BEWARE Spoilers: 11.2 - DETECTIVE - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[RavenX]

oh, and is this supposed to be an actual comic or still a digital comic??

[Llama_Shepherd]

Now that I've had time to think it over:

He's made Stephanie far more important to Batman than she is in a role that, given his justification for her use, and the identity, should have been fulfilled by Grayson. Although she was decent as Batgirl, written by Miller, to me she will never ascend to anything higher than a supporting character to Tim Drake, hence why she was the lowest ranked member of the Bat-Family. He passed over several better characters for a character he is already familiar with and I bet will turn into a Mary Sue.

I don't don't like that, I don't like Batman's look and I'm not going to pick this up.

[RavenX]

eh.......I don't really mind. It's a different universe, so I'm willing to see how it goes.

I've always wondered what Steph would be like as Nightwing. Besides, this Steph could be portrayed much stronger.

[Dangerman]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

Now that I've had time to think it over:

He's made Stephanie far more important to Batman than she is in a role that, given his justification for her use, and the identity, should have been fulfilled by Grayson. Although she was decent as Batgirl, written by Miller, to me she will never ascend to anything higher than a supporting character to Tim Drake, hence why she was the lowest ranked member of the Bat-Family. He passed over several better characters for a character he is already familiar with and I bet will turn into a Mary Sue.

I don't don't like that, I don't like Batman's look and I'm not going to pick this up.

Agreed on Steph's role and place in the Bat family. Even in Batgirl she really didn't get a chance to shine because the book was cancelled before she could. Also as you said I will always she her as Tim's girlfriend. She is a supporting cast member of Tim Drake more than she was Batman. But I will still give it a shot since I am a SV fan and a Superman fan but I disagree with using her. I would have been ok with any of the four Robins but her. I get the reason for why the JL turned out the way it did on the show and that was because over 95% of the league was tied up in movie rights so I get Flash, Cyborg and AC. But when you're off the air and have the DCU at your feet I don't get why you would use Steph when Dick could serve in that role unless they make Steph his lover or something like that as well.

Originally Posted by RavenX

eh.......I don't really mind. It's a different universe, so I'm willing to see how it goes.

I've always wondered what Steph would be like as Nightwing. Besides, this Steph could be portrayed much stronger.

I hope you're right.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by RavenX

I like that!!

but I wish she still had blonde hair, though.....

On Bryan Q. Miller's twitter he said the black hair is really a wig and she still a blonde.

[RavenX]

Originally Posted by ironman29758

On Bryan Q. Miller's twitter he said the black hair is really a wig and she still a blonde.

really??!! cool!!

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Dangerman

But its still a Batman fans right to complain when it is their hero being dealt with. There is nothing wrong with them voicing their outrage or stating how they feel. Just like there was nothing wrong when Alan Scott fans got upset when they turned their hero gay before reading it or new 52 Superman's outfit. I actually can see why some fans might prejudge this book because given SV past history when using other heroes (not written by Johns) they have a right to be worried. However even though this might not be the exact same thing as long as it carries the name people will always worry. That's just SV curse now. The sad part is it turned many comic fans off that you prejudge it and move on when really this is a great book.

Fans prejudging something is maybe why I'm prejudiced towards them as well. I don't understand what the big deal is in turning Alan Scott gay, his personality traits are not defined by his sexuality and fans complaining about this I view it simply as homophobic. Like I said, they have the right to praise or criticize anything they want, I'm simply annoyed by how they take it too far every time something doesn't go according to their delight, again without knowing anything about it. In my opinion Smallville hasn't done nearly as bad with most comicbook characters as they say it did and I could never understand moaning about changing the characters and mythos in a show, where the exact goal was to show something different in the first place. I don't like these guys cuz most times they are illogical and they **** on anything they don't seem to understand.

[Webhead2006]

I too wish we had the better covers for print ones. But heck some times I don't care for covers its what's in the book I am really looking for.

Also interesting move going with a female sidekick for the smallville story. I do wonder if there is/going to be a male robin/female batgirl in the sv universe too. I don't know much on the stephaine brown character. So I am not to made there. Just more curious why she is going with the knightwing mantle. Compared to just being robin/batgirl/spoiler names she has gone for in regular dc books.

[JosephCAW]

not a big surprise, Smallville`s done this before, for example Green Arrow in the comics had Roy Harper as his first side kick, on Smallville he went straight to Mia Darden (or however you spell her last name).

It`s dumb and wasn't justified, but they did it anyway so now that the shows a comic now why should it be any different.

The did the same thing with Blue Beetle, granted Ted Kord was in the show but he was completely bypassed as Blue Beetle, and Barry Allen & Wally West as the Flash, fake I.D.`s dont count since Bart also had one that said Jay Garrick and yet jay actually was shown in the Absolute Justice episodes.

When they finally get Wonder Woman on the show there probably gonna skip past Donna Troy too.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Flash never bothered since Bart and Barry have the same full name: Bartholomew Allen. Speedy didn't bother me, because Roy was one of the heroes who did more not being a sidekick, so if he were introduced as Arsenal or Red Arrow, that would be better.

But Stephanie has never been all that important to Bruce. As Spoiler, she was a supporting character to the third Robin, as Batgirl she was a subordinate to Dick as Batman, when Bruce was dead, and when he returned he sent her away to another country, because essentially, if she doesn't do as he wants, he'll shut her down.

The only time he ever actually trusted her was because he knew that Tim would need some support after his death.

But now she has been given an identity which was never hers, made famous by a better, more iconic Batman partner with a personality that compliments Batman better.

It's an awful decision made by Miller because he likes Stephanie, not because he likes Batman.

To give an allegory to another hero, it would be like Flash in this universe, let's say he's grown up and called Barry now, having Bart as his sidekick, despite the fact that Barry's sidekick is Wally and Bart is Wally's and that Barry and Bart have only interacted in a handful of issues in their entire histories and pretending their is some deep meaning to their relationship between them despite Bart only ever knowing Barry as a story.

There is nothing in established canon that would even suggest Stephanie should ever be Batman's sidekick.

[Dangerman]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

Flash never bothered since Bart and Barry have the same full name: Bartholomew Allen. Speedy didn't bother me, because Roy was one of the heroes who did more not being a sidekick, so if he were introduced as Arsenal or Red Arrow, that would be better.

But Stephanie has never been all that important to Bruce. As Spoiler, she was a supporting character to the third Robin, as Batgirl she was a subordinate to Dick as Batman, when Bruce was dead, and when he returned he sent her away to another country, because essentially, if she doesn't do as he wants, he'll shut her down.

The only time he ever actually trusted her was because he knew that Tim would need some support after his death.

But now she has been given an identity which was never hers, made famous by a better, more iconic Batman partner with a personality that compliments Batman better.

It's an awful decision made by Miller because he likes Stephanie, not because he likes Batman.

To give an allegory to another hero, it would be like Flash in this universe, let's say he's grown up and called Barry now, having Bart as his sidekick, despite the fact that Barry's sidekick is Wally and Bart is Wally's and that Barry and Bart have only interacted in a handful of issues in their entire histories and pretending their is some deep meaning to their relationship between them despite Bart only ever knowing Barry as a story.

There is nothing in established canon that would even suggest Stephanie should ever be Batman's sidekick.

Well there was that short time she was Robin but even then Batman didn't want her as Robin. Miller is using her because he feels he has unfinished work with her IMO. Oh well I'm still going to pick it up. I just don't care for the choice of sidekick though.

[Webhead2006]

Well sure I don't like she will be called knightwing but shouldn't we wait to see what is the story first before we say it was crap call.

[Llama_Shepherd]

We don't have to. That is a genuinely terrible call.

If for example, a solicitation were to reveal Superman was going to murder someone, no matter what the context, that's a bad decision.

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

If for example, a solicitation were to reveal Superman was going to murder someone, no matter what the context, that's a bad decision.

This is the worst comparison I've ever read. Nightwing being someone else then Dick Grayson is as bad as Superman killing someone? Yeah, just what I said about fans earlier. In this continuity Stephanie may be much more important to Bruce. For all we know Dick Grayson might not even exist here. Look at this idea without any bias, stop comparing it to the main continuity and who was important and who was not. We don't know how Batman's life was like in here or what sidekicks he had or not. That's why we should wait to read it first.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Johnny

This is the worst comparison I've ever read. Nightwing being someone else then Dick Grayson is as bad as Superman killing someone? Yeah, just what I said about fans earlier. In this continuity Stephanie may be much more important to Bruce. For all we know Dick Grayson might not even exist here. Look at this idea without any bias, stop comparing it to the main continuity and who was important and who was not. We don't know how Batman's life was like in here or what sidekicks he had or not. That's why we should wait to read it first.

Okay though, Superman is sort of a bad example given he has established character in this world, but if it's a new continuity, why can't Batman be the sidekick, to, let's say the Flash or Aquaman, I mean why not? New continuity.

[Johnny]

Maybe because Batman has never been known to be a sidekick, new continuity or not. With Dick Grayson is different cuz most people heard about Robin not Nightwing and they know Robin as Batman's sidekick. General audience probably never heard of the Nightwing persona in the first place. With Batman is the exact opposite. No matter what Elseworlds they use, he would never be anyone's sidekick and everyone is aware of that. He would either work solo or have subordinates or Bruce Wayne would've never became Batman in the first place but never a sidekick. No writer is crazy enough to do something like that, Elseworlds or not. The Nightwing/Stephanie Brown issue is not nearly as ridiculous as something like that. Sorry, another poor example on your part.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Johnny

Maybe because Batman has never been known to be a sidekick, new continuity or not.

Batman played sidekick here.

With Dick Grayson is different cuz most people heard about Robin not Nightwing and they know Robin as Batman's sidekick. General audience probably never heard of the Nightwing persona in the first place.

Oh, and this comic book is aimed at who, exactly?

With Batman is the exact opposite. No matter what Elseworlds they use, he would never be anyone's sidekick and everyone is aware of that. He would either work solo or have subordinates or Bruce Wayne would've never became Batman in the first place but never a sidekick.

Flashpoint (yeah, Thomas, but whatevs Batman), Thrillkiller. The latter of which is considered one of the best Batman elseworld tales.

No writer is crazy enough to do something like that, Elseworlds or not. The Nightwing/Stephanie Brown issue is not nearly as ridiculous as something like that.

Except one of the better elseworld tales.

Sorry, another poor example on your part.

Not really, I did it sort of as a bait, because, you don't seem to be a comic reader. This comic is not for the general audience. This is not the show, it is not read by 2 million people, it is a comic book, for the comic book audience and passed over the iconic sidekick of Dick Grayson, or even the later, actual sidekicks of Jason, Tim and Barbara in favour of a character that was a "sidekick" to Batman in the loosest sense of the term in that the only reason it happened for all of two months was so she could be killed off and it would be a surprise.

[Johnny]

Like I said - he's never been KNOWN to be a sidekick by the audience. If he was in a tale or two, fine. But not really known for it. Also, Batman/Thomas wasn't a sidekick in Flashpoint. He was a supporting character, there is a difference. You don't seem to get that. I've been a comicbook reader for years just not your typical one cuz usually I'm disgusted by most comic fans. I was actually one of the few people supporting the New 52 movement when it was announced. Turned out to be ok in the end. Smallville is as much for non-comic readers as for comic fans. I've heard from many people who read the comic and have only watched the show before, and they didn't know who Nightwing was in the first place let alone Red Hood, Tim Drake or Damian. There's no "the" iconic sidekick in Smallville or if there is or was, we're yet to find out about it. There is a reason Miller chose Stephanie beside the fact that he seems to have a personal connection to the character.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Johnny

Like I said - he's never been KNOWN to be a sidekick by the audience. If he was in a tale or two, fine. But not really known for it.

That miniseries has Bruce Wayne as a sidekick to Barbara Gordon more than Stephanie had been to Bruce Wayne.

Also, Batman/Thomas wasn't a sidekick in Flashpoint. He was a supporting character, there is a difference. You don't seem to get that.

He played second fiddle to Flash and followed his orders because Flash was the only person who could save the day, he fulfilled the sidekick role.

I've been a comicbook reader for years just not your typical one cuz usually I'm disgusted by most comic fans. I was actually one of the few people supporting the New 52 movement when it was announced. Turned out to be ok in the end.

What does the New 52 have to do with Smallville?

Smallville is as much for non-comic readers as for comic fans. I've heard from many people who read the comic and have only watched the show before, and they didn't know who Nightwing was in the first place let alone Red Hood, Tim Drake or Damian.

Smallville: The Comic Book is not appealing to the mass audience though. Not like the TV show did. It's biggest success will undoubtedly be from the market already established and the market this story exists in.

There's no "the" iconic sidekick in Smallville or if there is or was, we're yet to find out about it.

The reason that Dick Grayson's Robin is the iconic sidekick is because he is a pop culture icon. Smallville doesn't account into that, it is a very small portion of the genre, not the entirety of it, the show didn't exactly have a huge effect, but that's normal now, Heath Ledger's Joker is not the norm.

There is a reason Miller chose Stephanie beside the fact that he seems to have a personal connection to the character.

The only reason he gave is because she has a bright personality. If only a character already existed like that, and had a codename like Nightwing.

[Johnny]

I don't care to what extent Batman was a sidekick to someone in some mini-series, Batman is not known by any type of audience to be primarily a sidekick. There's no point to introduce him in a whole different and popular universe and make him one. The New 52 was an example about fans complaining about something like this here, which I chose to keep an open mind for, like I do for this here, not that it was connected to Smallville specifically. I don't care to what fans the comic tries to appeal, fact is both fans and non-fans read it and not all of them know or mind changes in certain specifics about characters like Batman's different sidekicks. OK, Dick Grayson is the most famous sidekick, Barry Allen is the most famous Flash too but they used Bart in the show not him, even though at first it may not make sense to use him in stead of the more popular ones. Here is the same thing - they didn't choose the most popular Robin or Nightwing but someone else. Big deal, Bart Allen was never the best known speedster and they showed him well on the show, what is the problem in trying the same with Stephanie, despite her never been a prominent sidekick before, too? I honestly don't understand what's your problem with this.

[Webhead2006]

Oh come on big deal she is called knightwing like I said I don't know much on character but bqm probably has a good story in mind. So let's judge the story when we have all the details.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Johnny

I don't care to what extent Batman was a sidekick to someone in some mini-series, Batman is not known by any type of audience to be primarily a sidekick.

Unlike Stephanie? Who was a sidekick for 2 months of her twenty ish year existence. So less than 1/100th of her history is as a sidekick, in a story in which, the writers themselves wanted no part in.

There's no point to introduce him in a whole different and popular universe and make him one.

Just like how I see there's no point in bringing in Stephanie Brown, over any of Bruce Wayne's sidekicks, especially Grayson, who has the closest relationship with Batman and Superman, or Drake who was Superboy's best friend.

The New 52 was an example about fans complaining about something like this here, which I chose to keep an open mind for, like I do for this here, not that it was connected to Smallville specifically.

Ah, okay. In that case, I too enjoy the New 52 immensely, aside from a few things.

I don't care to what fans the comic tries to appeal, fact is both fans and non-fans read it and not all of them know or mind changes in certain specifics about characters like Batman's different sidekicks.

Well, considering most of the audience will be comic readers, I'd bet most do know Bruce's sidekicks.

OK, Dick Grayson is the most famous sidekick, Barry Allen is the most famous Flash too but they used Bart in the show not him, even though at first it may not make sense to use him in stead of the more popular ones.

Well, I don't think Barry is the most popular Flash, I'd say Wally is, due to Barry having being dead up until 2008 and Wally having been in the DCAU, and in any case, like I said before, Barry and Bart have the same name, I'd rather see Bart grow up to be Barry than be Impulse forever.

Here is the same thing - they didn't choose the most popular Robin or Nightwing but someone else.

Not really, because Stephanie wasn't ever a member of Bruce's supporting cast, she was a member of Tim's and Steph and Bruce have shared little interaction in her entire history.

And for the record, they didn't choose any Nightwing.

Big deal, Bart Allen was never the best known speedster and they showed him well on the show, what is the problem in trying the same with Stephanie, despite her never been a prominent sidekick before, too? I honestly don't understand what's your problem with this.

I've already stated my problem, there are several, better and more suited characters, instead they are being passed over for a character who hasn't ever fulfilled the sidekick role for more than a cheap stunt to kill her off, because the writer likes that different character more. I'd rather Batman remain alone rather than have Stephanie Brown, someone elses support character, be used, especially with a better characters codename.



It's just my preference. You don't have to agree. I think Smallville made plenty of other mistakes too, it's not like it's something new. However, I had been waiting for Batman since Adam Knight was introduced, and including Steph, of all characters has ruined it for me. I don't want to see it.

[Rockstar]

Llama, who cares what they do in the comics? Seriously, the show is over.


This comic is pretty much BQM's fanfiction of how he'd continue Smallville. It doesn't surprise me he tossed Stephanie Brown in there.

It makes no difference though in the big picture.


They might as well use this comic to give some less popular characters like her some exposure.

I think they should use Guy, Kyle or a completely new character as GL.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Again, it's just my preference. Same way you didn't care for some (most?) things from Smallville. I don't like this. Not one bit. Original characters I have no problem with. However, I do have a gripe in needlessly changing characters, especially since this alters the rest of the bat family.


And actually, like you said, shows over, so I'm not gonna bother reading anymore.

[KalKai]

What a tragedy. BQM will surely lose sleep over this.