell stories in that way.

Another issue is in how the story is told. Unlike books, we can't get into the heads of the viewpoint characters. Every thought and speculation must be verbalised (leading to lots of talking scenes with little to no action). Foreshadowing and minor-but-important-in-the-future elements can be mentioned in passing in books since as long as we've read it, we retain it for future recollection. Not so in TV shows where these elements need to be focused on by the camera in order for the viewer to see/notice it for future recollection. Minor, background features aren't retained.

[Spidey-Bat]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

That hero part must come in later.

There's one thing he did and one thing he will do that make him heroic.

[Monsieur Xavier]

Originally Posted by Spidey-Bat

Ned killed the man who saw the White Walkers because he was man of the Night's Watch and deserted. The punishment for a deserter is death, Ned was carrying out the law. He took no pleasure in killing him, he was simply doing his responsibility as Warden of the North. Jaime committed murder, of his own kin, in an attempt to escape prison. You really can't defend what Jaime did nor can you compare it to Ned.

As I understood it, the ranger didn't deserted but fled from the WW and maybe warn the people.
Anyway, it wasn't a straight comparison of the two characters just my point of view on the "killings".

What can I say, I have a thing for well done not-so-good character like Jamie.

[Thundercrack85]

The whole Night's Watch thing is pretty silly. Just sitting there, waiting for something to happen. But, I assume once the bogeymen beyond the wall finally do make their move (probably circa season 11 at this rate), they'll finally get to do something.

It wouldn't hurt for them to remind us that there is a threat beyond the Wall by showing one.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I don't see how. The scene is completely made up for the show based on Jaime's own innerthoughts and musings and making up Jaime killing his cousin. I'm not sure I understand you're complaint. The show is taking more and more liberties with each episode while trying to stay faithful to the spirt and overarching plot of the books. If the show just did "its own thing" entirely--as in ignore the plots of the book--it makes adapting the series kind of moot because what makes it stand out is its twisty, convoluted plot that has curveballs thrown often. The series wants that intricate story and game-changing plots every few weeks. Otherwise, it loses what makes it an original show.

Not to be rude but I disagree with Game of Thrones being an 'original show' in any sense of the phrase. It's a TV adaptation (moreover, it's one that sticks close to the source material) and thus by its very definition, a copy. Moreover, the show is often described as The Sopranos set in Middle Earth. Yes, it's a novel combination but not an original concept. It simply borrows from multiple sources.

Back to your question about why adapt and deviate. The benefit of this is that you gain the world-building, politics and history of the setting; plus the characters as how they first started out. Reinterpreting and deviating from the source provide people with something fresh and new, unpredictable twists, while still remaining familiar.

It is worth mentioning that every successful TV adaptation to date has taken this approach of deviating from the original source material. Sticking to the source material presents logistical issues, make it less enticing for higher caliber writers (who'd rather tell their own stories than someone else's) and makes one's twists and reveals fall flat since anyone who wants to find out what happens next can easily do so online. All this on top of the aforementioned scripting issues. Meanwhile, I can't think of any upsides of restricting oneself in this way. In other words, from a developmental standpoint, there's no benefit to sticking closely to the source material instead of picking and choosing what you want to use.

[Oberon sexton]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

The whole Night's Watch thing is pretty silly. Just sitting there, waiting for something to happen. But, I assume once the bogeymen beyond the wall finally do make their move (probably circa season 11 at this rate), they'll finally get to do something.

It wouldn't hurt for them to remind us that there is a threat beyond the Wall by showing one.

Well there's also the constant threat of the Wildlings and now Mance Rayder, who's army is larger than that of any of the oF the southron kings. The Nights Watch is all that stands between them and the seven kingdoms.

[FVD]

Plus the Siege on the Wall featuring the Mammoths and Giants coming possibly Season 3 or 4 is going to be epic!!

Now the next Season will definitely have to introduce Ser Brynden Tully the Blackfish plus Catelyn's brother Edmure especially seeing as Edmure will eventually be held captive by the Freys plus they are from what I know so far to be the only current Tullys still among the land of the living. And I'm guessing there may probably be some more focus on the Tullys next Season not to mention Hoster Tully - Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure's father/Blackfish's brother dying. And I do wonder if we'll ever learn of this girl that Hoster talks about in his dementia.

Already anticipating how bonechilling the lead up to the Red Wedding is going to be!!!!

[Jordacar]

Originally Posted by Spidey-Bat

There's one thing he did and one thing he will do that make him heroic.

I find it fascinating how Jaime lost many illusions about heroism and loyalty when he served the Mad King. The way he sees it, everyone follows their own moral code (he just has the clarity to admit it), and if you don't, you might as well be a slave. It's not all that different from Ygritte's needling of Jon about his blind loyalty to the Watch.

He strikes me as a guy who's struggling to find his place in the world, whether he knows it or not. But Jaime's not a cowardly wimp like Theon; he's shown himself to be quite capable of great deeds. When he's not boning his sister of course.

[Thundercrack85]

In the course of the show, he's done very little though. Essentially, he had sex with his sister, pushed Bran out a window, had sex with his sister, walked around scowling, had sex with his sister, killed some of Ned's men, then (presumably after having sex with his sister again)... went off, got caught by Robb... Oh and now he's gone and killed his cousin.

Oh, and there's that scene where his father lectures him. Awesome character so far.

[Avenger]

Just keep watching.

[Bruce Malone]

So do you think all the daenary's fan girls/boys from last season have jumped ship yet? I'd say last season she was up there with tyrion and ned in fan popularity but after this season so far i don't know.

[Golgo-13]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

You can't betray and behead your mentor, and murder two children (regardless of who they are) and redeem yourself.

Same thing goes for Jaime. You can only go so far before you go beyond the point of redemption.

Tell that to SW fans in reference Darth Vader.

[Buford The Sly]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

The whole Night's Watch thing is pretty silly. Just sitting there, waiting for something to happen. But, I assume once the bogeymen beyond the wall finally do make their move (probably circa season 11 at this rate), they'll finally get to do something.

It wouldn't hurt for them to remind us that there is a threat beyond the Wall by showing one.

The 'boogeymen'

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

are closer than you think. And they have their own army of dead things.

[RockSP]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

The whole Night's Watch thing is pretty silly.

The "you can't get any *****" part definitely is.

[ChickenScratch]

A lot of hate for Jamie here huh? I find it funny that with all this vitriol and venom Jamie really is the White Knight of the series quite literally. I mentioned it last season that they seemed to be trying to keep him out of the white and rather have him in creams and browns.

He grew up like any young squire. He became a knight in the godswood, served with honor and overthrew a mad king (after all, that's what an honorable white knight would do). At this point in the story it's hard to see Jamie as the hero but I see him like I see Ned, Jon, Robb, Selamy, Donarion, etc. Funny thing about the greatest knights like those dudes I mentioned though, in their road to honor they do some less than noble things.

I am operating from a POV of standing on the complete other end of the series looking back at this specific point.