The Official X-Men: First Class Rate and Review Thread: Third Edition

[Nerial]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I don't think that the film will pick up immediately after First Class either. Maybe a year down the track?

I think it's possible though that Charles' way of dealing with his trauma would be to not really deal with it, and instead try to get busy with things and tell everyone (and himself) that he's ok. Until at some point his undealt-with trauma bubbles over.

Ha! That's exactly what I thought and exactly how I wrote it in my fic! I think you're spot-on; I think Charles is the type of person who tries to stay positive, to be the "good professor," the "good patient," and will try to rise above any grief he might be feeling. But then the undealt-with trauma just becomes too great...and he starts to sink and then everything goes very, very wrong.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by Nerial

I think you're spot-on; I think Charles is the type of person who tries to stay positive, to be the "good professor," the "good patient," and will try to rise above any grief he might be feeling.

I also think that Charles' leader/teacher personality would leave him quite isolated as he'd be unlikely to talk about his issues to anyone at his school or his team. It's kinda interesting that while Erik is so obviously a loner who doesn't really open up to people, Charles in his more subtle way is probably not so dissimilar in that regard.

Originally Posted by Nerial

Yes, getting into details about Charles dealing with heat and cold intolerance, his bladder being paralyzed, “phantom legs,” atrophy, loss of muscle tone, sexual dysfunction, osteoporosis, body image issues, muscle spasms…yeah, probably not going to find these in a blockbuster movie. But showing him dealing with the grief of his limitations, having to relearn simple skills like dressing himself, feeling helpless/worthless, etc…all of those are certainly possible. Oh, and not being able to walk is a pain in the butt as well.

If they do deal with Charles' paralysis then I'm guessing it will somehow fit into the course of the main plot, especially if the pace is as frantic as it is in First Class. I don't think that the movie will actually take time to show Charles adjust to his new life and dealing with paralysis in normal everyday situations like dressing or going up the stairs, re-learning things etc. This is something that would happen in a normal drama (or a fanfic ) but not, I think, in a fast-paced adventure movie.

In the same way, if they show Charles "walk through fire", so to speak, I don't think it will be simply be a strictly internal drama about his feelings and coming to terms with paralysis. Like, in First Class we don't just see Erik deal with his childhood trauma internally - it then makes him commit certain external actions which help propel the whole story forward.

Originally Posted by Nerial

But I will be annoyed if Charles’ character doesn’t get the opportunity to come full circle, from a slightly arrogant, idealistic young man to a wise and humble Professor X.

Can I just confess that personally I don't particularly look forward to this wise and humble Professor X? I kinda love Charles more when he's an arrogant know-it-all

[Zink]

Originally Posted by Loganbabe

It was a Magneto film. Disguised as a X-Men film.


Well, the next film will have a paraplegic telepath. Guess you are in agreement with Vaughn that nothing can be more boring than a professor in a wheelchair.

Haha. How do you miss points so....completely? Tell me- what did you take away from Jason's characterization? What did you learn about his motives, his ambition, his conflict? I recall lots of blank staring, and tedious hallucinations.

That whole sequence is the antithesis to First Class. Magneto/Shaw was WAY more effective than that droll staring contest 'epic'.

[blueserenity]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I also think that Charles' leader/teacher personality would leave him quite isolated as he'd be unlikely to talk about his issues to anyone at his school or his team. It's kinda interesting that while Erik is so obviously a loner who doesn't really open up to people, Charles in his more subtle way is probably not so dissimilar in that regard.



If they do deal with Charles' paralysis then I'm guessing it will somehow fit into the course of the main plot, especially if the pace is as frantic as it is in First Class. I don't think that the movie will actually take time to show Charles adjust to his new life and dealing with paralysis in normal everyday situations like dressing or going up the stairs, re-learning things etc. This is something that would happen in a normal drama (or a fanfic ) but not, I think, in a fast-paced adventure movie.

In the same way, if they show Charles "walk through fire", so to speak, I don't think it will be simply be a strictly internal drama about his feelings and coming to terms with paralysis. Like, in First Class we don't just see Erik deal with his childhood trauma internally - it then makes him commit certain external actions which help propel the whole story forward.



Can I just confess that personally I don't particularly look forward to this wise and humble Professor X? I kinda love Charles more when he's an arrogant know-it-all

Seconded! For everything. I think as far as dealing with the physical issues that come with the paralysis (getting dressed etc) I don't think we will get scenes dedicated to it either, I think that like you said it will work within the plot. And I think James is a clever enough actor to add in these adjustments even when they're not required. I would imagine there are so many frustrations even with the most basic of things that we will get to see some of it without changing the pace of the movie.

You make a good point about Erik's trauma never being really internal but rather felt through his actions. Erik's a more physical character than Charles though, and that was true before Cuba. It will be interesting to see how Charles' tragedy manifests itself. I for one would like him to get angry before eventually becoming forgiving.

And yeah, I like him better as a know-it-all too. I can't see the characters fully transition to who they're meant to be until the third movie though. If they complete their arcs in the second one, the third one won't have that much left to say. This is assuming of course that the trilogy will be based around Erik, Charles, and to a lesser extent Raven. Which I really hope it is .

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Zink

Haha. How do you miss points so....completely? Tell me- what did you take away from Jason's characterization? What did you learn about his motives, his ambition, his conflict? I recall lots of blank staring, and tedious hallucinations.

That whole sequence is the antithesis to First Class. Magneto/Shaw was WAY more effective than that droll staring contest 'epic'.

Your post wasn't directed at me but I would say, in fairness, that William Stryker was the villain of X2 and his son Jason was his motivation and his weapon/pawn.

Mind battles are always doomed to be shown as staring contests unless the filmmakers finally embrace the concept of the astral plane. Here's hoping they do this in the First Class sequel; it will give Xavier some 'dynamic' physical scenes as well if there is a battle where he is not in the chair.

[blueserenity]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Your post wasn't directed at me but I would say, in fairness, that William Stryker was the villain of X2 and his son Jason was his motivation and his weapon/pawn.

Mind battles are always doomed to be shown as staring contests unless the filmmakers finally embrace the concept of the astral plane. Here's hoping they do this in the First Class sequel; it will give Xavier some 'dynamic' physical scenes as well if there is a battle where he is not in the chair.

They did have the intention of one between Charles and Emma in the first movie but apparently it was too close to the hotel fight in Inception so they cut it. I really like the idea though, and wonder if by 2014 enough time will have passed since Inception that they can get away with it without being labeled as copycats? I'm not particularly keen on the astral plane idea (mostly because visually it's cheesy) but I think it'd be amazing to have a "physical" fight in the mind. It'd be even cooler if the antagonist (and the viewers) didn't immediately realize it was all in their heads.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by blueserenity

They did have the intention of one between Charles and Emma in the first movie but apparently it was too close to the hotel fight in Inception so they cut it. I really like the idea though, and wonder if by 2014 enough time will have passed since Inception that they can get away with it without being labeled as copycats?

I think they just weren't happy with the way it came out, personally. I mean, movies have scenes that look like scenes from other movies all the time, it's only really a problem when they come off poorly compared to the original.

If they can do it right, mind battle would be cool to see for sure.

Originally Posted by blueserenity

It will be interesting to see how Charles' tragedy manifests itself.

I seem to vaguely remember a quote from James where he was suggesting that maybe Charles gets addicted to Cerebro and then somehow bad stuff happens. Don't know if they'll roll with it but it's one of the possibilities.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I seem to vaguely remember a quote from James where he was suggesting that maybe Charles gets addicted to Cerebro and then somehow bad stuff happens. Don't know if they'll roll with it but it's one of the possibilities.

That would be an interesting idea. With his lonely upbringing (aside from Mystique), he could easily get overly keen on using Cerebro (providing we see a brand new one built) to reach out to other mutants and then addicted to the 'rush' from it. Wonder what would happen as a result though?

[blueserenity]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I think they just weren't happy with the way it came out, personally. I mean, movies have scenes that look like scenes from other movies all the time, it's only really a problem when they come off poorly compared to the original.

If they can do it right, mind battle would be cool to see for sure.



I seem to vaguely remember a quote from James where he was suggesting that maybe Charles gets addicted to Cerebro and then somehow bad stuff happens. Don't know if they'll roll with it but it's one of the possibilities.

My headcanon has for a long time been that he loses his hair through overCerebro use (in an addict sort of way). This would be a pretty interesting idea to run with. He's cut himself off from Moira and doesn't want his students to know what he's going through so he turns to the machine to feel a connection.

I'm of two minds on how it gets resolved. On the one hand it'd be neat if he could buck up on his own and quit Cerebro cold turkey. On the other hand, not to make Charles seem helpless or dependent or anything, but it'd be really cool if Erik was the one who helped him. McAvoy has said on several occasions that hopefully, if nothing else, the Charles/Erik relationship won't follow the same routine as in the older movies (Erik badguy Charles goodguy) or even XMFC (Erik sorta-okayguy, Charles goodguy). Helping Charles out without a motive beyond friendship would be an interesting, complicated concept for both characters. It'd give them plenty of joint screentime and tons of angst. Which, after all that's gone down, I'd really like to see.

[The Original Bamfer]

Originally Posted by Nerial

I don’t appreciate the way this issue has been handled.

I appreciate your opinion.

[The Original Bamfer]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

That would be an interesting idea. With his lonely upbringing (aside from Mystique), he could easily get overly keen on using Cerebro (providing we see a brand new one built) to reach out to other mutants and then addicted to the 'rush' from it. Wonder what would happen as a result though?

I recall hearing Singer's Phoenix tale began when Jean used Cerebro in X-Men; she couldn't control it, and something - like an entity - penetrated her mind. A lot of interesting scenarios can be created via an abuse of the creation. Charles may understand that it can locate mutants, but he probably knows very little of it's potential. You could even go down the Shadow King route that way.

[Nerial]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I also think that Charles' leader/teacher personality would leave him quite isolated as he'd be unlikely to talk about his issues to anyone at his school or his team. It's kinda interesting that while Erik is so obviously a loner who doesn't really open up to people, Charles in his more subtle way is probably not so dissimilar in that regard.
If they do deal with Charles' paralysis then I'm guessing it will somehow fit into the course of the main plot, especially if the pace is as frantic as it is in First Class. I don't think that the movie will actually take time to show Charles adjust to his new life and dealing with paralysis in normal everyday situations like dressing or going up the stairs, re-learning things etc. This is something that would happen in a normal drama (or a fanfic ) but not, I think, in a fast-paced adventure movie.
In the same way, if they show Charles "walk through fire", so to speak, I don't think it will be simply be a strictly internal drama about his feelings and coming to terms with paralysis. Like, in First Class we don't just see Erik deal with his childhood trauma internally - it then makes him commit certain external actions which help propel the whole story forward.
Can I just confess that personally I don't particularly look forward to this wise and humble Professor X? I kinda love Charles more when he's an arrogant know-it-all

Oh, I must confess, I kind of like that arrogant Charles as well! And I don’t think it will be like flipping a light switch between young Charles and Prof. X, but by the end of the trilogy (if they do a trilogy—fingrers-crossed), you can easily see how this young man will be the wiser and humble Professor X when he’s older. I don’t want James McAvoy mirroring Patrick Stewart, just to make things clear.

As of the paralysis weaving through the main plot—I actually do agree with that. But just like seeing Erik’s grief with the loss of his mother, you can play something similar to Charles and it only takes seconds, really. Just like the “Rage and Serenity” scene, or even the scene where Erik is floating that Nazi coin between his fingers…it’s a subtle way to show his turmoil in relatively quick moments.

All of Erik’s pain is weaved so well through the story, and not all those scenes are action scenes. I think they could do the same for Charles—not the same path, of course, but the same concept. Heck, just having a moment where Erik is doing something terrible and Charles feels helpless to stop him because he can’t get to him, is one example of this. I don’t expect them to get into the details of everything Charles is facing with his injury, but that overall feeling of helplessness (and even worthlessness) is something they could definitely project here. Some internal drama would be nice, though—just a little.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by The Original Bamfer

I recall hearing Singer's Phoenix tale began when Jean used Cerebro in X-Men; she couldn't control it, and something - like an entity - penetrated her mind. A lot of interesting scenarios can be created via an abuse of the creation. Charles may understand that it can locate mutants, but he probably knows very little of it's potential. You could even go down the Shadow King route that way.

Yes, I also recall that was among Singer's ideas woven into X1 as potential set-ups for Phoenix.

I guess if you reach out with your mind, you leave it open and vulnerable for someone/something to reach back. A bit like sticking your arm into dark waters and discovering there are piranhas or sharks in it...

[Loganbabe]

Originally Posted by Nerial

It felt very much like an attack to me, calling a poster “irritating” and paranoid, and questioning why they bother to participate at all. Loganbabe is just passionate about the character and has a right to discuss that. It’s also her right to not change her mind about it.

Thank you so much, Nerial. Your opinion on the subject really means a lot to me.

Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it. I think this is a clear case of a poster being singled out for expressing an opinion that - maybe - goes against the opinion of the majority, but whenever I try to point this out I'm just playing "the victim". But the personal attacks persist, even though there are no personal attacks from me - I'm just criticizing aspects of the film, and the way Vaughn handled certain issues and his and Kinberg's apparent lack of interest in Charles Xavier, which leaves me worried for the sequel.

I can change my mind later, when the film is ready. I want to like the sequel. But at the moment, I'm pessimist. I thought I would be allowed to express this, that my expectations aren't so high as they were for FC. Guess I was wrong.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by Nerial

As of the paralysis weaving through the main plot—I actually do agree with that. But just like seeing Erik’s grief with the loss of his mother, you can play something similar to Charles and it only takes seconds, really. Just like the “Rage and Serenity” scene, or even the scene where Erik is floating that Nazi coin between his fingers…it’s a subtle way to show his turmoil in relatively quick moments.

Yes, these are good examples of internal moments which also contribute to the storyline - the coin makes a very dramatic reappearance when Erik finally meets Shaw near the end of the movie and basically re-enacts what he does with Shaw's picture at the start. And the "Rage and Serenity" scene makes it possible for Shaw's submarine to be lifted during Cuba battle. It would be nice to get something similar for Charles in the sequel.

Originally Posted by Nerial

Heck, just having a moment where Erik is doing something terrible and Charles feels helpless to stop him because he can’t get to him, is one example of this.

First Class actually kinda had that, with Erik and the missiles on the beach and that helmet making it hard for Charles to stop him. But definitely, having that extra limitation would make Charles feel even more helpless.

[The Original Bamfer]

Originally Posted by Loganbabe

Thank you so much, Nerial. Your opinion on the subject really means a lot to me.

Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about it. I think this is a clear case of a poster being singled out for expressing an opinion that - maybe - goes against the opinion of the majority, but whenever I try to point this out I'm just playing "the victim". But the personal attacks persist, even though there are no personal attacks from me - I'm just criticizing aspects of the film, and the way Vaughn handled certain issues and his and Kinberg's apparent lack of interest in Charles Xavier, which leaves me worried for the sequel.

I can change my mind later, when the film is ready. I want to like the sequel. But at the moment, I'm pessimist. I thought I would be allowed to express this, that my expectations aren't so high as they were for FC. Guess I was wrong.

I responded to this a few days ago right as the forum was lagging - it must've not posted. So I'll try to re-write what was in my original post:

You're entitled to your opinion, regardless if people agree or if it goes against the "majority". It wasn't so much your views I was trying to target, but rather how you present them; it's sometimes difficult to discuss things with you (even when I agree on some points) because there's such a finality in your tone. But I didn't mean to come off as if I was warning or punishing you. As long as voicing your opinion breaks none of the written rules nor is offensive, you have just as much to present them as anyone else does. I recognize that I had way too much of an edge in the tone of my post, and I apologize for offending you. I want you to feel as comfortable posting here as everyone else does.

Don't ever feel like there's nothing you can do if you feel threatened or attacked. No one is exempt from the rules - including moderators. The easiest way is to report a post by using the report feature (the triangle button with a "!" beneath the user's profile section on the left) or private message a staff member.

If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to send me a private message. But as a request to the entire thread, I'd appreciate we get back on topic.

[danoyse]

I would like to back up Bamf on this one. We have not been letting anyone get victimized here. There have been multiple warnings on the this forum about respecting the opinions of others, offensive posts have been deleted and people have been infracted.

If at any point any of you have felt we've missed a personal attack, please report it and it will be dealt with.

And now let's get back on topic.

[Racetrack]

Originally Posted by danoyse

And now let's get back on topic.

Just watched this for the second time after seeing it on release weekend last year and i can't get over the fact of how much i HATE this movie. What baffles me even more is how almost everyone LOVES it.

The ONLY thing i enjoyed was the portrayal of Xavier and Magneto's friendship and the acting by McAvoy and Fassbender who were awesome.

IMHO this is not only the worst X-Men movie but down there with the worst Marvel turkeys such as Elektra and Fantastic Four.

As a lifelong Marvel fan and comic collector since i was a kid in the 80's i see this as one big middle finger to all the fans of the source material and even fans of the previous 4 X-Men movies.

I know the vast majority disagree with the above but it's just my opinion

[BH/HHH]

Watched this again the other night with the missus, we've been watching all the X-Men films recently as she's never seen them. Like me she thinks First Class is by far the best and reason why Magneto Nazi Hunter, it really is my favourite part of the film.