The Official Mitt Romney Thread

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

I "hoped" Bin Laden would get shot in the head. So that was some cool "change I could believe in."

Yes, because Obama went right over there and pulled that trigger, he went right in there and spent a year training for that one night....yep.....damn good job.

Please, please, please....the only President that I think WOULD NOT have made that call would be Carter....so if that's it, that is sad.

Now, if you wanted Obamacare, cool....bigger government, cool.... fair enough, if those are things you wanted that's alright that is your choice, and opinion....but the killing of Bin Laden....please.

Come on JJJ as big of a liberal as you are, that is all you could come up with that you thought was good????? seriously...

I'm grateful that Obama made that call, but that's not change, that is "I simply made a call that about 99% of the Presidents would have made"....not change, just a smart decision, and a gutsy on his part, I'll give him that.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Wow. I was making a slightly humorous aside. I wasn't expecting you'd pick it apart and then insert words in my mouth (where did I say he went over there personally? Huh). You come off as a bit defensive about the whole thing.

For the record I don't think McCain would have pulled the trigger. Because he rebuked Obama for not respecting Pakistan's sovereignty during the 2008 debates. I take people at their word.

Bush had 8 years to get Bin Laden. He didn't, because he took his eye off the ball and focused on Iraq instead. Obama refocused the mission and put more money and resources into the covert drone-war/spec ops missions in Pakistan. It paid off. I'm sorry you're forced to give Obama credit for something, but don't take it so hard. And there's lots of other stuff I can (and have) given him credit for (including major parts of "Obamacare".... *shock*.... *HORROR*), but that's for another thread. The fact is, if Bin Laden had been offed under Bush's watch, the GOP would be pushing to have his face carved in the side of Mt Rushmore. Don't pretend like that isn't true. It burns them up that the greatest national security victory in decades happened under a Democrat's watch.

[Kelly]

Bush dropped the ball on Bin Laden, he let Iraq get in the way....so you will get no argument there....

As far as McCain, of course McCain would have made that call had he had the same intel that Obama got...that's silly.

Then you need to put a disclaimer or something, because if you don't....its black and white in writing.... : )

[SV Fan]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Frankly as long as less people cry about swift-boating and birthering, I'm fine with it. I don't have a problem with those who fight dirty (which is what the Bain attacks, Swift-Boat, and Birtherism are), but I do find myself annoyed when people cry foul and then proceed to advocate their own side to do the same thing.

For argument sake, I wouldn't put Swift Boat with Bain attacks or Birthers. Swift Boat to me was an outright lie. In the case of the other 2 it's people asking for documented proof of the truth. I would put swift boating up with McCain has a black baby out of wedlock South Carolina campaign

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SV Fan

For argument sake, I wouldn't put Swift Boat with Bain attacks or Birthers. Swift Boat to me was an outright lie. In the case of the other 2 it's people asking for documented proof of the truth. I would put swift boating up with McCain has a black baby out of wedlock South Carolina campaign

Trying to paint Romney as a felon is right up there dude. It's certainly legitimate to ask about Bain, but trying to make Romney as a criminal when fact checking groups say the story is false, is what makes this a low blow on par with Swift Boat and the McCain thing.

And I say that birtherism is just as low on account of it not ending despite Obama presenting evidence to the contrary and simple citizenship laws have already solved this "mystery."

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Dirty tricks ARE dirty tricks. It's lamentable this is the state of our current political climate. It really does suck. Unfortunately if you take the high ground, you lose (or at least are at a disadvantage/ on the defensive). We saw this with McCain in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. I'd rather my guy get a bit dirty and win, then be above the fray and lose. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Romney and his associated Super PACs sling some serious mud back. Romney and Obama both knew what they were getting into when they respectively ran for national office.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Dirty tricks ARE dirty tricks. It's lamentable this is the state of our current political climate. It really does suck. Unfortunately if you take the high ground, you lose (or at least are at a disadvantage/ on the defensive). We saw this with McCain in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. I'd rather my guy get a bit dirty and win, then be above the fray and lose. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Romney and his associated Super PACs sling some serious mud back. Romney and Obama both knew what they were getting into when they respectively ran for national office.

As I've stated before, Romney hasn't even begun to spend the Presidential Campaign money, he can't yet.....but he is far away ahead of Obama in the Fund Raising, and I have an idea that "these changes" that Romney has made in his campaign people are putting together some equally dirty stuff against Obama....just wait until August....this campaign is going to go to new heights of crap being thrown.

[SV Fan]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Trying to paint Romney as a felon is right up there dude. It's certainly legitimate to ask about Bain, but trying to make Romney as a criminal when fact checking groups say the story is false, is what makes this a low blow on par with Swift Boat and the McCain thing.

I don't think they are saying Romney is a criminal, they are saying he is either lied about his time at Bain to the people or he lied to the SEC which is a felony. To me the point of that is he is not being 100% honest about his time at Bain to the public(basically what info the SEC has is the truth)

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

And I say that birtherism is just as low on account of it not ending despite Obama presenting evidence to the contrary and simple citizenship laws have already solved this "mystery.

Well the birth certificate should be over with, but I do think it's fair game to ask for his College transcripts(not sure if it's a good move but it is fair game like asking for tax returns)

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Yes, because Obama went right over there and pulled that trigger, he went right in there and spent a year training for that one night....yep.....damn good job.

Please, please, please....the only President that I think WOULD NOT have made that call would be Carter....so if that's it, that is sad.

I never get this counterargument. Any POTUS would use this as a political asset for reelection and isn't nearly as...flamboyant(?) or self-satisfied as flying a jet onto an aircraft carrier dressed like your from TOP Gun to declare victory on a war that had nearly a decade to go.

As for "making the call," it seems to get in that position to make it was incredibly difficult and came about because of Obama refocusing efforts on al-Qaeda and Pakistan once he came into office. I also think certain other presidents would have relied on an airstrike from fears of Jimmy Carter in Iran. After all, McCain and Romney both said in so many words in 2008 that sending troops into Pakistan without that sovereign government's permission was naive and dangerous.

Regardless, those who have decided to dislike Obama will choose to undermine this and not give much (or any) credit for it. Just as those who like Obama can sometimes wave it like a flag. It is what it is.

[Kelly]

Wow, way to totally miss the rest of that post....

I'm grateful he made that call.....but I did not think that it was a plausible argument to what I said....and I explained that. Will you please rip the things I find wrong with Romney.....I'm feeling a little unbalanced...

I think Romney is hiding something because he won't show more than 1 year of tax returns.....will you rip that please, counter it...something....
I think that the Romney campaign is run by big corporations....rip that, counter it....
I think Romney is a hypocrite when it comes to calling Obama on his outsourcing....rip that...
I think Romney is wrong for wanting to repeal all of something that was based on what he did as governor...rip that....
I think the Morman church is weird in some of the inside stuff that they do, and Romney being a member of it, I have to say....causes me pause.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Kelly

No, Obama was running on things like "Hope" and "Change" and haven't seen any of that....so lets call a Spade a Spade here....Obama really hasn't done much of what he campaigned on, in fact...he has done pretty much opposite of the two things he built his entire campaign on....he plays politics like politics have been played in Washington D.C. for a long time, and the hope he is giving us, ain't much...

I'm pissed about that, because I fell for it....

So, if people vote for Romney because they think he can do better....then so be it....but I hope they are much happier with their choice than I have been with mine. I'm not looking at much Hope and Change in either of these candidates.

Yes, but to be fair...Obama has been blocked 150% of the time by the GOP on everything from Day 1. That was their mantra from jump. I remember reading an article that stated that congressional leaders from the RNC met for a private dinner the night of Obama's inauguration and they actually MAPPED OUT multiple and unified ways to make him fail at every turn. Their focus has been to make him a one term president by stopping him from getting anything done.

For example: remember the jobs bill? That was originally an idea promoted by the GOP. Obama tried to appeal to them by incorporating elements of it to get them to sign on. Of course, when HE proposed it they said it was a bad idea suddenly and blocked him again. Now, months after the fact, Mitt can say Obama didn't get the jobs bill passed. But the American people have such short term memories they won't remember that Mitt's party stopped a few million folks from getting back to work immediately via construction, etc. There is a science behind this president's inability to accomplish tasks.

And it may work to the GOP's benefit come November.

But I don't think it's entirely right for people to say he hasn't gotten anything done in his first term; no other sitting president has dealt with the level of strife and animosity from within the ranks like this one has.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

Yes, but to be fair...Obama has been blocked 150% of the time by the GOP on everything from Day 1. That was their mantra from jump. I remember reading an article that stated that congressional leaders from the RNC met for a private dinner the night of Obama's inauguration and they actually MAPPED OUT multiple and unified ways to make him fail at every turn. Their focus has been to make him a one term president by stopping him from getting anything done.

For example: remember the jobs bill? That was originally an idea promoted by the GOP. Obama tried to appeal to them by incorporating elements of it to get them to sign on. Of course, when HE proposed it they said it was a bad idea suddenly and blocked him again. Now, months after the fact, Mitt can say Obama didn't get the jobs bill passed. But the American people have such short term memories they won't remember that Mitt's party stopped a few million folks from getting back to work immediately via construction, etc. There is a science behind this president's inability to accomplish tasks.

And it may work to the GOP's benefit come November.

But I don't think it's entirely right for people to say he hasn't gotten anything done in his first term; no other sitting president has dealt with the level of strife and animosity from within the ranks like this one has.

Yes, behind the scenes meetings seem to be the mantra of Washington D.C. as a whole...

[Lightning Strykez!]

I have a distinct feeling that this upcoming election is going to be the nastiest one of ALL time. There are so many more moving parts in this one with the Gay issues, the obvious strong racial conflicts, etc. And it's going to be a referendum--not on Obama--but rather on the GOP and their morals...

Should the GOP succeeds in driving Obama out of office, it won't be this "glowing victory." In the aftermath, I think we will see a split down the fabric of this country that has never been seen before. Over the next few months, the GOP will make it their aim to piss off already oppressed and angry minorities--and then throw in a few million gays and lesbians to the mix...I'm talking civil war. And all of it just to make one man lose his job. Screw the rest of us...we're just the pawns who get to watch. It won't be about ANY of us.

And that kinda scares me.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

Yes, but to be fair...Obama has been blocked 150% of the time by the GOP on everything from Day 1.

There's one teeny tiny flaw with that statement. The GOP was in no position to block anything when he first took office. Now that they have power, yeah, they are, but to blame the GOP for Obama's problems from Day 1 is factually inaccurate.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

I have a distinct feeling that this upcoming election is going to be the nastiest one of ALL time. There are so many more moving parts in this one with the Gay issues, the obvious strong racial conflicts, etc. And it's going to be a referendum--not on Obama--but rather on the GOP and their morals...

Should the GOP succeeds in driving Obama out of office, it won't be this "glowing victory." In the aftermath, I think we will see a split down the fabric of this country that has never been seen before. Over the next few months, the GOP will make it their aim to piss off already oppressed and angry minorities--and then throw in a few million gays and lesbians to the mix...I'm talking civil war. And all of it just to make one man lose his job. Screw the rest of us...we're just the pawns who get to watch. It won't be about ANY of us.

And that kinda scares me.

It'll be nasty, but I don't think any campaign can top Jefferson vs. Adams or what the Dems did to Lincoln....

And funny.....

will see a split down the fabric of this country that has never been seen before

is what I would say this administration has done to the country already, and not to say that he didn't have help from across the aisle, but I think your prediction has already happened....

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by SV Fan

I don't think they are saying Romney is a criminal, they are saying he is either lied about his time at Bain to the people or he lied to the SEC which is a felony. To me the point of that is he is not being 100% honest about his time at Bain to the public(basically what info the SEC has is the truth)

Stephanie Cutter has pretty much come out saying that Romney might be a criminal and with the Obama re-election supporting the Boston Globe article despite various fact checking saying that it's false, pretty much means that they are supporting the assertion and trying to imbed the possibility that Romney is a felon.

A liberal contributor on Politico's arena, Mary Francis Berry, says it best:

"The Bain Capital discussion is disgusting and you don't have to be a Romney supporter to find it so. It reminds me of the Swift Boating of Kerry in 2004 even if Kerry himself can be dragged out to say it is not the same.

On the facts Glenn Kessler in the Washington Post Fact Checker this morning finds there is no evidence that Romney managed Bain Capital any longer than he has already said he did. Kessler's record is to give more Pinocchios for falsity to Republicans than Democrats.

But I suppose in politics if something seems to be working it is fair game. But no wonder so many Americans don't vote and are turned off to the whole enterprise."

Well the birth certificate should be over with, but I do think it's fair game to ask for his College transcripts(not sure if it's a good move but it is fair game like asking for tax returns)

It's Obama's personal business. Let the man have SOME privacy.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

There's one teeny tiny flaw with that statement. The GOP was in no position to block anything when he first took office. Now that they have power, yeah, they are, but to blame the GOP for Obama's problems from Day 1 is factually inaccurate.

It's a splitting of hairs Hippie.

The motive has been there from Day 1 and they've been unified to get it done from the day he took office. It's not like they were all frolicking on the White House Lawn together--Republicans and Obama--holding hands and eating cupcakes, and then something happened and there was a division. I don't think you would argue that he has repeatedly reached out to them.

They abhore the very air the man breathes. And they've felt that way from the moment he took that position before he had a chance to do anything. As an independent voter, even I'm able to see how ridiculous they've been in their dealings with him.

I'm not going to give him a free pass because he's black, or endorses my love of my gay partner. That won't earn him my vote because being a man of color and gay are only small percentages of who I am as a person. I have to live, work, make a living, retire one day...those things matter too and policy drives my success in achieving them.

But one thing that WILL affect my vote is the alternatives to Obama. I don't think that Mitt Romney is an evil man at all actually; he's probably a good guy with a well-meaning heart. Probably very generous. But I am terrified of the unmitigated hatred of his party--the GOP has become consumed with killing this President. It's almost...a seething hatred. I wish to God he had never won the election sometimes.

If Mitt Romney wins, Barack leaves office. Fine. But the GOP is back in power and now that I know just how HATEFUL they are at their core, I am worried all over again for living, working, making a living and retiring. I now know they don't give a chuck what happens to me or Jason.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

It's a splitting of hairs Hippie.

The motive has been there from Day 1 and they've been unified to get it done from the day he took office. It's not like they were all frolicking on the White House Lawn together--Republicans and Obama--holding hands and eating cupcakes, and then something happened and there was a division. I don't think you would argue that he has repeatedly reached out to them.

They abhore the very air the man breathes. And they've felt that way from the moment he took that position before he had a chance to do anything. As an independent voter, even I'm able to see how ridiculous they've been in their dealings with him.

I'm not going to give him a free pass because he's black, or endorses my love of my gay partner. That won't earn him my vote because being a man of color and gay are only small percentages of who I am as a person. I have to live, work, make a living, retire one day...those things matter too and policy drives my success in achieving them.

But one thing that WILL affect my vote is the alternatives to Obama. I don't think that Mitt Romney is an evil man at all actually; he's probably a good guy with a well-meaning heart. Probably very generous. But I am terrified of the unmitigated hatred of his party--the GOP has become consumed by with hate this President. It's almost...a seething hatred. I wish to God he had never won the election sometimes.

If Mitt Romney wins, Barack leaves office. Fine. But the GOP is back in power and now that I know just how HATEFUL they are at their core, I am worried all over again for living, working, making a living and retiring. I now know they don't give a chuck what happens to me or Jason.

You're complaining about something that every opposition party in the world pretty much does. Opposing the majority party is what opposition parties do. That is the role of an opposition party. And they're typically united, even in fractured parties like the GOP.

And yeah, Republicans do hate the man, he goes against everything they stand for. Obama's policies go against what the GOP advocates. And Obama looks down upon them as well, this is the man who sees rural conservatives as people who cling to their guns and bibles, this is a man who tells them to grow up when he's acting just as childish as they are, the list goes on.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Kelly

It'll be nasty, but I don't think any campaign can top Jefferson vs. Adams or what the Dems did to Lincoln....

I dunno...I think this will top even that. Back then, they didn't have the internet, Facebook, etc. and all the other means we have today to blanket the public with perceptions. And they didn't have a man of color bidding on the presidency.

I think we're going into completely unchartered waters here.

Originally Posted by Kelly

And funny..... is what I would say this administration has done to the country alremakady, and not to say that he didn't have help from across the aisle, but I think your prediction has already happened....

I'd agree with that. There are days when I wish Obama had NEVER become President. It's been a loonnnnng time since racism, homophobia and other social-driven ailments have risen to consistently cantankerous levels in America. Sure, there have been isolated incidents in the 90s, etc., like Rodney King, O.J. Simpson, where people were very divided. But those figures were common folk, and things eventually blew over.

THIS has brought all kinds of shiznit to the surface in ways we've never seen before.

If Obama wins, we will be able to cut the hate in the air with a knife. And those of us who are women, minority, gay, etc, will get the pleasure of dealing with the fall-outs that come from a newly brazened GOP who will do everything they can to make us suffer for even thinking we had a chance at equality. In the last 4 years, they've proven to be an almost shameless vindictive party. So payback will be a beeeetch.

If Obama loses.... *shudders* Can you say, uprising?

Either way, one candidate will win the battle and a large group of people will lose the war.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

You're complaining about something that every opposition party in the world pretty much does. Opposing the majority party is what opposition parties do. That is the role of an opposition party. And they're typically united, even in fractured parties like the GOP.

Wait....you're saying this particular animosity is just "business as usual"? You think the level of disrespect for this current president is normal? Really??

Originally Posted by Hippie Hunter

And yeah, Republicans do hate the man, he goes against everything they stand for. Obama's policies go against what the GOP advocates. And Obama looks down upon them as well, this is the man who sees rural conservatives as people who cling to their guns and bibles, this is a man who tells them to grow up when he's acting just as childish as they are, the list goes on.

I've been on the planet for awhile and have lived through a few democratic presidencies. Ideologically they've always been obtuse to Republican belief systems. There is far more at work here. I've never seen the GOP consistently give the American public the finger by blocking so many programs clearly designed to help us just to handicap a sitting President. Yes, it has happened with other Dem presidents, but not to this level...surely you can see that.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

Wait....you're saying this particular animosity is just "business as usual"? You think the level of disrespect for this current president is normal? Really??

Yeah. The Democrats treated George W. Bush like crap and he in turn treated them like crap until they were forced to work with one another. The GOP treated Bill Clinton like **** as well, even tried to get him removed from office. Of course unlike Bush or Obama, Clinton was far more effective in fighting against his opposition.

I've been on the planet for awhile and have lived through a few democratic presidencies. Ideologically they've always been obtuse to Republican belief systems. There is far more at work here. I've never seen the GOP consistently give the American public the finger by blocking so many programs clearly designed to help us just to handicap a sitting President. Yes, it has happened with other Dem presidents, but not to this level...surely you can see that.

Really dude

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Wow, way to totally miss the rest of that post....

I'm grateful he made that call.....but I did not think that it was a plausible argument to what I said....and I explained that. Will you please rip the things I find wrong with Romney.....I'm feeling a little unbalanced...

I think Romney is hiding something because he won't show more than 1 year of tax returns.....will you rip that please, counter it...something....
I think that the Romney campaign is run by big corporations....rip that, counter it....
I think Romney is a hypocrite when it comes to calling Obama on his outsourcing....rip that...
I think Romney is wrong for wanting to repeal all of something that was based on what he did as governor...rip that....
I think the Morman church is weird in some of the inside stuff that they do, and Romney being a member of it, I have to say....causes me pause.

I know Kel that you have a general skepticism with all politicians. But I came in this forum for the first time in a week and saw a post trivializing Obama's role in taking out Osama bin Laden, as I have seen and heard all of Obama's critics do. I find the general argument that any president would have made that call or that it was more a military action and his leadership came down to just an arbitrary authorization misleading and inaccurate.

Still do.

[hippie_hunter]

While I do think that almost any President would have made the call, I think it's pretty clear that Obama displayed some rather excellent leadership skills in that particular instance.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

You're complaining about something that every opposition party in the world pretty much does. Opposing the majority party is what opposition parties do. That is the role of an opposition party. And they're typically united, even in fractured parties like the GOP.

And yeah, Republicans do hate the man, he goes against everything they stand for. Obama's policies go against what the GOP advocates. And Obama looks down upon them as well, this is the man who sees rural conservatives as people who cling to their guns and bibles, this is a man who tells them to grow up when he's acting just as childish as they are, the list goes on.

Their hatred is irrational. And in the long history of modern American tradition we haven't seen governors talk down to presidents while waving their fingers, congressional leaders suggesting his citizenship is illegitimate and is thus a fraud or the entire opposition party playing to the narrative that the current POTUS is an insidious existential threat to the existence of the Republic.

There will always be an opposition party, but the right has gone so far to demogauge this man that reality has faded away.

But if someone after four years of it, still wants to pretend it is not extreme or unheard of, I really am not going to be able to convince them otherwise. Oh well.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Their hatred is irrational.

Well.....yeah.

And in the long history of modern American tradition we haven't seen governors talk down to presidents while waving their fingers, congressional leaders suggesting his citizenship is illegitimate and is thus a fraud

Or how Democrats tried to portray Bush as a draft dodger, unintelligent, borderline criminal, relied far too much on his daddy, etc.

current POTUS is an insidious existential threat to the existence of the Republic.

The Democrats did the same thing with George W. Bush! They tried to portray him as someone who was going to have everything fall apart while reinstating the draft.

There will always be an opposition party, but the right has gone so far to demogauge this man that reality has faded away.

Agreed.

But if someone after four years of it, still wants to pretend it is not extreme or unheard of, I really am not going to be able to convince them otherwise. Oh well.

It is extreme, but it's not unheard of, and frankly with the modern political climate it's what I expect. I expect the Democrats to do the same if Romney wins. And I won't be mad at them for it, it's what I'll expect of them.