The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 7

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

The thing is, Sam limited the scope of his characters. He threw everything into Peter and Mary Jane instead of trying to set out with an ensemble of characters to develop over the course of the films.

In Spider-Man 3, Mary Jane having to deal with the worry that Peter wouldn't come home after a night out fighting crime would probably be the way to go. Since Sam likes Sandman, consider if he'd had Flint Marko as the leader of a street gang that is taken apart by Spider-Man and Captain Stacy.

To begin with, the sheer amount of people involved in the fighting--Marko's thugs, plus another guy's thugs (Schultz's for a Shocker cameo perhaps?) would be taxing on Spider-Man. He'd come home looking like hell. It might affect his work at the Bugle and put his freelance work with them in danger.

Harry could've come to terms with his father's evils in murdering the board members, attacking the parade goers, etc. but still held a grudge against Spider-Man. And thus set out to prove that he's not the hero that New York believes him to be.

Harry's fate as GG2 wasn't decided at the end of Spider-Man 2. It was still up in the air, though there was a heavy leaning toward him taking on the Goblin mantle.

Anywho, after puting a sizeable dent in Marko and Shocker's thugs, one or the other could've learned about Spider-Man's connection to Mary Jane, and thus went after her family.

All could've could've could've. Just ideas on where Sam could've () went with Peter and Mary Jane.

[Spider-Aziz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

The thing is, Sam limited the scope of his characters. He threw everything into Peter and Mary Jane instead of trying to set out with an ensemble of characters to develop over the course of the films.

With that, he still didn't make Peter right

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

In Spider-Man 3, Mary Jane having to deal with the worry that Peter wouldn't come home after a night out fighting crime would probably be the way to go. Since Sam likes Sandman, consider if he'd had Flint Marko as the leader of a street gang that is taken apart by Spider-Man and Captain Stacy.

To begin with, the sheer amount of people involved in the fighting--Marko's thugs, plus another guy's thugs (Schultz's for a Shocker cameo perhaps?) would be taxing on Spider-Man. He'd come home looking like hell. It might affect his work at the Bugle and put his freelance work with them in danger.

Harry could've come to terms with his father's evils in murdering the board members, attacking the parade goers, etc. but still held a grudge against Spider-Man. And thus set out to prove that he's not the hero that New York believes him to be.

Harry's fate as GG2 wasn't decided at the end of Spider-Man 2. It was still up in the air, though there was a heavy leaning toward him taking on the Goblin mantle.

Anywho, after puting a sizeable dent in Marko and Shocker's thugs, one or the other could've learned about Spider-Man's connection to Mary Jane, and thus went after her family.

All could've could've could've. Just ideas on where Sam could've () went with Peter and Mary Jane.

Fine plot, I like it

[Spider-Fan]

I am just shocked more people don't find Magneto's plan silly. It's just...so silly!

[roach]

I don't find it silly. Short sighted--yes but the villain thats trying to do good thru evil means usually is.
In the deleted scenes Storm is teaching the class about Christianity. In the scene she mentions that Christians in ancient Rome were killed because of their beliefs and that it didn't become accepted until the Emperor became a Christian. Which parallels Magneto's plan.

Here is how Magneto's plan would play out in his mind:
Mutate the rulers of the world at the UN festival or whatever it was.
Obama becomes a mutant with the ability to absorb sunlight and convert it into heat rays or something. He has an ability he can hide. To look at him you couldn't tell if there was anything different...but he knows. A few months later he comes out in an interview that he feels mutants shouldn't be persecuted and they are people too. Anti mutant legislation hits his desk and he vetoes it. Obama becomes the first sitting president to stand for mutant rights. It now becomes popular to be ok with mutants. Sure there is a few knuckle heads but the general masses they fall in line with the president especially after a few famous people come out as mutants..."Alison Blaire came out as a mutant??? but I love her music...I guess they aren't all that bad" "Lila Cheney too oh wow"

see this is the rosy world according to Magneto. He's arrogant. Why would my plan fail? I thought it up. Why are you X-men against me when I am trying to save us?

Every super villain's plan is done in by shortsighted-ness
I didn't count on human nature
I didn't count on needing to put a photon torpedo field around the port shaft or the Death Star
I didn't count on Superman being fast enough to stop the rocket
I didn't count on Batman being that intelligent
I didn't count on the Avengers to take Coulson's death seriously
I didn't count on Perseus being able to get the head of Medusa
I didn't count on Spider-man being able to flip out of the way of the goblin glider
I didn't count on the Incredibles to fight as a family

it goes on and on and on...

[Spider-Aziz]

Magneto's plan isn't silly, "either mutating the crap out of non-mutants or kill them", in this case it was let them suffer till they die, to hunt and torment us they should be taught a lesson. So I don't find it silly, sorry Spider-Fan

I finally saw -I think, and hope- Blu Ray on display in a theater room for a fancy residential building here, my brother said it was Spider-Man 3, I didn't look enough, but image look terrific, like a real cinema house

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by roach

I don't find it silly. Short sighted--yes but the villain thats trying to do good thru evil means usually is.
In the deleted scenes Storm is teaching the class about Christianity. In the scene she mentions that Christians in ancient Rome were killed because of their beliefs and that it didn't become accepted until the Emperor became a Christian. Which parallels Magneto's plan.

Here is how Magneto's plan would play out in his mind:
Mutate the rulers of the world at the UN festival or whatever it was.
Obama becomes a mutant with the ability to absorb sunlight and convert it into heat rays or something. He has an ability he can hide. To look at him you couldn't tell if there was anything different...but he knows. A few months later he comes out in an interview that he feels mutants shouldn't be persecuted and they are people too. Anti mutant legislation hits his desk and he vetoes it. Obama becomes the first sitting president to stand for mutant rights. It now becomes popular to be ok with mutants. Sure there is a few knuckle heads but the general masses they fall in line with the president especially after a few famous people come out as mutants..."Alison Blaire came out as a mutant??? but I love her music...I guess they aren't all that bad" "Lila Cheney too oh wow"

see this is the rosy world according to Magneto. He's arrogant. Why would my plan fail? I thought it up. Why are you X-men against me when I am trying to save us?

Every super villain's plan is done in by shortsighted-ness
I didn't count on human nature
I didn't count on needing to put a photon torpedo field around the port shaft or the Death Star
I didn't count on Superman being fast enough to stop the rocket
I didn't count on Batman being that intelligent
I didn't count on the Avengers to take Coulson's death seriously
I didn't count on Perseus being able to get the head of Medusa
I didn't count on Spider-man being able to flip out of the way of the goblin glider
I didn't count on the Incredibles to fight as a family

it goes on and on and on...

The problem is that Magneto's plan reflected naivete' and Magneto shouldn't be naive. Not as a Holocaust survivor, man of the world and leader of the Brotherhood. He should be informed, well-read, and extremely knowledgeable about human history, human nature (Know your enemy) and the probability of his plan working. But this isn't a problem of Magneto. It's a problem of Hollywood/Comic book writing. It's the same reason why so many comic book fans thought Watchmen was deep, when it was so childish. Ozymandias' plan in both comic form and movie form was even sillier and doomed to failure than Magneto's. It wouldn't have been more than a few months before the world was back at odds with each other.

The Goblin's plan, which folks here are panning- was simple and surely reflected a disturbed mind (Which Magneto isn't supposed to be) but it wasn't short-sighted. It is, again, what so many have put into play in real life, with varying degrees of success. Making use of one's power to increase one's reach and level of control. Seek-out like minded individuals and add to your own strength. Destroy those who would stand against you. The real problem with it is that the Goblin chose public displays of his destructive power, rather than making clandestine strikes. But again, he was nuts.

[A Necessary Evil]

X-Men is a very goofy movie, with a very goofy evil plot behind it. Yes, I still really like it, but recent veiwings have had me describe it as (while not bad at all!) lesser than X2/XMFC, though I still say FC was the best, and x2 is just a little overrated.

[Kryptonian Warrior]

Hey I'm sure you guys have probably already seen this by now, but Amazon UK has the newly released Blu Ray boxset for just under $19 US dollars, and that's with shipping included! Granted that's to where I live, so I'm sure the shipping costs will vary from person to person

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...pf_rd_i=468294

[A Necessary Evil]

Those covers are better than the us ones...

It's such a missed oppurtunity they didn't release 3.1

[The Joker]

I saw these in stores yesterday. I was tempted to buy them because they had extras on them like the bloopers and commentaries etc. Plus the covers were the good ones. They gave those crappy ones to the DVDs.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by roach

um its not the same story four times
1) He didn't have a relationship with MJ in the first one
2) At the end of the movie they started dating
3) At the beginning he is about to propose but screws up everything
4) They start over with their relationship
5) They get married

Still....saving MJ again in the end will be exactly the same as the other three.

And #5 should be....Mary Jane dies. Hell, if Raimi wanted to screw the mythos as a whole, MJ may as well be the woman that dies rather than Gwen.

[roach]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Still....saving MJ again in the end will be exactly the same as the other three.

And #5 should be....Mary Jane dies. Hell, if Raimi wanted to screw the mythos as a whole, MJ may as well be the woman that dies rather than Gwen.

i didn't say anything about saving her in the end

[Spider-Aziz]

If I catch up on an early show of The Amazing Spider-Man I will watch the Raimi films again later, if not I'll watch them then watch The Amazing Spider-Man

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by Spider-Aziz

Magneto's plan isn't silly, "either mutating the crap out of non-mutants or kill them", in this case it was let them suffer till they die, to hunt and torment us they should be taught a lesson. So I don't find it silly, sorry Spider-Fan

But that wasn't his plan. Magneto's plan was to promote world peace and mutant acceptance by turning the world leaders into mutants. If they became mutants, they'd be sympathtic towards mutants and create legislation and policy helping mutants.

But the problem with Magneto's plan is multi-layered.

1. Technically, according to comic book science, the leaders wouldn't be mutants- which is being BORN with the powers. They'd be like Spider-Man, the Hulk, etc. a person altered due to some type of exposure.

2. As I've mentioned, even if Magneto's device worked- it still wouldn't lead to a world where mutants were accepted. His machine would not remove man's innate prejudice against those who are different.

3. Again- even if Magneto's device worked- it would only confirm the mutant-hating world's fears that Mutants are dangerous and not to be trusted. They they have evil plans to destroy and remake the world in their image.

4. Magneto's device didn't work so not only is he an ineffective scientist- but he'd have caused a massacre would which have made the world immediately want to go to war against mutants.

[Spider-Aziz]

Originally Posted by Dragon

But that wasn't his plan. Magneto's plan was to promote world peace and mutant acceptance by turning the world leaders into mutants. If they became mutants, they'd be sympathtic towards mutants and create legislation and policy helping mutants.

But the problem with Magneto's plan is multi-layered.

1. Technically, according to comic book science, the leaders wouldn't be mutants- which is being BORN with the powers. They'd be like Spider-Man, the Hulk, etc. a person altered due to some type of exposure.

2. As I've mentioned, even if Magneto's device worked- it still wouldn't lead to a world where mutants were accepted. His machine would not remove man's innate prejudice against those who are different.

3. Again- even if Magneto's device worked- it would only confirm the mutant-hating world's fears that Mutants are dangerous and not to be trusted. They they have evil plans to destroy and remake the world in their image.

4. Magneto's device didn't work so not only is he an ineffective scientist- but he'd have caused a massacre would which have made the world immediately want to go to war against mutants.

Just why the point of mutant hate is silly
Sentry
Cyclops :Pitchfork:

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Spider-Aziz

If I catch up on an early show of The Amazing Spider-Man I will watch the Raimi films again later, if not I'll watch them then watch The Amazing Spider-Man

You carry a Smartphone player and watch Raimi's movie and ASM at the same time!

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Dragon

4. Magneto's device didn't work so not only is he an ineffective scientist- but he'd have caused a massacre would which have made the world immediately want to go to war against mutants.

Couldn't you lay that criticism against Osborn and Octavius, too?

Osborn placed his faith in a formula that made you crazy and violent, even though he wrote off that one instance as an anomaly. Octavius' life work was a gross miscalculation that could have destroyed New York City.

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Couldn't you lay that criticism against Osborn and Octavius, too?

Osborn placed his faith in a formula that made you crazy and violent, even though he wrote off that one instance as an anomaly. Octavius' life work was a gross miscalculation that could have destroyed New York City.

But in both Osborn and Octavius' case, the point of the story is that their experiments were failures, and that those failures led Osborn and Ock into points of desperation that would only lead to destruction. That wasn't the point of X-men. It was just supposed to be that Magneto's device, unknown to him- would kill everyone and he had to be stopped. Not that his actual plan was faulty.

[Spider-Aziz]

Originally Posted by El Payaso

You carry a Smartphone player and watch Raimi's movie and ASM at the same time!

I don't want distraction from what could possibly be a terrific movie
Spider-Man 2 has its 8th anniversary soon, a few days after the release of TASM

[roach]

Originally Posted by Dragon

But the problem with Magneto's plan is multi-layered.

1. Technically, according to comic book science, the leaders wouldn't be mutants- which is being BORN with the powers. They'd be like Spider-Man, the Hulk, etc. a person altered due to some type of exposure.

.

actually mutants aren't born with powers. They are born with a genome that allows them to manifest powers at a certain age. If I remember correctly all humans in the Marvel universe have this genome but its only activated in mutants. There are a few mutants who didn't develop their powers until a latter age and after some tampering
Havok's abilities didn't manifest until the whole Living Monolith situation and that was when he was in college.
Polaris also didn't discover her abilities until a latter age and they were unlocked.
Magneto(in the comics) didn't discover his powers until he was married and had a daughter.
If the machine jumpstarted the X-gene in normal humans they would be classified as Mutants

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by roach

actually mutants aren't born with powers. They are born with a genome that allows them to manifest powers at a certain age. If I remember correctly all humans in the Marvel universe have this genome but its only activated in mutants. There are a few mutants who didn't develop their powers until a latter age and after some tampering
Havok's abilities didn't manifest until the whole Living Monolith situation and that was when he was in college.
Polaris also didn't discover her abilities until a latter age and they were unlocked.
Magneto(in the comics) didn't discover his powers until he was married and had a daughter.
If the machine jumpstarted the X-gene in normal humans they would be classified as Mutants

Well, I didn't actually mean that they exhibit powers from the moment of birth. I meant that their powers manifest as an accident of birth- rather than an outside event like a radioactive spider-bite. Although some mutants are born exhibiting their powers, like the Beast.

But regardless, the world leaders wouldn't be classified as mutants because whatever abilities they developed wouldn't have developed the way a mutant's does. That they weren't born with the X-gene functioning means they're not a mutant. I mean if we're going based on comic book lore- then it could've taken years for any mutations to emerge. And who's to say that Spidey et al didn't simply have their x-gene activated by the events that gave them their powers? The movie and comic universes don't work the same way. I think Movie-Magneto was going under the idea that in their world, anyone with superhuman powers would be classified as mutants, whether they were born that way or not.

But it still goes back to my point, which is that even if the normal humans became mutants it's not the same as if they were revealed to be mutants as opposed to being transformed by an overt act of Magneto.

[roach]

Originally Posted by Dragon

Well, I didn't actually mean that they exhibit powers from the moment of birth. I meant that their powers manifest as an accident of birth- rather than an outside event like a radioactive spider-bite. Although some mutants are born exhibiting their powers, like the Beast.

But regardless, the world leaders wouldn't be classified as mutants because whatever abilities they developed wouldn't have developed the way a mutant's does. That they weren't born with the X-gene functioning means they're not a mutant. I mean if we're going based on comic book lore- then it could've taken years for any mutations to emerge. And who's to say that Spidey et al didn't simply have their x-gene activated by the events that gave them their powers? The movie and comic universes don't work the same way. I think Movie-Magneto was going under the idea that in their world, anyone with superhuman powers would be classified as mutants, whether they were born that way or not.

But it still goes back to my point, which is that even if the normal humans became mutants it's not the same as if they were revealed to be mutants as opposed to being transformed by an overt act of Magneto.

believe it or not but this was a popular theory in the 80's among fans

But we saw the desired effect in Senator Kelly: "I hated you because you were different and now that I am different I know what you were going thru....ack I'm water"

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by roach

believe it or not but this was a popular theory in the 80's among fans

But we saw the desired effect in Senator Kelly: "I hated you because you were different and now that I am different I know what you were going thru....ack I'm water"

Well, of course things would be better if we all got past our prejudices. I'm just saying that Magneto forcing the change upon a group of world leaders wouldn't accomplish that. Even Kelly's reaction was a contrivance made more for a "feel-good" moment than it being a realistic reaction to his situation. Maybe in knowing that he was dying he simply let go of all of his rage and fear- but that wouldn't happen to the world at large.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Dragon

But in both Osborn and Octavius' case, the point of the story is that their experiments were failures, and that those failures led Osborn and Ock into points of desperation that would only lead to destruction. That wasn't the point of X-men. It was just supposed to be that Magneto's device, unknown to him- would kill everyone and he had to be stopped. Not that his actual plan was faulty.

Ok, I see the point you're making. I thought it was a general criticism against villains with bad science in their schemes.

[Chris Wallace]

Originally Posted by roach

I don't find it silly. Short sighted--yes but the villain thats trying to do good thru evil means usually is.
In the deleted scenes Storm is teaching the class about Christianity. In the scene she mentions that Christians in ancient Rome were killed because of their beliefs and that it didn't become accepted until the Emperor became a Christian. Which parallels Magneto's plan.

Here is how Magneto's plan would play out in his mind:
Mutate the rulers of the world at the UN festival or whatever it was.
Obama becomes a mutant with the ability to absorb sunlight and convert it into heat rays or something. He has an ability he can hide. To look at him you couldn't tell if there was anything different...but he knows. A few months later he comes out in an interview that he feels mutants shouldn't be persecuted and they are people too. Anti mutant legislation hits his desk and he vetoes it. Obama becomes the first sitting president to stand for mutant rights. It now becomes popular to be ok with mutants. Sure there is a few knuckle heads but the general masses they fall in line with the president especially after a few famous people come out as mutants..."Alison Blaire came out as a mutant??? but I love her music...I guess they aren't all that bad" "Lila Cheney too oh wow"

see this is the rosy world according to Magneto. He's arrogant. Why would my plan fail? I thought it up. Why are you X-men against me when I am trying to save us?

Every super villain's plan is done in by shortsighted-ness
I didn't count on human nature
I didn't count on needing to put a photon torpedo field around the port shaft or the Death Star
I didn't count on Superman being fast enough to stop the rocket
I didn't count on Batman being that intelligent
I didn't count on the Avengers to take Coulson's death seriously
I didn't count on Perseus being able to get the head of Medusa
I didn't count on Spider-man being able to flip out of the way of the goblin glider
I didn't count on the Incredibles to fight as a family

it goes on and on and on...

Villains don't count on these things because they can't see past their own ego/ambition.