Avengers cartoon - Part 5

[Hawkingbird]

Will the Avengers Assemble cartoon be in line with Ultimate Spiderman? I hope not. The new cartoon has to be amazing to beat EMH. I don't like that it's based on the movie team with Falcon (which I'm pleased with in a way, signs that we'll be seeing him in Cap 2). I want the original team. I'm also hoping they'll have an X-Men cartoon to go with it.

[BigThor]

Originally Posted by RealIrOnMaN

Oh yeah, Lord Thor arc was pretty intense! I mean, the whole Dan Jurgens storyline was plain awesome, because he thought of everything, y'know. I think that he's one of the best Thor writers ever (right there with Walter Simonson and Jack Kirby)! He did a very magnificent job on the character development and the expansion of the legends of Asgard.

Yep Lord Thor's arc is my favorite Thor stories of the 2000s and I definately think Jurgens is a highly underrated Thor writer.

[Panthro]

Okay, just saw a few episodes out of order (connection was bad last night), I'll post in spoilers to be polite even though it's probably not necessary at this point -

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Nightmare In Red - Good. Not great, but good. Action scenes were well executed, Bruce Banner fishing while Hawkeye complains was funny, the shout out to Hulk originally being gray was funny and Hulk saying "Avengers Assemble!" was awesome.

Prisoner of War - Probably the best of the bunch I just watched out of order, though Captain America's prison beard should have been thicker after two months. The Cap Vs. Super-Skrull fight was great, as was the scene of Cap owning the fake Avengers.

Along Came A Spider - Pretty good, overall. J. Jonah Jameson was his usual unlikable petty so-drunk-on-his-own-arrogance-that-he-doesn't-care-who-he-hurts self, the civilians of the Marvel universe once again proved to be a bunch of stupid jerks who don't deserve their heroes, Cap as always proved that he's too good for the stupid citizens of the Marvel Universe, Cap's team up with Spider-Man and their fight against the Serpents were well done; the very last scene with Cap giving his seal of approval to Spidey to go terrorize JJJ was funny. While I would have preferred what was no doubt the superior original performance of previous Spidey voice actor Josh Keaton I wasn't overly annoyed with current Spidey voice actor Drake Bell; at least he had better lines here than he does on USM.

Powerless - Okay this episode is just plain stupid, like a really bad 80s cartoon stupid. Iron Man & Captain America don't even technically have powers. Being basically a very durable athlete and a highly intelligent guy in a suit are not super powers. Ms. Marvel, Wasp and/or the Hulk would have been more logical choices, but it feels as though the writers were mandated to do an episode focusing on the Big 3 - Cap, Iron Man, Thor - and put zero thought or effort into it. And Thor shouldn't need any more "learn humility episodes" by this point. He and his home world got saved by his mortal teammates at the end of season one for crying out loud! How much more humbling could a big hulking god possibly need? Seriously, a chain-smoking monkey hand-cuffed to a laptop could have written a better episode. The only things that made this episode bearable were Hawkeye, Amora, Loki and the Destroyer.

[MarvelKnight]

Yellowjacket episode was actually quite good. It was night and day compared to MoA's "Powerless" I hope more MoA episodes are in line with what yellowjacket was.

[Venomfan]

BigThor how did you find Thor in the past few episodes? the other characters are actually acting like hes a lot more powerful, and hes been showing it

[Hawkingbird]

I think there should be riots in the streets for this show being cancelled. If Avengers Assemble is anything like Ultimate Spider Man I will...will...
write a very angry letter of complaint!

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Originally Posted by SecretNerdGirl

I think there should be riots in the streets for this show being cancelled. If Avengers Assemble is anything like Ultimate Spider Man I will...will...
write a very angry letter of complaint!

with very strong words?... lol...

[MarvelKnight]

Thor is a lot more no-nonsense and imo definitely laying the smack down way more since coming back to Earth. (besides his little poor me attitude in that crap they call Powerless)

[MarvelKnight]

I'm stopping with USM after I see the Wolverine episode. I do not think I will be missing much. I have no problem watching Batman,JL/JLU, Spider-Man X-men and all the other better shows that have been put on in the past in place of the garbage we're getting in the future

[Hawkingbird]

Originally Posted by THUNDERSTRIKE

with very strong words?... lol...

I'll keep it to Cap's standards...

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Originally Posted by SecretNerdGirl

I'll keep it to Cap's standards...

I much rather prefer your b**chslap proposal that you made over in the USM thread...

[Hawkingbird]

Originally Posted by THUNDERSTRIKE

I much rather prefer your b**chslap proposal that you made over in the USM thread...

Or I could go to extremes and take the Wolverine way of doing things...or Deadpool

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Originally Posted by SecretNerdGirl

I'll keep it to Cap's standards...

Originally Posted by SecretNerdGirl

Or I could go to extremes and take the Wolverine way of doing things...or Deadpool

now what would Cap say to THAT?...

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by Dread

Episode 44, "YELLOWJACKET", is a return of writing duties by MAN OF ACTION after a refreshing two episode detour back into quality. In fairness, though, this is a much better episode than "POWERLESS" was. In fact I'd argue it's the best episode of Marvel Animation that MAN OF ACTION has yet written. Hey, a 1:10 ratio isn't too bad, is it? Yes, yes it is. But let's appreciate the one. That said, it did repeat a plot gimmick which is common in many cartoon shows and it is certainly one of the stranger episodes of the show's run in my opinion.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

This episode picks up after "TO STEAL AN ANT-MAN" but in many ways it picks up the Hank Pym subplot left from last season. By that I mean, this is the episode where Hank Pym goes bat-**** crazy. To be honest, this was not a character turn I was looking forward to, even though I know it is usually what Pym is best known for. The problem is in recent years those negative traits have become so exaggerated by writers such as Brian Bendis and Mark Millar that to many, the ONLY thing Hank Pym is known for is being a maniac who hit his wife and made Ultron. There was plenty of stuff he did before and after. It is worth noting that Spider-Man once had a story where he went buggy (catch the pun) and hit his wife MJ in the 90's - a moment even immortalized in "SPIDER-MAN 3" - yet almost nobody merely refers to Spider-Man as "the guy who hit his wife". Hell, Mr. Fantastic's on and off verbal abuse and belittlement of Invisible Girl throughout the 60's and 70's is something that's rarely mentioned and at worst he's neglectful because he's busy being awesome. My point is that when a character is only defined by their flaws and worst moments, they become a shell rather than something interesting. I feared how this show would handle Pym and more often than not I was pleased. Sure, he was always odd and neurotic, but he wasn't some deranged maniac and served well in their role as science hero. Well, this episode changes all that - Hank Pym goes insane. Thankfully, no Wasps were hit in the making of this episode.

Tony Stark and Janet visit Pym in his college campus lab, and find it in complete disarray, along with Pym himself. He's unshaven and rambling like a mad-man about his new "Big House" prison, the shrunken down prison he ran for SHIELD before the Avengers assembled during "THE BREAK OUT". Concerned for both his mental health and his unsafe use of dangerous materials, Tony and Jan want him to come with them for help...until Pym is blown up. We get a funeral for Ant-Man (although why nobody remembers he was Giant-Man half the time is beyond me) in which virtually every superhero who has shown up before turns up - including Vision, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, and the Fantastic Four. The team in general and Janet in particular are crushed to have lost their founding comrade in such a random manner, until it stands revealed that Pym's death was no accident - the explosion was deliberately triggered. Pym had been keeping tabs on the Serpent Society, although a new vigilante has emerged in NYC. He's named Yellowjacket and his theme appears to be blasting the members of the Serpent Society to nothingness, commanding swarms of bees, flying without wings, and talking in some borderline ridiculous "Dirty Harry" imitation dialogue. The idea of someone stealing Pym's inventions and using it without him is naturally also a theme from "TO STEAL AN ANT-MAN", something Pym settled on his own with the Heroes for Hire (although presumably the Avengers may eventually notice a new Ant-Man running around). While there is no love for the Serpent Society, this Yellowjacket is considered unstable and the Avengers seek to bring him in - especially when he brags about being the one who killed Pym. And who is Yellowjacket? Despite having a different body type and signature, Wasp is sure it's Pym - call it her "Psycho Man Sense" which attracted Michael Korvac to her. It turns out that she's right, only Yellowjacket appears to be a completely new personality who considers Pym someone else and someone "weaker", worthy of being killed off. Just when everyone is a mix of enraged and confused as hell, Yellowjacket's gun gets mangled and everyone is trapped in his new "Big House" prison; only now it is shrinking out of control and about to crush them all.

Thus we get another episode in which some Avengers are stuck in a situation where they're all about to die and they have to ask the Serpent Society for help, and the Serpents instead battle them to the last. This happened in "ALONG CAME A SPIDER" and with King Cobra in "PRISONERS OF WAR", practically. At the very least, they're consistent villains. Viper herself isn't anywhere to be seen but to be honest she'd probably have cluttered the episode further. There is a bit of "the shrinking episode" gimmick here as everyone is shrunken and that's about to kill them, but thankfully it isn't run into the ground like "POWERLESS" was. Apparently Yellowjacket is better at zapping people and talking in a raspy voice than he is at science, so everyone has to eventually shake Pym out of him to save the day. Then comes the weird ending where Pym is still very much in his new personality as Yellowjacket and mad as a hatter, yet the Avengers still keep him aboard - mostly because Wasp begs them. I know this is from the comics but as an episode in itself on TV, it all seems very bizarre.

Remember an episode of "THE NEW GOTHAM ADVENTURES" called "JUDGEMENT DAY" from 1998? In that episode Harvey Dent, who already has a split personality as Two-Face, develops a third personality as "The Judge", a brutal vigilante. None of the personalities are aware of the other to the point that the Judge wants to kill Two-Face and vice versa. At the end of the episode, Dent naturally winds up in his usual straight jacket in Arkham. Imagine if years later in "JLU" when they expanded the roster, Batman went to his pals and said, "Look, Harvey Dent used to be my friend and a good D.A., and he's a total lunatic, but when he's the Judge he could be good back-up if we encourage him to not be as violent and not switch to Two-Face. So how about we induct the Judge into the team and I'll monitor him." At that point I imagine everyone would look at Batman and assume he was telling a dark joke, but this episode of "A:EMH" comes very close to that. On the other hand, the Creeper WAS very much a member of the expended "JLU", and Batman was very much aware that The Creeper was a completely insane TV reporter who was dunked into chemicals by Joker but wound up so crazy that even Joker wanted away from him. "BEWARE THE CREEPER" ended with Batman insisting that Jack Ryder take patches to prevent becoming "The Creeper", but he obviously didn't and Batman apparently later was just fine having him join the "JLU" alongside Supergirl, Steel, Green Arrow and the rest. And while I am playing Devil's Advocate, "A:EMH" made it very clear that the Hulk was Bruce Banner's second personality, to the point that they would "talk" to each other within their minds only to everyone else it would look like Banner or Hulk were talking to themselves. The Avengers were therefore just fine with having Banner's split persona who disliked Banner be a founding member of the team because he was good at smashing. So I guess the moral is that if you're insane and dress in a costume and take politicians hostage (like Lock-Up in "LOCK-UP", from "B:TAS" circa 1994), you're a criminal and you go down. But if you're insane and dress in a costume and basically scare the wits out of criminals like the Creeper or Yellowjacket, than instead of a padded cell you too can join the earth's mightiest heroes!

Still, as crazy as Hulk and Banner may be, the Hulk never tried to KILL Banner in the presence of the Avengers - although he did make Banner agree to become the secondary persona in exchange for Hulk being a hero. Yellowjacket tried to blow up "Pym", and nearly killed Wasp if not for Iron Man, and basically kidnapped the Serpent Society against their will very much like Lock-Up would do to criminals. This also seemed sudden because there was no obvious "trigger" for Pym; he's been trying to quit being a superhero almost since he became an Avenger, and now all of a sudden he makes a personality who is a hardcore vigilante? I do suppose it is a slow burn thing; the "Big House" failed, he failed to rehabilitate any of the super-villains, he built Ultron and Ultron turned on him, and his Ant-Man gear was stolen from under him by a janitor. The bit in the comics where Pym desired Wasp's approval doesn't work because in this series, Wasp usually did approve of him; Pym usually rejected it to deny being a hero unless she was in trouble in his presence.

I'll be blunt; I have NEVER liked Yellowjacket. It just never sat with me, neither the design or the brash demeanor. Pym's worst moments were under that persona, to the point that in the comic book SECRET INVASION, his Skrull imposter took that form. I could accept Giant-Man or Ant-Man but I always preferred just Doctor Pym from the 90's; no limitations or gimmicks and just pure science hero. After all, almost nobody still calls Reed Richards "Mister Fantastic". Thus, while this episode did do a lot to try to make Yellowjacket seem edgy and threatening - mission accomplished - it's a turn that I haven't been eager for regardless of who wrote it. I'm not entirely thrilled that the last we see of Pym in this show as it winds down is as the insane Yellowjacket, the house nut who is there to fill the "unstable member spot" left void by the Hulk lately. While it is all interesting and holds my attention, I certainly prefer Season 1 Pym to Season 2 Pym.

Overall, though, still a decent episode and the best from MAN OF ACTION yet. Which, trust me, was not a very high bar.

MoA have done some good work on Ben 10, but I wouldn't expect you to ever acknowledge that. Just like before this show started you didn't think Chris Yost could handle or was qualified enough to be in charge of a show like this.

[Quasimod0]

I actually enjoyed powerless. I think it was a great episode for cap because no matter how skinny he was, he did not give up. His real strength comes from inside. They handled that well I thought.

[BigThor]

Originally Posted by Venomfan

BigThor how did you find Thor in the past few episodes? the other characters are actually acting like hes a lot more powerful, and hes been showing it

Dude for the most part I've been THOROUGHLY impressed, Thor hasn't been getting thrown around by anyone that shouldn't be able to throw him around. He lifted that huge piece of the street in "Along Came Spidey", finished off Anihhilus in "Assault On 42", and he landed the killing blow on Ultron in "Ultron Unlimited".

Oh and it was pretty awesome seeing Yellowjacket avoid him instead of going toe to toe with him like he did with Cap and Panther. Thor even stopped the micro-prison from caving in on The Avengers at the end of the episode.

Originally Posted by MarvelKnight

Thor is a lot more no-nonsense and imo definitely laying the smack down way more since coming back to Earth. (besides his little poor me attitude in that crap they call Powerless)

Hell yeah, I was like "now THIS is how Thor is suppose to be handled" and I noticed that he isn't treated that way when Hulk is around.

[MarvelKnight]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

MoA have done some good work on Ben 10, but I wouldn't expect you to ever acknowledge that. Just like before this show started you didn't think Chris Yost could handle or was qualified enough to be in charge of a show like this.

Maybe I'm one of the few, but I have enjoyed every one of Ben10's series..However, Powerless was GOD-EFFING-AWFUL...

If MoA can keep in line with what they did with Yellowjacket, which I thought was definitely above average, I'll be happy the rest of this season. I just don't want inconsistent garbage.

[MarvelKnight]

Originally Posted by Quasimod0

I actually enjoyed powerless. I think it was a great episode for cap because no matter how skinny he was, he did not give up. His real strength comes from inside. They handled that well I thought.

Cap was never out of character..I'll give you that, he was great through and through.

I just didn't like how they essentially made "Thor" the movie into an animated episode like that. There was no suspense and frankly it was just ******** and bad.

But again, Cap was Cap no matter what. Which was nice to see.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by MarvelKnight

Maybe I'm one of the few, but I have enjoyed every one of Ben10's series..However, Powerless was GOD-EFFING-AWFUL...

If MoA can keep in line with what they did with Yellowjacket, which I thought was definitely above average, I'll be happy the rest of this season. I just don't want inconsistent garbage.

I don't know what was awful about it. I loved seeing the Destroyer animated like that.

To me it reinforces that all of the Avengers are more than just their weapons, their armor, or their powers. It's their strength of character, integrity, and determination that makes the difference. Also, we got great material with Hawkeye joking around about the guys not having their best day since Hawkeye is always the bow and arrow guy. He's a regular human being without special powers and yet in this episode he's the one having to save their necks since his teammates are now at physical disadvantages.

[Dread]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

MoA have done some good work on Ben 10, but I wouldn't expect you to ever acknowledge that. Just like before this show started you didn't think Chris Yost could handle or was qualified enough to be in charge of a show like this.

I specifically noted MoA's work on Marvel Animation in my review for the comparison; I did not specify of all time with other franchises:
"In fact I'd argue it's the best episode of Marvel Animation that MAN OF ACTION has yet written."

I've never watched "BEN 10" or "GENERATOR REX", nor have I been inspired to.

[Hawkingbird]

Originally Posted by THUNDERSTRIKE

now what would Cap say to THAT?...

He would probably join me if he saw the awfulness that is Ultimate Spiderman....

[mehrabix]

Originally Posted by Dread

My ALONG CAME A SPIDER review is here: Keep in mind that when I mentioned certain episode themes, I didn't JUST mean superhero episodes. Plenty of other shows had the amnesia episode, the shrinking episode, the powerless episode, etc. Off the top of my head, HE-MAN AND THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE had HE-MAN'S QUEST as the amnesia episode, written by Paul Dini no less - and it was dreadful. Seriously, He-Man fights a purple rabbit named Plunder. FANTASTIC FOUR: WORLD'S GREATEST HEROES didn't have a everyone loses their powers episode, but they DID have a mind-swap episode (DOOMED), the shrinking episode (WORLD'S TINIEST HEROES), the amnesia episode (THE CURE), and the power-swap episode (BAIT AND SWITCH). Now, that isn't to say one can't make a good episode out of these endlessly repeated plots. THE CURE for instance was written by Dan Slott and was easily the best episode of the show. JLU did THE GREAT BRAIN ROBBERY swapping Flash's mind with Lex Luthor and it was also handled well. Usually, though, they wind up bland.

Thank you Dread for your wonderful reviews. you are the greatest!Two questions: 1- Is there anywhere else where I can read all your reviews? (I am especially interested in reading your reviews on Spectacular Spider-Man episodes)2- At what point do you think Mockingbird was replaced by Skrulls, before Fury left shield? After he left but before Cap was replaced? I have watched Widow's Sting and all the Skrull-related episodes several times and I am still in the dark!

[IronGirl299]

Only watched The Ballad of Beta Ray Bill and got mindblown. Terrific on all counts, especially the music, and when Thor yelled 'Come, Bill--to battle!' I jumped for joy. Great episode.

[Cyclonus]

Has anyone seen the Emperor Stark episode yet?

[RealIrOnMaN]

Originally Posted by Cyclonus

Has anyone seen the Emperor Stark episode yet?

Not yet, but it'll be available during this week, as well as Code Red, Winter Soldier and Deadliest Man Alive.