2011/2012 NBA Thread: Greatness & Awesomeness

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by Matt

I agree, especially with the bolded part. What is funny is, the media doesn't know what they want LeBron to be.

Sometimes they want him to be the next Jordan despite the fact that the Jordan ship has long since sailed. As great as Jordan was on the court, his image was equally great. The Decision and every move LeBron has made since has destroyed any chance of him being the next Jordan.

Other times it seems like the media wants him to be the Ryan Leaf of basketball with a little of Barkley's personality (but none of his redeeming qualities) thrown in.

They seem to change what narrative they want for LeBron at the drop of a dime. Following the Knicks series and the MVP Award, they were pushing the Jordan angle. Following his loss in the finals last year (and now) they were pushing the Ryan Leaf angle.

That isn't to say LeBron is purely being victimized by the big bad media. His attitude and actions certainly do not help his case. In fact, his attitude and actions are what allows the media to define him.

But the fact is, media aside, the reality is somewhere in the middle. LeBron is probably the Brett Favre of basketball. He is top ten all time at his position, maybe even top five. But he is neither as great as his defenders paint him (Favre's defenders will say he is up there with Montana, Bradshaw and Brady) or as bad as the critics say (Favre's critics will claim he is one of the worst big names ever, but despite his post-Green Bay years, he isn't that either).

LeBron is not as good as the likes of Jordan, Kobe or even Wade. At the same time, he is far from the Ryan Leaf of basketball. He is a great player who has some serious gaps in his game (much like Favre did with his interception count) and issues with pressure in the big games.

Absolutely (and being a Packer fan I concur with the Favre comparison)

But the even better comparison I've been making for years is with Peyton Manning. Lebron is the exact same guy.

[Matt]

It is an apt comparison except the media never gives their poster boy Peyton a hard time about anything.

[Scrandy Randy]

I think LeBron will end up being better then Wade but not Jordan or Kobe.

[Daniel Thompson]

76ers have to come out strong in the second half. Boston playing hard tonight.

[Nightmare]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

I think LeBron will end up being better then Wade but not Jordan or Kobe.

I think he's already better than Wade ever was.

[ComicChick]

how bout them Celtics? looking good tonight

i want a Boston/OKC finals

[Nightmare]

I want a boston/Lakers finals

[Doc Samson]

I want a San Antonio/Indiana finals, just for the conspiracy theorists

[Daniel Thompson]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

I think LeBron will end up being better then Wade but not Jordan or Kobe.

He has a shot at being better than Wade and Kobe, just not Jordan.

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by Daniel Thompson

He has a shot at being better than Wade and Kobe, just not Jordan.

Well if he manages to somehow reel off those championships he was talking about, he could be better than all three of them. It depends on what we're talking about when you say "better" too, because Jordan was super efficient, but I don't think he has more overall skill than Lebron, or offensive skill than Kobe for that matter.

[Daniel Thompson]

I think MJ had better offensive skills than Kobe Bryant.

[Scrandy Randy]

Yeah, Jordan's untouchable #1 legend status is a bit much if im honest. Jordan and Kobe on pure basketball terms are a lot closer then most like to admit. His overall image(shoes, commercials, etc) in his prime makes a lot of people overrate him. That's another discussion though, probably best saved for the off season.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

I think LeBron will end up being better then Wade but not Jordan or Kobe.

I don't. Wade won a championship without LeBron. LeBron had to crawl to Wade and ask him to win a title for him.

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by Daniel Thompson

I think MJ had better offensive skills than Kobe Bryant.

I don't, he was way more efficient, and that's partially because he didn't have (and admitted he didn't want) the type of range Kobe has on his shot. MJ wanted to stay in the paint, around the elbow or down on the low block. Kobe is also a better ballhandler and I think he has a wider array of moves from the post & mid-range, better footwork, etc.

But that's also Kobe's problem in terms of efficiency, because he'd rather take the tough, contested jumper over the easier play. For example, that one-legged fadeaway he stole from Dirk is hardly ever necessary every time I've seen him do it, he just wants to show that he can, in fact, do it.

His mentality is such that he'll just experiment and try different things in a game, seemingly for his own amusement. I think his pump fake, spin pivot jumper is poetry in motion, but I only saw it as a necessary move once, when he did it against New York when he set the Garden record. That's why he's not quite the player MJ is, MJ was relentless to the bucket for the higher percentage shots. But in terms of actual basketball skill, Kobe's better. Even Phil admits that, and he barely likes the guy.

[Matt]

Kobe may be a more skilled player, but MJ is the better all around package.

[Scrandy Randy]

Harden gets a foul literally every time he drives to the basket no matter what.

[BatSpider]

Originally Posted by Matt

Kobe may be a more skilled player, but MJ is the better all around package.

This.

Jordan could still go to the paint in half court offenses. Kobe mostly penetrates and pulls up. Not saying neither of them can do both. MJ just went ham in the paint more often.

[Daniel Thompson]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

I don't, he was way more efficient, and that's partially because he didn't have (and admitted he didn't want) the type of range Kobe has on his shot. MJ wanted to stay in the paint, around the elbow or down on the low block. Kobe is also a better ballhandler and I think he has a wider array of moves from the post & mid-range, better footwork, etc.

But that's also Kobe's problem in terms of efficiency, because he'd rather take the tough, contested jumper over the easier play. For example, that one-legged fadeaway he stole from Dirk is hardly ever necessary every time I've seen him do it, he just wants to show that he can, in fact, do it.

His mentality is such that he'll just experiment and try different things in a game, seemingly for his own amusement. I think his pump fake, spin pivot jumper is poetry in motion, but I only saw it as a necessary move once, when he did it against New York when he set the Garden record. That's why he's not quite the player MJ is, MJ was relentless to the bucket for the higher percentage shots. But in terms of actual basketball skill, Kobe's better. Even Phil admits that, and he barely likes the guy.

At the age Kobe Bryant is now, MJ had better offensive stats back then.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

Harden gets a foul literally every time he drives to the basket no matter what.

I'm not surprised that Thunder players get home cooking tonight. It's going to be an uphill battle to win for the Lakers.

[Daniel Thompson]

Lakers playing them tough so far so anything can happen, black mamba can go off anytime now.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

I think LeBron will end up being better then Wade but not Jordan or Kobe.

Originally Posted by Nightmare

I think he's already better than Wade ever was.

The thing is, as a Heat fan I always side with Wade. I mean most "real" fans laugh at people with Lebron jerseys.

As a fan of basketball it's ridiculous how Wade gets away with blame on everything because he's living off a ring he won 6 years ago. Wade has been pretty mediocre for large parts of the season. Now whether that's down to him conceding the offense to Lebron is debatable but in the course of the season Lebron has come up bigger and better than Wade in crunch time situations. Lebron missed a pair of free throws, Wade missed a layup....badly. But the media gives Wade a pass because he has a ring. It's ridiculous really. I expect, demand better from D-Wade.

[Daniel Thompson]

Well Wade overall throughtout his career has been clutch. Sure he has missed game winning shots and crucial layups/jumpers but he has mostly been clutch his entire career so far, cannot say the same for Lebron. Not to mention Wade has a killer instinct and a natural born leader, like Stephan A. Smith said, the man is an assassin who can kill ya at any point in time.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Daniel Thompson

Well Wade overall throughtout his career has been clutch. Sure he has missed game winning shots and crucial layups/jumpers but he has mostly been clutch his entire career so far, cannot say the same for Lebron. Not to mention Wade has a killer instinct and a natural born leader, like Stephan A. Smith said, the man is an assassin who can kill ya at any point in time.

Well I'm talking this season. He has been none of that this season and for the most part last season as well. That game winning 3 against the Bulls seems like a very long time ago if I'm being honest. Being clutch is more than just making the game winning basket. Robert Horry made a bunch of those but he wasn't the "man" on any of his teams.

[Erzengel]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

Absolutely (and being a Packer fan I concur with the Favre comparison)

But the even better comparison I've been making for years is with Peyton Manning. Lebron is the exact same guy.

Originally Posted by Matt

It is an apt comparison except the media never gives their poster boy Peyton a hard time about anything.

Because Peyton comes off as likable and beloved (unless you were a AFC South rival or the Patriots fan) which is very obvious Lebron wishes he was. He's not Reggie Miller, he doesn't relish being the villain.

And as much as I can see the comparison with Peyton, if Lebron stayed in Cleveland and won, the criticism would be drastically reduced. But because he joined the Heat, he will be lambasted if he doesn't win or if he does because he couldn't do it on his own.

If Peyton, tried to join another team with a stellar WR and a vaunted defense, maybe he would have been viewed the same way.

[Daniel Thompson]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Well I'm talking this season. He has been none of that this season and for the most part last season as well. That game winning 3 against the Bulls seems like a very long time ago if I'm being honest. Being clutch is more than just making the game winning basket. Robert Horry made a bunch of those but he wasn't the "man" on any of his teams.

I know but Wade has shown alot of times over his career, not this season or most of last though that he is ''the man'' on his team. He does ned to step it back up. But LBJ deserves more critics on his back than Wade. Wade has shown he can be a winner, LBJ has not yet.