Love Interest for Captain America II

[DrCosmic]

Action movie relationships don't develop over time. They happen real quick. It's not a rom com.

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

I think that not only should Steve start a relationship with Sharon, but he should also get her to dye her hair brown, wear 1940s clothing and speak in a British accent. When she asks him why, he'll just say that he's not quite up to speed with modern women. If she's into fancy dress she'll oblige.

The only difficulty is when he starts referring to her as Peggy while in bed.

Originally Posted by Majik1387

I think you can only read it as douchey if you are douchey.

Really? "Takes one to know one?" That's the logic level we're on now?

At face value, she may have been a stand in(I don't think so, but we'll go with it), but that doesn't make the feelings that Steve has developed for her over time shallow. He doesn't fall for Sharon because she's Peggy with blonde hair or that she's related to his past love, he falls in love with Sharon for Sharon.

I understand what you're saying, and that sounds very nice. What I'm saying is that you can't communicate that in a film. All people will see is Steve getting with someone who is just like Peggy. There's no way to show the reason he likes the woman who is just like his ex has nothing to do with his ex. Also, even if you could show it, it's disingenuous. Sharon exists to be like Peggy. Did you think they came up with a new love interest for Cap and the writers, of all the infinite characters they could have created, just happened to make her just like Peggy but younger? Just happened to make the related?

And there's not enough time in an action movie to 'earn' that story. And if you try to stretch it out, everyone knows that the purpose of the new Peggy is to fall in love with Steve. It's obvious. It's contrived. It doesn't work, narratively to make the film better. It's just fanservice.

You do what the writers would do; approach it with care and then go with it. It's what makes him happy, so no point making an issue out of it, especially when there's no issue to make.

Why would you need to approach it with care if there's no issue to make?

Exactly.

Actually, only 3 people on this board have an issue with Steve and Sharon. Trust me, I checked. You can do so as well. There was a 4th one, but he's on the fence about it, but if you really want, you can have that 4th one too.

I don't need to be agreed with in order to be correct. Take the 4th person yourself, if you feel it makes your logic more sound.

I think you just don't like the character of Sharon and are just biased against her existence.

I don't need to make up an opinion for you either, because I can directly counter your argument. Sharon's a replacement character, and that has different implications in a film than it does in comics. It's just that simple. I don't have enough of an opinion on the character for my opinion to be relevant to the conversation, imho.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Has his ex been dead for twenty+ years? Was the last time he saw his ex 70 years ago, when she was, you know, actually alive? Then yeah....I'd think he's over his ex.

What if he was frozen in ice, and for him 70 years ago was last week?

Originally Posted by marcvader

And you anti Sharon cats continúe to assume that Steve has no integrity by thinking he's interested in having a relationship with someone who looks like Peggy. The writers would be idiots to write it that way and it wont happen that way. THAT would be douchey. Relationships can take their time to develop, it happens all the time guys, for all the inexperienced. It happened that way in First Avenger for Pete's sake.

The writers would have to be the best writers in the world to write it any other way. It'd be different if it was just looking like Peggy, he might have a type, y'know? But someone who looks like her, same job, same family. That's someone like Peggy physically, intellectually and socially. He obviously wants to replace Peggy.

TFA could do a slow build relationship because it was about WWII... it had a lot of spread out things, and very slow travel. Cap 2 won't be like that, I'd be very surprised if it took place over more than a couple days, like every other action movie set in modern days.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by silver age guy

All this nonsense about Peggy and Sharon Carter is easily solved. You just simply stay with the Marvel story line that has worked for almost a half of a century. Cap and Sharon meet and they fall in love. Sharon IS in fact related to Peggy but that all gets worked out between them. Sharon becomes a force in her own right and they make a great team. The plot lines started by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby worked just fine and the relationship between Cap and Sharon continues into the current era under the brilliant guidance of Ed Brubaker. Don't mess with Marvels successful formula in regards to Cap, Sharon and Peggy. Just adhere to the story as it already exists and forget about making any changes or tweaks! It's been working for the Cap story line since 1966.

Exactly, my good man.
Why this is even being discussed is beyond me....it's like trying to find someone besides Lois Lane for Clark Kent, or Mary Jane Watson for Peter Parker, or Betty Ross for Bruce Banner, or Jane Foster for Thor. It's one of the most iconic comic book couples of the last 50 years, and people would rather scrap all that for....who, frickin' Bernie Rosenthal...?!?!?!

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Action movie relationships don't develop over time. They happen real quick. It's not a rom com.

Yup...it's not going to "evolve" over several films.

I understand what you're saying, and that sounds very nice. What I'm saying is that you can't communicate that in a film. All people will see is Steve getting with someone who is just like Peggy. There's no way to show the reason he likes the woman who is just like his ex has nothing to do with his ex. Also, even if you could show it, it's disingenuous. Sharon exists to be like Peggy. Did you think they came up with a new love interest for Cap and the writers, of all the infinite characters they could have created, just happened to make her just like Peggy but younger? Just happened to make the related?

No, the writers created Sharon Carter to be Steve Rogers' love interest in the Silver Age 60s, period. Stan didn't give a damn about Peggy Carter....she was a bit player from the 40s series, and *not* a major love interest for Golden Age Cap....the movie exaggerated that. When Stan reinvented Cap in the 60s, he created Sharon as the love interest, and *later* reintroduced Peggy into Steve's life. Again, back then, Cap had only been frozen for 20 years, so Peggy was still very much alive and lively and in her 40s, so the dynamic there is ENTIRELY different than when Cap's been frozen for SEVENTY years.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

No, the writers created Sharon Carter to be Steve Rogers' love interest in the Silver Age 60s, period. Stan didn't give a damn about Peggy Carter....she was a bit player from the 40s series, and *not* a major love interest for Golden Age Cap....the movie exaggerated that. When Stan reinvented Cap in the 60s, he created Sharon as the love interest, and *later* reintroduced Peggy into Steve's life. Again, back then, Cap had only been frozen for 20 years, so Peggy was still very much alive and lively and in her 40s, so the dynamic there is ENTIRELY different than when Cap's been frozen for SEVENTY years.

Not quite.

Sharon isn't a replacement for Peggy because Peggy never existed individually from Sharon.

Peggy first appeared two months after Sharon. Her next appearance wasn't until years later, in an arc that revealed she was Sharon's older sister.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

Not quite.

Sharon isn't a replacement for Peggy because Peggy never existed individually from Sharon.

Peggy first appeared two months after Sharon. Her next appearance wasn't until years later, in an arc that revealed she was Sharon's older sister.

Really? Interesting. That does shed some light on the issue.

Originally Posted by silver age guy

All this nonsense about Peggy and Sharon Carter is easily solved. You just simply stay with the Marvel story line that has worked for almost a half of a century. Cap and Sharon meet and they fall in love. Sharon IS in fact related to Peggy but that all gets worked out between them. Sharon becomes a force in her own right and they make a great team. The plot lines started by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby worked just fine and the relationship between Cap and Sharon continues into the current era under the brilliant guidance of Ed Brubaker. Don't mess with Marvels successful formula in regards to Cap, Sharon and Peggy. Just adhere to the story as it already exists and forget about making any changes or tweaks! It's been working for the Cap story line since 1966.

The formula is already completely messed with. In the MCU, Peggy came first, Peggy is the girl that he misses when he wakes up in present day - he is not over her. The plot lines you refer to had an entirely different context, and worked in that context, but don't in this context.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Yup...it's not going to "evolve" over several films.

It may indeed evolve, but the point of including Sharon Carter is for Cap to have a love interest... they're not going to put her in a film if she's not a love interest in that film. So the relationship isn't going to materialize slowly over time... it may indeed evolve after that into a deeper stronger relationship. This is what I was getting at earlier... if they're going to be just friends, then who will be the love interest in the second film, exactly?

No, the writers created Sharon Carter to be Steve Rogers' love interest in the Silver Age 60s, period. Stan didn't give a damn about Peggy Carter....she was a bit player from the 40s series, and *not* a major love interest for Golden Age Cap....the movie exaggerated that. When Stan reinvented Cap in the 60s, he created Sharon as the love interest, and *later* reintroduced Peggy into Steve's life. Again, back then, Cap had only been frozen for 20 years, so Peggy was still very much alive and lively and in her 40s, so the dynamic there is ENTIRELY different than when Cap's been frozen for SEVENTY years.

I see, so in the comics, the audience hadn't already been attached to Peggy and shown that Cap cares for her deeply and isn't over her when he wakes up, or when he joins the Avengers. I was uninformed. Now that I know though, it makes it clear to me why the comics storyline doesn't vibe with the movie storyline. Totally different context. Totally different audience expectation. Stan may not have given a damn about Peggy, but Steve, and the audience, very much does.

Here's what I'm getting at, all in all. Sharon is just like Peggy, a character that is very important to Steve's arc, even if she's dead, so Sharon, whether you want her to or not, represents Peggy. Now, steve is a man out of time, who is supposed to learn to let go of the old days... but how can he do that if he's still has 'a' Peggy? The more natural resonant and powerful storyline would be to let 'Peggy' go and do something that honors the past, but isn't trying to reproduce it. That's something all 70 year olds have to deal with, and all humans who have gone through loss, really. It's a more resonant honest and less contrived storyline than "Well, it was like this in the comics for a while, so it must be this way now!" or "I just happened to fall for a girl just like and related to my ex that knows me through my ex... I just happen to be around a hot girl just like and related to my ex that came to me cuz my ex told her about me, but it's a coincidence, and we're just friends."

[spideymouse]

Whichever love interest Cap has in this movie, she's going to be a modern-day, 21st century girl who is going to have an incredibly different background, value system, and worldview than Cap's, and that's going to be very exciting and freshly different from Peggy Carter. I am excited to see how she and Steve play off of each other, challenge each other, fight with each other, and ultimately fall for each other in spite of their differences. Peggy was Steve's first love, his first crush, even "the right partner" for the 1940s, but this girl is going to be a completely different "right partner" for Cap in 2014, so I'm not worried if turns out to be Sharon Carter.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

It may indeed evolve, but the point of including Sharon Carter is for Cap to have a love interest... they're not going to put her in a film if she's not a love interest in that film. So the relationship isn't going to materialize slowly over time... it may indeed evolve after that into a deeper stronger relationship. This is what I was getting at earlier... if they're going to be just friends, then who will be the love interest in the second film, exactly?

No one?

Pepper Potts wasn't a love interest in Iron Man 1. That relationship evolved over time.

Having a love interest is far less pressing than having a female presence.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

No one?

Pepper Potts wasn't a love interest in Iron Man 1. That relationship evolved over time.

Having a love interest is far less pressing than having a female presence.

idk about that; I could argue that while they didn't share a kiss in the theatrical cut (apparently they did in one alternate take but that never made it's way to the final print), her intimacy with Tony was developed in the way that most standard love interests are in any film. Just because they didn't officially hook up in the first film, doesn't mean that they weren't "love interests" to each other.

Plus, they eventually did get together in the second film and some here have been saying that they'd prefer it where Sharon and Steve only make it official AFTER CA2.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Plus, they eventually did get together in the second film and some here have been saying that they'd prefer it where Sharon and Steve only make it official AFTER CA2.

... The difference being?

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

... The difference being?

The difference being that CA 2 wouldn't "rush" into getting Steve and Sharon hooked up with each other romantically like "Thor" did with Thor and Jane Foster.

I was just bringing this up in response as to how you said that Pepper wasn't viewed as a LI for IM1, but she did get together with Tony eventually in IM2, what I'm saying is that people here wouldn't mind if the creators did the same thing where they waited a film before getting Sharon and Steve into full blown romantic territory.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by herolee10

The difference being that CA 2 wouldn't "rush" into getting Steve and Sharon hooked up with each other romantically like "Thor" did with Thor and Jane Foster.

I was just bringing this up in response as to how you said that Pepper wasn't viewed as a LI for IM1, but she did get together with Tony eventually in IM2, what I'm saying is that people here wouldn't mind if the creators did the same thing where they waited a film before getting Sharon and Steve into full blown romantic territory.

My mistake. And I agree.

[FVD]

I don't see anything sickening about Steve having a romantic interest in Sharon Carter. Make it so!!!! Oh and I do think Abbie Cornish would make an amazing Carol Danvers too.

[KangConquers]

Wait, I'm confused...why in the hell is Wasp listed?

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by KangConquers

Wait, I'm confused...why in the hell is Wasp listed?

She was Ultimate Captain America's love interest.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

No one?

Pepper Potts wasn't a love interest in Iron Man 1. That relationship evolved over time.

Having a love interest is far less pressing than having a female presence.

...I see what you're saying, and while Pepper was indeed a love interest, even if it was cleverly unfulfilled, I do see now how Sharon could work in a similar fashion. With secondary love interests I think that has a chance of working, where it can be illustrated that he's worked out that particular issue. Not really a fan, but sure, why not. They key is, on top of all these things, introducing her in a way that distances her from Peggy, imho, in looks, personality, even her specific job... make her relation to Peggy, and Cap fanship a twist that Cap is not aware of. Could be kinda cool, depending on how they run it.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

...I see what you're saying, and while Pepper was indeed a love interest, even if it was cleverly unfulfilled, I do see now how Sharon could work in a similar fashion. With secondary love interests I think that has a chance of working, where it can be illustrated that he's worked out that particular issue. Not really a fan, but sure, why not. They key is, on top of all these things, introducing her in a way that distances her from Peggy, imho, in looks, personality, even her specific job... make her relation to Peggy, and Cap fanship a twist that Cap is not aware of. Could be kinda cool, depending on how they run it.

Why would Cap not be aware of Sharon's true identity/ancestry? Again, the most *likely* scenario in the MCU would be that Sharon would seek out Cap first, not the other way around. She'd do it because his and Peggy's legacy are the reason she got into spycraft and SHIELD in the first place. Making Sharon the one who initiates the contact makes it even *less* "ick" ---- which it never was in the first place, but here's yet another nail in that coffin.

[DrCosmic]

Cap may not have asked, and she may not have told. Heck, most people don't know about their grandparent's love affairs, why would Sharon? That's much more natural than a new girl coming up saying how awesome she thinks he is. Makes for a better story (adds tension, mystery, puts more focus on their relationship than the set up for an inevitable relationship) than the obvious matchmaking that you're talking about. As long as their relationship is based on her relationship to Peggy, it's contrived. As long as she is a wannabe Peggy (Peggy legacy), that's all she'll be - a wannabe Peggy. And it won't be believable for Steve to see her as anything more. She needs to be her own character, with her own motivations for dealing with Cap, getting in SHIELD, and a different take on Spycraft. Then she's not a replacement Peggy, and you can tell a story about Steve moving on from Peggy because he doesn't "move on" to Peggy 2.0.

I know the idea of some girl coming along who adores Steve and is basically meant for him sounds romantic, but without significant barriers, it's just bad. I mean, if the set up is as you suggest, an attractive SHIED agent comes to him, tells him how much she admires him, she's been assigned to him and that she basically wants to be just like him and Peggy... what possible reason could Steve have for not getting romantic with her immediately? What possible reason would she have for not getting with Steve immediately? Are they not attracted to each other? Do she not believe in fraternization (obviously not true for Steve)? Is the movie badly paced and written so they never have time to interact? Why should the audience care about a relationship that is so painfully obviously and contrivedly set up?

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Again, the most *likely* scenario in the MCU would be that Sharon would seek out Cap first, not the other way around.

This boggles my mind a bit. What are you basing likelihood on? Are you assuming that the MCU exists as you envision it? That Sharon already (or likely) exists exactly the way you would create her? Thus, since she exists with the motivations and history you imagine, she would do X most likely? Is that where you are?

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Cap may not have asked, and she may not have told. Heck, most people don't know about their grandparent's love affairs, why would Sharon? That's much more natural than a new girl coming up saying how awesome she thinks he is. Makes for a better story (adds tension, mystery, puts more focus on their relationship than the set up for an inevitable relationship) than the obvious matchmaking that you're talking about. As long as their relationship is based on her relationship to Peggy, it's contrived. As long as she is a wannabe Peggy (Peggy legacy), that's all she'll be - a wannabe Peggy. And it won't be believable for Steve to see her as anything more. She needs to be her own character, with her own motivations for dealing with Cap, getting in SHIELD, and a different take on Spycraft. Then she's not a replacement Peggy, and you can tell a story about Steve moving on from Peggy because he doesn't "move on" to Peggy 2.0.

I know the idea of some girl coming along who adores Steve and is basically meant for him sounds romantic, but without significant barriers, it's just bad. I mean, if the set up is as you suggest, an attractive SHIED agent comes to him, tells him how much she admires him, she's been assigned to him and that she basically wants to be just like him and Peggy... what possible reason could Steve have for not getting romantic with her immediately? What possible reason would she have for not getting with Steve immediately? Are they not attracted to each other? Do she not believe in fraternization (obviously not true for Steve)? Is the movie badly paced and written so they never have time to interact? Why should the audience care about a relationship that is so painfully obviously and contrivedly set up?



This boggles my mind a bit. What are you basing likelihood on? Are you assuming that the MCU exists as you envision it? That Sharon already (or likely) exists exactly the way you would create her? Thus, since she exists with the motivations and history you imagine, she would do X most likely? Is that where you are?

No, Doc....I'm right where the *comics* are. That's the way the story was told in the comics, and I've never heard ONE person in the last 30+ years I've been collecting comics say *anything* against the Cap-Sharon relationship. But *you* come in here and find fault with it, and find it hard to grasp, and icky, so obviously we need to throw all that canon out the window and start over from scratch just to satisfy your concept.

...That about cover it?

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

No, Doc....I'm right where the *comics* are. That's the way the story was told in the comics, and I've never heard ONE person in the last 30+ years I've been collecting comics say *anything* against the Cap-Sharon relationship. But *you* come in here and find fault with it, and find it hard to grasp, and icky, so obviously we need to throw all that canon out the window and start over from scratch just to satisfy your concept.

...That about cover it?

If you ignore the part about Peggy being entrenched in the minds of the GA and MCU Steve Rogers thus dramatically changing the reception of the Sharon character, that we covered on this page, as well as the issue being the emotional credibility of the relationship, and not generic ickiness or complicatedness, which we covered on the previous page, and ignore the others who pointed out similar issues on the page before, if you ignore the adaptation you quoted and just summarize it as "not exactly the same"="starting from scratch"... basically, if you ignore the entire conversation and use the comics, and the opinions of fanboys (who generally have little interest in the Sharon character anyway) as the golden standard, then yes, you have covered everything. Clearly I made the mistake of doing silly things like making points and counterpoints in this discussion.

[KangConquers]

I'd rather see the whole entire MCU end than see Wasp as Cap's love interest.

616 Cap Am has several love interests that I'd want to see before that, including Sharon Carter, Diamondback, and Bernie Rosenthal. There's no reason to bring in that bastardized Ultimate canon.

[TheVileOne]

In Ultimate Avengers 2 he hooked up with Black Widow.

[KangConquers]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

In Ultimate Avengers 2 he hooked up with Black Widow.

I believe Cap and Black Widow toyed with the idea of romance in the early-mid 90s for a brief time. I know Cap also had a fling with Scarlet Witch.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by KangConquers

I believe Cap and Black Widow toyed with the idea of romance in the early-mid 90s for a brief time. I know Cap also had a fling with Scarlet Witch.

I think that was one-sided, and possibly in only one issue. Cap was sleeping in a chair, and Natasha oogled him contemplatively and had an inner monologue about him before deciding that nothing good could come of it.

[marcvader]

I think most of the main characters in the MU have had flings with one another at some point.

[BullMcGiveny]

Well, that depends on what a fling is, certainly. With Natasha and Steve (and possibly a lot of women and Steve) it was a brief crush, unless there's something I'm missing.