The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

[pyromaniac]

Steve Rogers has never once shown to exhibit any violent tendencies. And Stark's heroics are in the context of protecting himself from corporate theft and intellectual property. He saved people sure, but they were usually a by product of his either discovering his powers or in relation to his enemies. True sacrifice is to lay down your life for not only people whom you don't know but also for goals that have nothing to do with you. So, yes, Rogers was correct in his assessment of Stark. Otherwise the latter would have brushed it off if it meant nothing. So obviously there was some truth to it.

Leaders picking fights? To be technical, Stark 'started' it but that's besides the point. Have we forgotten how respectful they were towards each other in Stuttgart? Cap had no issue with Stark coming in to 'save the day' and they even addressed each other by their code names. Black Widow was more bemused than anything else when Iron man overrode the jet's controls.

[SuperSoldier985]

Wow, this is still going on?

[The Sage]

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

I'd kinda wished during that scene that Steve said something like, "your father was 10 times the man you are." Clearly from IM2, Tony had issues with his dad, but I think he feels a strong connection at the same time. Like in the first one where he says he never got to say goodbye to his father. Steve telling him that would have sent him over the edge.

Tony did say, "That's the guy my dad was always raving about?" after meeting Rogers. I thought there might have been some resentment, or maybe just a "I don't see the big deal about him." Clearly his opinion changed over the course of the movie.

[Suzanne78]

I thought it couldn't have been clearer that Loki's staff affected the entire team in the laboratory. Joss used disorienting camera angles centered around the staff while everyone was arguing behind it. Coupled with Stark acting disoriented and Banner picking up the staff without realizing it, and it really was pretty obvious what was going on.

[Mr. Immortal]

Why does anyone even respond to Guard? There's something wrong with him.

I wonder if Cap and Thor will get the ''kill shots'' in the second film as opposed to Hulk and Iron Man? I'm a bit worried about how the newer films will handle an extended roster as well. Generally when new characters appear in franchises they're given big arcs right? I think The Avengers should always primarily be about the Big Four.

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I like the backbone he displayed, when he was displaying backbone.

Backbone, in terms of being a leader, is standing up for whats morally right and whats best for the team and the mission. Telling someone off just because you can...especially when that person's actions aren't actually affecting anything...isn't an appropriate move for a leader.

Leaders shouldn't pick fights. Or allow them to continue. They should most certainly try to diffuse the situation without violence.

The main problem I have with it is that this is Rogers' first impulse. To resolve the issue with violence. He never even tries to really talk to Stark, to find any common ground. The scene works because of the actors, but it just feels like a somewhat forced way to create drama between them.

If that moment was caused by Loki's spear...I could see that, but if that's the case, it wasn't well handled or shown.



Stark essentially helped Captain America defeat Loki. He may have saved Rogers' life. Whatever his methods, whatever teasing her may have done, Stark got results. Stark went after Thor, but this didn't really affect their mission. Thor taking Loki did. Stark just didn't listen to Cap about going after Thor.

By the time Captain America admonishes him, Stark was helping. He was obviously assisting Banner in finding the cube. He was also working on finding what Fury was hiding from everyone else.

And it's a moot point, because Captain America thinking Stark was a jerk doesn't mean its okay for him to be a jerk, too.

Rogers defending Banner and telling Stark to knock it off would have been fine. But Rogers then takes it farther.



I don't have a whole lot of respect for Captain America when he can't ignore a few jokes.



Except that, as has been pointed out, Banner didn't need him to fight for him. Banner was fine. Rogers response essentially made he himself look like a bully by the end of it.

Captain America's comments about Stark pretending to be a hero ring false (because given his past actions, Stark clearly isn't just pretending) as do Stark's about Captain America. They're both out of line there, but Rogers was out of line first.

Stark also put his hand on Cap's shoulder (which was definitely meant to offend him) as well as say they basically should let Banner Hulk out before Steve goes on about what Stark is without the suit. He looks no better than Cap does at this point in time, and as others have noted, the staff was effecting everyone. Stark wasn't very friendly with Cap from the start, and was cracking jokes about Cap before he displayed any kind of displeasure towards him (the "Capsicle" comment comes before Cap says anything out of line to Stark...before that, he just welcomed him when he came and Loki allowed them to capture him, and said he felt Loki threw the fight...then Stark started being a jerk).

[The Guard]

I get it now. You're just never going to back down from this "not understanding Loki's staff" issue. That's fine man. To some of us it was as clear as day the effect it had on all of the men in the room. At one point Stark even rubs his forehead and winces as if something is doing something to his mind. Banner even picks up the Staff without even knowing it...... but none of that's overt enough for you. It's all forced. We get it.

How does one "not back down from not understanding something"?

No...I get the ever-so-subtle thing where the screen turns upside down.

Having a magic spear cause bickering is still pretty much forced drama to me.

Steve Rogers has never once shown to exhibit any violent tendencies.

Except for getting into verbal and physical fights and, you know, killing people.

And Stark's heroics are in the context of protecting himself from
corporate theft and intellectual property.

Arguable. Not in IRON MAN 2. In IRON MAN 2, his heroics have more to do with protecting the people at the Stark Expo. And in THE AVENGERS, he seemed to be there originally to stop Loki.

He saved people sure, but they were usually a by product of his either discovering his powers or in relation to his enemies.

That has more to do with the threats he faces than Stark himself. His intentions are still noble, as are most of his actions as Iron Man.

True sacrifice is to lay down your life for not only people whom you don't know but also for goals that have nothing to do with you. So, yes, Rogers was correct in his assessment of Stark. Otherwise the latter would have brushed it off if it meant nothing. So obviously there was some truth to it.

I know it gave Tony pause, and made him angry. But I don't neccessarily think that makes it true. Tony's never had a moment where he had to make that choice. Accusing someone of being something they've never had the chance to be seems kind of silly to me. Cap also accused Tony of pretending to be a hero, but Tony clearly wasn't pretending.

Leaders picking fights? To be technical, Stark 'started' it but that's besides the point. Have we forgotten how respectful they were towards each other in Stuttgart? Cap had no issue with Stark coming in to 'save the day' and they even addressed each other by their code names. Black Widow was more bemused than anything else when Iron man overrode the jet's controls.

I'm aware they were civil elsewhere in the film. But I was referring to this particular event.

I thought it couldn't have been clearer that Loki's staff affected the entire team in the laboratory. Joss used disorienting camera angles centered around the staff while everyone was arguing behind it. Coupled with Stark acting disoriented and Banner picking up the staff without realizing it, and it really was pretty obvious what was going on.

Except that, in the Cap/Stark argument, it kind of wasn't apparent until after the fact, as I'm pretty sure the spear's influence was shown after that, with the exception of the whole "My head hurts/I may be being mind controlled" thing. Stark and Cap aren't acting disoriented in the least at this point. They're acting like their normal selves, and if the scene is "The staff makes Captain America and Stark and The Avengers argue?" That's just kind of weak to me conflict to me.

[C. Lee]

Sounds to me like The Guard just plain doesn't like Cap....and so nothing he does is right.

[captainrogers]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Sounds to me like The Guard just plain doesn't like Cap....and so nothing he does is right.

Pretty much is how his posts come across to me as well.

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Sounds to me like The Guard just plain doesn't like Cap....and so nothing he does is right.

Agreed. Especially cause he just said someone killing in war (not for fun) means they have violent tendencies

Stark did those in Iron Man, as well. Does this mean Stark has violent tendencies as well?

[The Guard]

I don't see where you'd get that I just don't like Cap, and that I think nothing he does in the film is right based on my feelings about one sequence.

I love Captain America. He's my favorite Avenger, and he's how I was reintroduced to comics. I like a lot of what he does in the movie. I just don't think it's an impressive character scene.

[MarvelKnight]

Saw Avengers for the 3rd time last night and coming out of the movie, though I know everyone will have great things going into their solo's, I think I'm slightly more excited for Captain America's future. Can't wait to see what they do with CA2

[The Guard]

Agreed. Especially cause he just said someone killing in war (not for fun) means they have violent tendencies

Stark did those in Iron Man, as well. Does this mean Stark has violent tendencies as well?

That was a bit of tongue in cheek, but...kind of. They both have used violence to solve problems. Are they loose cannons who go around hurting random people? No.

[BoredGuy]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I love Captain America. He's my favorite Avenger, and he's how I was reintroduced to comics. I like a lot of what he does in the movie. I just don't think it's an impressive character scene.

And that's exactly the point.
They were purposely acting out of character in that scene, because of the (pre-established to be) mind-controlling staff.
Just because Cap wasnt grabbing his head in pain doesn't mean he wasn't being affected.
This is like beating your head against the wall, this argument...

[hafizbat]

Don't forget that even before the staff induced argument between ALL the Avengers, Stark was a jerk to Cap.

1. On the Quinjet he calls him a Capsicle for no reason, also starts making fun of him being "old"

2. When Cap reminds him to stay focused and stops him from bothering Banner, Stark makes fun of his "spangly" uniform and calls him useless.

So I think it makes sense that he got on Caps nerves, add in the sceptor's influence and I don't see what Guards problem with Rogers is....

Leave the Captain alone and go suck up to Iron Man somewhere else...we've had enough of your senseless banter about the same topic

[Drummerdude7]

Guard is merely stating his opinion, no need to knock him for it. The point of these threads is to have discussion and debate.

[marcvader]

It's fine till it goes on and on and on and on, on both sides.

[hafizbat]

Anyways, what would you guys want to see most in Cap 2?

For me it's three things
-Flesh out the "Man out of time" in Steve Rogers

-At last showcase the full potential of the super-soldier (TA was good, now expand Cap's physical prowess)

-Keep the story connected to Cap's WWII past, with Sharon Carter or Hydra or Winter Solider etc.

Oh and one more thing, make sure Steve Rogers is still always the good "little man" on the inside. I hate it when they make Cap too dark

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by Drummerdude7

Guard is merely stating his opinion, no need to knock him for it. The point of these threads is to have discussion and debate.

Agreed. He is allowed to voice his opinion, whether you agree with it or not.

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

Agreed. Especially cause he just said someone killing in war (not for fun) means they have violent tendencies

Stark did those in Iron Man, as well. Does this mean Stark has violent tendencies as well?

Stark uppercut a man to death in IM1.

[galmorzu]

If they Captain America sequel follows the comics with the Winter Soldier storyline, I really, really hope they are able to bring Scarlett Johansson back as Black Widow for it.

Aside from the fact that Bucky was held by the russians and used by them, which makes Black Widow's Russian ties absolutely perfect, I would also really like to see them get together like they do in the comics.

Case in point, Bucky's been brainwashed, made to do terrible things, and probably hates himself for it. From what we've seen in the Avengers, Black Widow has the EXACT SAME past and has her own demons and pain to try and overcome.

It would be a great bonding point for them, making BW better to understand Bucky's problems then Cap possibly could, despite being his best friend.

It's a storyline point I would really like to see unfold.

[Savage]

Who says Black Widow was brainwashed? I got the impression that she did that stuff of her own free will. She had a specific skill set and she didn't care who used it for what.

If Bucky comes back I want it to be in the third one. Let's explore Steve's loneliness in the modern times first. If Bucky showed up in the second movie I'd just want him to get killed by the end again if only to cement Rogers as the only one of his kind out there. Hell, the only person besides Cap I'd like to see make it to the modern day, really, is the Red Skull just to drive home that the only person like him out there is a maniac.

[galmorzu]

Originally Posted by Savage

Who says Black Widow was brainwashed? I got the impression that she did that stuff of her own free will. She had a specific skill set and she didn't care who used it for what.

When Hawkeye was talking about how horrible it was having someone go into your head, take you out and scramble up what was left to turn you into something else, he said something along the lines of, "Do you know what that feels like?" And she replies, as if lost in thought, "You know I do."

I thought it was pretty obvious, actually, that she had gone through some bad stuff in her earlier days.

[Savage]

Huh. Guess I just saw it as her being raised in a bad way. Not brainwash in the sci-fi Hawkeye/Bucky sense but brainwashed in the trained to kill from childhood and just didn't know any better sense.

Wow do I want to see a Black Widow and Hawkeye movie. I'm sure they'd both do okay on their own but I don't really see that happening

[The Caped Knight]

Originally Posted by hafizbat

Anyways, what would you guys want to see most in Cap 2?

For me it's three things
-Flesh out the "Man out of time" in Steve Rogers

-At last showcase the full potential of the super-soldier (TA was good, now expand Cap's physical prowess)

-Keep the story connected to Cap's WWII past, with Sharon Carter or Hydra or Winter Solider etc.

Oh and one more thing, make sure Steve Rogers is still always the good "little man" on the inside. I hate it when they make Cap too dark

I'd most defiantly like to see this as well as a foreshadowing of The return of The Red Skull.