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Old 04-24-2012, 09:51 AM   #51
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Default Re: In Place of Hugh Jackman?

Yeah other Rogue getting stuck there wasn't one moment in any of the films where I felt Wolverine was feral and his allies were in danger from his rage. The mansion raid showed how mean he could be and it was a good sequence. But he was never berserker and that is the element missing from his character.

Envision a feral Wolverine skulking out of the dark and advancing on a terrified Jean. The animal roars and charges in for the kill just as Jean lashes out in desperation. The shock restores Logan's senses and he recoils realizing what he's done.

A couple of scenes of that nature would about cover it.

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Old 04-24-2012, 02:07 PM   #52
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I don't know what the hell comics you have been reading, but in the Claremont books, that defined the character, and his ingratiation into the X-Men over those first years, the only time a team member was put into danger by Logan's feral rage, was when Nightcrawler took the piss out of Logan during a danger room session, and Logan launched at him full on with extended claws, from which he of course teleported away.

He had arguments with cyclops all the time, but that scene with nightcrawler was the only time he ever launched out in a deadly way at a team member.
One time cyclops punched him, and Logan extended his claws, but Storm got inbetween that one, and told him if he wanted to stab Cyke, he'd have to stab her first.

Moviewise...he did go 'beserker' in the mansion, on the first soldier who he impaled on the fridge, as well as the ones he charged at, one of which he slashed his face off, and the others all stabbed to death. You have to be realistic here, these are '12' certificate movies, we are lcuky to have got that amount of the deadly Wolverine in such a film.

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Old 04-25-2012, 12:49 AM   #53
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Moviewise...he did go 'beserker' in the mansion, on the first soldier who he impaled on the fridge, as well as the ones he charged at, one of which he slashed his face off, and the others all stabbed to death. You have to be realistic here, these are '12' certificate movies, we are lcuky to have got that amount of the deadly Wolverine in such a film.
Oh you mean when he killed the guard in the kitchen and then asked Iceman if he was okay? Yeah totally berserk there! I'm surprised he didn't offer to fix him a glass of milk! You think that is an adequete interpretation of the feral nature he works so hard to suppress? Bum, you and I have very different definitions of feral, bestial and berserk.

Wolverine came close to stabbing little Katie Powers in a feral rage when he was wounded and pursued by Lady Deathstrike. He was barely able to restrain himself from shredding Karma who freed him from a Mojo induced frenzy. If Heather Hudson hadn't soothed him, Wolverine would have gutted Mac Hudson. Logan wasted an entire Canadian town in a berserker fury. Numerous villains have tapped into that bestial rage and turned him on teammates, friends and innocents. Do you want more examples of teammates and loved ones in mortal peril because Wolverine loses control of the beast? Typically he is able to snap out of it or is soothed or subdued in some way, but it's usually pretty close.

The Wolverine currently portrayed by Jackman is far cry from the Wolverine from the books. I have a lot of respect for what Singer and Jackman have done. All I'm saying is I would like to see the character in the hands of a creative team that isn't afraid let Logan struggle more with this inner demon. I just don't think Fox recognizes the importance of this element.

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Old 04-25-2012, 06:49 AM   #54
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Oh you mean when he killed the guard in the kitchen and then asked Iceman if he was okay? Yeah totally berserk there! I'm surprised he didn't offer to fix him a glass of milk! You think that is an adequete interpretation of the feral nature he works so hard to suppress? Bum, you and I have very different definitions of feral, bestial and berserk.

Wolverine came close to stabbing little Katie Powers in a feral rage when he was wounded and pursued by Lady Deathstrike. He was barely able to restrain himself from shredding Karma who freed him from a Mojo induced frenzy. If Heather Hudson hadn't soothed him, Wolverine would have gutted Mac Hudson. Logan wasted an entire Canadian town in a berserker fury. Numerous villains have tapped into that bestial rage and turned him on teammates, friends and innocents. Do you want more examples of teammates and loved ones in mortal peril because Wolverine loses control of the beast? Typically he is able to snap out of it or is soothed or subdued in some way, but it's usually pretty close.

The Wolverine currently portrayed by Jackman is far cry from the Wolverine from the books. I have a lot of respect for what Singer and Jackman have done. All I'm saying is I would like to see the character in the hands of a creative team that isn't afraid let Logan struggle more with this inner demon. I just don't think Fox recognizes the importance of this element.
What it sounds like, is you have cherrypicked some exceptional incidents from the wide variety of Wolverine comics, as opposed to looking at the usual kind of characterisation that the character follows, when he is in usual situations, like the stories followed in the OT of X-Men films.

He does not walk around the X-Men mansion like an insane bloodthirsty killer like that does he?
When he goes on missions like the ones in the 3 X-Men films, he doesn't have to worry about feeling like he wants to impale one of the other members right?

I was only talking about the 3 original X-Men films, not origins, which of course ommitted the bestial side that came out after the adamantium bonding process(which was also an exceptional case of him going nuts, that you also cited).

edit: Which is to say, he was not out of character in those first three films.

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Old 04-25-2012, 10:54 AM   #55
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What it sounds like, is you have cherrypicked some exceptional incidents from the wide variety of Wolverine comics, as opposed to looking at the usual kind of characterisation that the character follows, when he is in usual situations, like the stories followed in the OT of X-Men films.
Bum, do me a favor, don't debate me and then ignore your own posts. My "exceptional" and "cherrypicked" examples were in direct response to your BS post where you rudely stated, "I don't know what the hell comics you have been reading, but in the Claremont books, that defined the character, and his ingratiation into the X-Men over those first years, the only time a team member was put into danger by Logan's feral rage" . . . blah blah blah and, "but that scene with nightcrawler was the only time he ever launched out in a deadly way at a team member." I was pointing out your assertion that it only happened ONCE is incorrect.

I can also point to several interviews where Chris Claremont, the guy who defined the character as you yourself pointed out, talks about how the character translated to the films, although he respects and enjoys it, isn't his vision of character from the books.

CC: "Logan's strength as a character derives, to me, in large measure from his fundamental internal conflict: a man at odds with a primal inner beast, struggling to find a place for himself in the world. He's torn between two divergent worlds, the one wherein Sabretooth lives, that sees himself as predator and humans as prey -- and the one that's all around Logan, filled with "normal" people struggling to live "normal" lives. Fundamental dichotomy, and his ongoing attempts to resolve the conflict provide much of the primal conflict for the man and the story."

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He does not walk around the X-Men mansion like an insane bloodthirsty killer like that does he?
Now you're just trolling.

I never said he should roam around like a mindless beast for an entire film. I simply stated there are aspects of the character that could be flushed out better with a different creative team. The current incarnation doesn't convince me this guy is struggling to control a demon within him. If the neutered version works for you then that's great. As I keep saying, while I enjoyed the first 2 Xmen films, I felt they did not capture this (to me)crucial element of the character.

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Old 04-25-2012, 11:37 AM   #56
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Bum, do me a favor, don't debate me and then ignore your own posts. My "exceptional" and "cherrypicked" examples were in direct response to your BS post where you rudely stated, "I don't know what the hell comics you have been reading, but in the Claremont books, that defined the character, and his ingratiation into the X-Men over those first years, the only time a team member was put into danger by Logan's feral rage" . . . blah blah blah and, "but that scene with nightcrawler was the only time he ever launched out in a deadly way at a team member." I was pointing out your assertion that it only happened ONCE is incorrect.
I'm not ignoring my own posts, you're not reading them properly, I clearly said that *in Logans's first years with the X-Men, that kind of incident only happened once*, and that is the period of time covered in the first 3 X-Men films.
There was a suitable amount of time spent on that side of his character, given the fact he was in fairly typical X-Men type situations, *and* it was an ensemble piece.
edit: Storywise, there was nothing happening with Logan to get him into those extreme states of losing control, those are exceptional moments you cited, ie they do not happen often.
but Logan was still shown as a rough guy living an animalistic type of life, as i say further in in this post...

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I can also point to several interviews where Chris Claremont, the guy who defined the character as you yourself pointed out, talks about how the character translated to the films, although he respects and enjoys it, isn't his vision of character from the books.

CC: "Logan's strength as a character derives, to me, in large measure from his fundamental internal conflict: a man at odds with a primal inner beast, struggling to find a place for himself in the world. He's torn between two divergent worlds, the one wherein Sabretooth lives, that sees himself as predator and humans as prey -- and the one that's all around Logan, filled with "normal" people struggling to live "normal" lives. Fundamental dichotomy, and his ongoing attempts to resolve the conflict provide much of the primal conflict for the man and the story."
I can also disagree with Chris Claremont, he didn't write the movie. We did see that to an extent, Logan living on the road in rough conditions, making money from cage fights, living like an animal, wanting to distance himself from people. Look at the struggle between man and beast he has in the bar when he has the two guys at clawpoint, it's Rogue's presence that calms him down.


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Now you're just trolling.
don't get angry, I'm not trolling, I'm having a discussion with you.

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I never said he should roam around like a mindless beast for an entire film. I simply stated there are aspects of the character that could be flushed out better with a different creative team. The current incarnation doesn't convince me this guy is struggling to control a demon within him. If the neutered version works for you then that's great. As I keep saying, while I enjoyed the first 2 Xmen films, I felt they did not capture this (to me)crucial element of the character.
They covered it somewhat in the first movie, but yes, he needs a suitable vehicle for that aspect to be explored fully. Remember, the X-Men films were ensemble pieces. They messed up the first solo Wolverien film, Origins, but hopefully they can get to this aspect more in the next film.
But, you have to remember, they are *not* going to be able to depict the kind of scenes you are talking about, not in a '12' certifictae film.
See the fridge scene from X2 I cited, that you poo-pooed as being nothing much of a beserker? They had to cut that so it was not 'R' rated, editing it so that the camera cut away to Ice-man for a bit, they couldn't show Logan's full on intense scream without the rating going up.


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Old 04-25-2012, 12:53 PM   #57
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There was a suitable amount of time spent on that side of his character, given the fact he was in fairly typical X-Men type situations, *and* it was an ensemble piece.
edit: Storywise, there was nothing happening with Logan to get him into those extreme states of losing control, those are exceptional moments you cited, ie they do not happen often.
I have to disagree. X1 & X2 was very much the Wolverine & Xmen show. Also, those "exceptional" and "extreme states" are exactly what was missing to demonstrate Logan's internal struggle. You're right that they were rare occurrences but in comics you have the luxury of internal dialog to address his war with himself. In film it is necessary to show the audience exactly what Logan and by extension his friends, are up against.

For example, during the mansion raid, have Wolverine go full feral (because he is wounded and absorbs a lot of drugs), and when Stryker is introduced, instead of just standing there when Iceman pops his ice wall, Wolverine furiously starts to claw through it until Rogue grabs him, he turns on Rogue in a fury poised to stab her but quickly comes to his senses. Then later when they get to Bobby's, have a scene where Logan addresses the incident and shares his inner turmoil with Rogue.

This of course is just an example of something they could have done. It's a subtle alteration but conveys just how dangerous he can be.

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don't get angry, I'm not trolling, I'm having a discussion with you.
Apologies, I'm not angry, just seemed like you were purposely being obtuse.
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See the fridge scene from X2 I cited, that you poo-pooed as being nothing much of a beserker? They had to cut that so it was not 'R' rated, editing it so that the camera cut away to Ice-man for a bit, they couldn't show Logan's full on intense scream without the rating going up.
Lol! I'm no editor but I find it hard to believe that a clip of Logan screaming would change the rating to R. But maybe you're privy to information to which I am not.

Please understand, I am not saying that they need to add buckets of gore and an R rating to effectively adapt the character (although I wouldn't be against it). I just think there's a lot of depth to this character that they failed to portray in the films.

The one scene where that got it right was his Weapon X flashback in X1. That was a man who you could tell was tortured. Too bad they completely changed that scene in the Origin and screwed it all up.

Also if they could make Wolvie a runt again, I would be thrilled.

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Old 04-25-2012, 04:55 PM   #58
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I have to disagree. X1 & X2 was very much the Wolverine & Xmen show. Also, those "exceptional" and "extreme states" are exactly what was missing to demonstrate Logan's internal struggle. You're right that they were rare occurrences but in comics you have the luxury of internal dialog to address his war with himself. In film it is necessary to show the audience exactly what Logan and by extension his friends, are up against.

For example, during the mansion raid, have Wolverine go full feral (because he is wounded and absorbs a lot of drugs), and when Stryker is introduced, instead of just standing there when Iceman pops his ice wall, Wolverine furiously starts to claw through it until Rogue grabs him, he turns on Rogue in a fury poised to stab her but quickly comes to his senses. Then later when they get to Bobby's, have a scene where Logan addresses the incident and shares his inner turmoil with Rogue.

This of course is just an example of something they could have done. It's a subtle alteration but conveys just how dangerous he can be.
Dude, I don't think that would have worked in that scene, I don't think the situation was extreme enough for him to lose control like that.
I know you are just trying to put forth an example of a way to portray it amongst the scenarios we had, but it would not have worked, there wasn't enough factors to put him *that* on edge.
The drugs were just sleeping drugs, and Logan was not interested in killing stryker, remember he sheathed his claws when he appeared, he wanted answers.
He would not have been in a bloodlust frenzy at that moment in time.

See, you can't just try and shoehorn that kind of moment into a story, you have to have the story serve that kind of character moment.


The scene with him controlling his beastial side in X1 was pretty good, stopping himself from killing those guys in the bar, when he spots Rogue looking at him, That is a subtle way of portraying that struggle onscreen, and serves the story.

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Apologies, I'm not angry, just seemed like you were purposely being obtuse.
it's ok, it's fine, I just wanted to say that I don't troll, I just try to discuss in these kinds of talks.

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Lol! I'm no editor but I find it hard to believe that a clip of Logan screaming would change the rating to R. But maybe you're privy to information to which I am not.
Dude, it is explained on the deleted scenes commentary by Bryan Singer himself, on the second dvd disc of extras.
They show the full uncut scene with Logan screaming as he impales the soldier into the fridge(with the camera staying on him, instead of cutting away to Ice-man). Singer said that they had to edit the scene away from Logan, as the ratings board were going to bump up the rating.

I don't recall what rating it was, and I am not sure the rankings of your ratings, maybe he said it would have been bumped to a '17' rating instead of an 'R'? Over here we have PG, 12, 15, 18...I don't know how yours works, but it was to be bumped up anyway.
A scene can be deemed too intense for a certain rating with how it portrays violence, and such a simple edit can make all the difference.

Quote:
Please understand, I am not saying that they need to add buckets of gore and an R rating to effectively adapt the character (although I wouldn't be against it). I just think there's a lot of depth to this character that they failed to portray in the films.

The one scene where that got it right was his Weapon X flashback in X1. That was a man who you could tell was tortured. Too bad they completely changed that scene in the Origin and screwed it all up.

Also if they could make Wolvie a runt again, I would be thrilled.
I didn't like how they changed the flashback sequence either. The scene was perfect that way.
Yeah, they can go into that struggle dramatically, without gorey violence, and I guess that is what they are gonna do by adapting the CC/FM story, as that is what it is all about, and really, it was the first time it was truly explored in the comics.

Remember in the intro to the collected edition, where Chris Claremont talks about how he was on a long drive with Frank Miller, FM saying he only knows Wolverine as a psychotic killer type and is not interested in doing a book about that him, but Claremont explains to him the idea that Logan is a failed samurai, who cannot find that peace inside himself, and is trying to find it, that is his struggle, and so Miller got interested in doing the character for that kind of story.

That is the thing, they needed a solo comic to explore that indepth, so as soon as they had that first solo mini series, that's what they did, just as they need a Wolverine solo movie to explore it indepth, which is hopefully what we are gonna get.


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Old 04-26-2012, 03:02 PM   #59
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I'd like to see josh brolin as logan.

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Old 05-28-2012, 10:36 PM   #60
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Jon Bernthal and Scott Caan are pretty good suggestions! Maybe Dominic West.

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Old 06-09-2012, 12:02 PM   #61
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Timothy Olyphant?

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Old 06-09-2012, 03:15 PM   #62
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I can't think of anyone. He's the only reason I would be upset with a reboot!

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Old 06-11-2012, 12:43 PM   #63
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I can't think of anyone. He's the only reason I would be upset with a reboot!
What about Halle Berry?

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Old 06-11-2012, 03:15 PM   #64
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What about Halle Berry?
....nope.

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Old 06-12-2012, 07:38 AM   #65
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Patrick Stewart? You would HAVE to miss Patrick Stewart.o.O

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Old 06-12-2012, 10:15 AM   #66
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To whoever suggested John Bernthal... Bravo.

Perfect Casting. A much better choice than Jackman. He looks like Logan right out of the 80s comics.



And he's short.

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Old 06-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #67
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Dougray Scott.

Seriously though, I don't think it is time to recast. Jackman has shown tremendous loyalty to the franchise and clearly isn't ready to leave the role so why change simply for the sake of changing? I'm sure that the day will come when Wolverine needs to be recast, but it isn't here yet and therefore trying to put any contemporary actor in the role doesn't really work.

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Old 06-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #68
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To whoever suggested John Bernthal... Bravo.

Perfect Casting. A much better choice than Jackman. He looks like Logan right out of the 80s comics.



And he's short.
Bernthal looks nothing like Wolverine and is a tremendous over-actor.

He also looks like the splitting image of Popeye (The Sailor Man).

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Old 06-19-2012, 09:01 AM   #69
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Im down with "The Wolverine" being a complete reboot, totally recast I say!

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Old 06-19-2012, 10:28 AM   #70
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To whoever suggested John Bernthal... Bravo.

Perfect Casting. A much better choice than Jackman. He looks like Logan right out of the 80s comics.



And he's short.
Bernthal's a decent actor, but man, those EARS!!
I couldn't stop staring at them throughout both seasons of Walking Dead

Also, I once saw him at a burger place in Venice, and he has that same intense "I'm gunna shoot someone" look at all times.
We kept expecting zombies to come crashing into the place

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Old 07-16-2012, 05:22 PM   #71
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I don't feel like anyone should replace Hugh Jackman, but I think True Blood's/Magic Mike's Joe Mangianello would be great!

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Old 09-30-2012, 05:22 PM   #72
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Timothy Olyphant?
... would have been a great Cyclops back in the day.

As for Logan; the best suggestion I've seen on the Internet is Tom Hardy. Obviously he's being named mostly because he's the "flavor of the month". However, if Wolverine had to be recast, Hardy would be a decent choice. He has the talent, the precense, the sex-appeal and, with the right hair-cut and a stubble, would have an acceptable look.

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Old 09-30-2012, 06:02 PM   #73
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Most of this is futile, because we'll never get another actor as perfect for Wolverine as Charles Bronson.




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Old 10-01-2012, 01:35 AM   #74
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Dougray Scott.

Seriously though, I don't think it is time to recast. Jackman has shown tremendous loyalty to the franchise and clearly isn't ready to leave the role so why change simply for the sake of changing? I'm sure that the day will come when Wolverine needs to be recast, but it isn't here yet and therefore trying to put any contemporary actor in the role doesn't really work.
I agree. I don't think Jackman can be blamed for XMO:W - poor script, wrong director etc - and he seems determined that The Wolverine nails the character as close to his comic book counterpart as a mainstream movie possibly could. He also appears to take good care of himself, so there's no reason he can't continue to play Wolverine for a few more films yet.

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Originally Posted by webhead9707 View Post
Patrick Stewart? You would HAVE to miss Patrick Stewart.o.O
The chemistry between Stewart and McKellen seemed spot-on for Xaver and Magneto for me. I honestly can't say the same for McAvoy and Fassbender, talented as they are.

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Oh my God... you're one of them... the Clean Ones, the Untouched, the Innocents! Endgame is the Dark Knight compared to the Source. You have no idea. NO idea.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:22 AM   #75
Project862006
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Default Re: In Place of Hugh Jackman?

nick chinlund would'nt of been bad back in the day even tho he is just as tall as jackman

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