Discussion: Education

[Obsidian]

Problem is we're testing our kids to death. In addition to preparing students for the high school math exams required to pass by the state, students have to do testing, we've got them taking benchmark tests required by the district every few months. We also are giving assessments aligned to the Common Core. And honestly for math, you don't get much qualitative data from multiple choice tests on students' mastery of content.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Obsidian

Problem is we're testing our kids to death. In addition to preparing students for the high school math exams required to pass by the state, students have to do testing, we've got them taking benchmark tests required by the district every few months. We also are giving assessments aligned to the Common Core. And honestly for math, you don't get much qualitative data from multiple choice tests on students' mastery of content.

The tests for math are much different than they were 2 years ago....they are still multiple choice but they are also written in a way that you are tested on the process as well as whether or not you got the right answer. They have multi-steps to them, very different.

But, I agree we are testing them to death, that is for sure.....because at the high school level they are now tested in all 4 core classes for 3 years....along with the benchmarks. Not all schools benchmark, they write tests like I do that are smaller "mini-benchmarks" that pin point problems much quicker and do not take 4 hours out of the day, you can do them during the class time.

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by Kelly

The tests for math are much different than they were 2 years ago....they are still multiple choice but they are also written in a way that you are tested on the process as well as whether or not you got the right answer. They have multi-steps to them, very different.

But, I agree we are testing them to death, that is for sure.....because at the high school level they are now tested in all 4 core classes for 3 years....along with the benchmarks. Not all schools benchmark, they write tests like I do that are smaller "mini-benchmarks" that pin point problems much quicker and do not take 4 hours out of the day, you can do them during the class time.

Unfortunately not in Arizona. Luckily, I've been recruited in this Cambridge Academy that emphasizes process not just answer. Results are more qualitative. I much rather give the students Cambridge tests. I can see exactly where they steered in the wrong direction. I'm still getting used to the grading process because it's different than what I've done before. I'm still forced to give district benchmarks. It takes up an entire week of my schedule.

[8wid]

Preparing students to take state testing is such a waste of time. I am sick of having to warn kids to be aware about what classes they will be getting in their next school because they take the testing as a joke as just something to take a nap during. Teachers get punished when the student chooses to fail beyond all reasonable efforts and so does the student when the test does not reflect his or her personal learning or intellect. It simply should be removed.

[Hobgoblin]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...pFXW_blog.html

Texas GOP rejects ‘critical thinking’ skills. Really.
By Valerie Strauss

(Update: Stephen Colbert’s take; other details)

In the you-can’t-make-up-this-stuff department, here’s what the Republican Party of Texas wrote into its 2012 platform as part of the section on education:

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Yes, you read that right. The party opposes the teaching of “higher order thinking skills” because it believes the purpose is to challenge a student’s “fixed beliefs” and undermine “parental authority.”

It opposes, among other things, early childhood education, sex education, and multicultural education, but supports “school subjects with emphasis on the Judeo-Christian principles upon which America was founded.”

More in the link.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...pFXW_blog.html



More in the link.

It looks to me like they are opposing what is UNDER the title of "Critical Thinking Skills" not ACTUAL....critical thinking skills....our TEKS prove that to be wrong, and those TEKS were implemented by a majority Republican committee....

So, IMO, this isn't a debate over "Critical Thinking Skills" it is a debate over subject sensitive criteria....

Most of the time I like Valerie's blogs....but this one smells of partianship....I would like for her to take and pass the World Geography EOC.... : )

[Kelly]

Also, the word "skills" in Critical Thinking Skills....is just...."wrong"...that isn't a skill that can be taught....it simply happens within the type of teaching that is happening. For instance....I teach using Lynn Erickson's Concept centered teaching....and I believe that helps them think critically.....its not just a skill, like "map reading"

[8wid]

When you look back at how biased textbooks about history are in the K-10 years in most average schools there is so much that is overlooked when students can think much more critically about it and realize their are different points of view. I wish it wasn't only in AP and Honors classes that took an in-depth scholarly look at history. Everything is watered down or simply glanced over the vast majority of students. US education sucks in social studies.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by 8wid

When you look back at how biased textbooks about history are in the K-10 years in most average schools there is so much that is overlooked when students can think much more critically about it and realize their are different points of view. I wish it wasn't only in AP and Honors classes that took an in-depth scholarly look at history. Everything is watered down or simply glanced over the vast majority of students. US education sucks in social studies.

Well, as far as Texas, our new TEKS implement almost specifically the College Boards elements....so we are at least trying to move in the right direction...

But, good grief the committee debate over the US History TEKS here in Texas was horrifying in their ignorance....

I actually find the hundreds of mistakes in the textbooks...more of a problem. Again, the ignorance is astounding...

[Parker Wayne]

Originally Posted by Obsidian

Problem is we're testing our kids to death. In addition to preparing students for the high school math exams required to pass by the state, students have to do testing, we've got them taking benchmark tests required by the district every few months. We also are giving assessments aligned to the Common Core. And honestly for math, you don't get much qualitative data from multiple choice tests on students' mastery of content.

Agreed. I believe on of the problems with education system is that we place too much emphasis on tests. There are some schools that have become more project based, which I think in some ways does actually work.

Another problem, a more obvious problem is that we're continuing to take funding away from education which is hurting our options for the kids and teens, and thus limiting opportunities for them.

I think both of these problems need to be solved.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

Agreed. I believe on of the problems with education system is that we place too much emphasis on tests. There are some schools that have become more project based, which I think in some ways does actually work.

Another problem, a more obvious problem is that we're continuing to take funding away from education which is hurting our options for the kids and teens, and thus limiting opportunities for them.

I think both of these problems need to be solved.

I can't disagree with that....I'm a teacher, and I hate all of the testing....our testing calendar for this next year has us 35 days of testing out of the 177 that we are in school.....that is RIDICULOUS.....

[Matt Mortem]

I know that when I was in high school the entire curriculum was based around getting the students to pass a standardized test. My school placed less focus on actually learning and more focus on getting people to pass with high marks on a goddamn state mandated test.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Matt Mortem

I know that when I was in high school the entire curriculum was based around getting the students to pass a standardized test. My school placed less focus on actually learning and more focus on getting people to pass with high marks on a goddamn state mandated test.

We teach test taking skills before the first test....but that is about it....the way our TEKS are set up here in Texas....they are (at least for World Geography) are really what you should know about Geography.....and the test is straight from those TEKS....so it is actually a really good EOC....soooooo you teach the TEKS as we are supposed to do....and you don't really have to worry about the tests...91% of our students passed the EOC with flying colors....and we really didn't worry about it.

[Schlosser85]

Schools place too much emphasis on testing. Some good students are just not good test takers...their entire academic career should not hinge on a single test the way it does in some situations...also it's too much pressure.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

Schools place too much emphasis on testing. Some good students are just not good test takers...their entire academic career should not hinge on a single test the way it does in some situations...also it's too much pressure.

I think there is a way to get them prepared....and you really want to get them use to taking tests.....

I am dyslexic, and objective, m/c tests were horrible for me....I slam dunked open ended essay questions, but couldn't take a m/c test to save my life....My Sociology professor in college taught me some test taking skills, and organizational skills to use while I study....and it worked.

I'm glad that she did, because I had to take an objective test to get into the certification program for education....AND....an two objective tests to become certified to teach....

MANY things out there at the college level require these tests...firefighters take these types of tests...policemen take these types of tests...etc

So learning to take that type of test, if you are bad at is.......is IMO, extremely important.

[Kelly]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...nce-african-am

[8wid]

Testing students don't take the standards seriously even after being warned it will effect their opportunities in the future and also costs the school credibility and funding. Imagine if it was all removed and students were not placed into lower classes because they wasted time not taking an exam seriously. Expenses would not have to go towards more math and English classes, especially remedial ones, students would have a fire lit under them, there would be more electives for outside learning and enrichment etc. Schools would also stop getting funding based on how much their students behaved while taking a test. If this was universally applied to all states I bet the graduation rate would increase 10% across the board and higher learning would become more of a priority outside of school.

The next Democrat in the White House needs to pull an Obamacare when it comes to education and provide full funding to all public post-secondary learning institutions and subsidize it by removing defense and foreign aid 2-5%, closing down the Federal Reserve and giving back that authority to the Treasury Department, increasing taxation rates on the wealthy by 20% etc. If need be it's also necessary to cut down on Medicaid and Medicare. Make social security something that can opted out of.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by 8wid

Testing students don't take the standards seriously even after being warned it will effect their opportunities in the future and also costs the school credibility and funding. Imagine if it was all removed and students were not placed into lower classes because they wasted time not taking an exam seriously. Expenses would not have to go towards more math and English classes, especially remedial ones, students would have a fire lit under them, there would be more electives for outside learning and enrichment etc. Schools would also stop getting funding based on how much their students behaved while taking a test. If this was universally applied to all states I bet the graduation rate would increase 10% across the board and higher learning would become more of a priority outside of school.

The next Democrat in the White House needs to pull an Obamacare when it comes to education and provide full funding to all public post-secondary learning institutions and subsidize it by removing defense and foreign aid 2-5%, closing down the Federal Reserve and giving back that authority to the Treasury Department, increasing taxation rates on the wealthy by 20% etc. If need be it's also necessary to cut down on Medicaid and Medicare. Make social security something that can opted out of.

I think most do.....I have to say, with my kids this year, it was their first time to take a full load of tests....they had a total of 5 EOC's....and they worked their butts off during the year, and then the last couple of weeks to prepare for the tests....some that I thought would just blow it off and mark a nice design on the scan tron, actually took their time, and gave it their all....that is how we got a 91% pass rate...in my classes I had a 93% pass rate...they worked hard...and having all of these tests connected to their graduation...made them work harder. I had several that really didn't study, but passed anyway....they came back this summer, reviewed in our EOC camp....and made much, much higher on the test the second time. They knew they could have done better the first time, and they wanted to try again....those that did not pass, well they have not been to school but maybe 30% of the time....and it showed.

If you look at the top educated students in the world...you would find that they actually have very few elective, enrichment classes....DURING school time....those things are left to after school, and weekends. I had a teacher from France in my department...I now teach at a different school so he is no longer one of my teachers....but he is AMAZED, at the amount of money that goes into the funding of things like sports, band, etc.....he said, in France all of those things were done after school, and were only subsidized by the school, not wholly paid for...and they took no time out of the school day. It blew his mind when he found out that athletics was a class, and that athletes actually left school early to go to games....lol

We spend more than any other country in the world per student....it isn't the amount of money, it is how that money is being spent. The public school system, is no better than any other government run entity....it is run inefficiently, and ineffectively....I am a Department Chair, I see it first hand since I am in charge of the Social Studies Department budget. The vendors we use are high priced, and milking us for all we have.....it is ridiculous....and then trying to get rid of bad teachers, to give us a chance to hire good ones....is close to impossible once they have been here past their 3 years....

So money is not the issue, quality teachers, and how the money is spent is the issue....

[Matt Mortem]

I think there should be less of a focus on sports in school. Yes, physical fitness is good, but when kids starting putting all their eggs into the professional athlete basket you know something is wrong.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Matt Mortem

I think there should be less of a focus on sports in school. Yes, physical fitness is good, but when kids starting putting all their eggs into the professional athlete basket you know something is wrong.

I remember when I was teaching Freshmen, and on their introducing themselves activity, I asked what they saw in their future.....he was 4.7 and he said that he was going to be a professional basketball player.... this was my face....

[SuperT]

^ I absolutely agree, and it's even worse amongst the African-American community because its seen as lame to want to be anything other than a rapper, singer, music producer, basketball player, or football player. It's really a shame.

My younger brother was the same way, thankfully he came to his sense. Granted, he has his degree in Sports Marketing & Management, but at least he has a B.S and he does coaching for youth sports on the side.

We really are doing a disservice to our children when we aren't truthful with them and push them to doing things that are just completely out of touch with reality.

[Kelly]

Our Science teachers constantly get the.....I want to be a Pediatrician, a Neurologist...etc....and when you ask them which classes they dislike the most...they say Math and Science....REALLY????

[The Question]

Interesting animation on how we look at education:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[8wid]

^That is why too there needs to be less of a focus on standards and tests and about trying to give students direct work training through high school and college and on how to exist in the community. Having career day at schools is still a very needed idea too.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by 8wid

^That is why too there needs to be less of a focus on standards and tests and about trying to give students direct work training through high school and college and on how to exist in the community. Having career day at schools is still a very needed idea too.

If you look at the national standards, they are pretty much what you need to know from each of the subjects, and most states base their standards on those...the national World Geography standards are excellent...there is no reason why teachers should not be teaching those, or standards based on them...as far as testing. I agree, there are far too many days wasted on "getting ready for the test". In my department we changed to smaller assessments, as well as writing assessments, surveys of what the students felt that they were weak on and needed more class time going over, etc....we did one benchmark, just to see where the kids were, and we did not do a big test again, until the EOC. I was a reader of the EOC for our special education students, and the test was excellent, probably one of the better written tests that I have seen....our students tested 11 points higher than the state average....and they said they were fully prepared for test, yet we really did not spend a lot of time doing objective tests.

IMO, especially in areas where the schools are largely Title I schools, the school year needs to be lengthened. The parents would be better served as well because most in these areas (my school included) the poverty rate is high, the kids get into trouble in the summer, and with 3 months off for summer, they lose a lot of what they learned the year before, and the first 6 or 9 weeks of the next school is reviewing what they learned the last year. Children of poverty have been shown that this is a huge problem. Year around school with 200 days, and 3 weeks to a month off periodically instead of a 3 month period has worked well with this particular demographic. It doesn't show to do much with all demographics, but this particular one it certainly helps.

The problem with that is funding, that is paying teachers and staff 20 more days, and many states just don't have the money, especially the states where unions are strangling the education budget in those states. There is no way those states can pay for those extra 20 days, that alone would bankrupt the state.

Also, getting rid of mediocre teachers, and hiring highly qualified teachers can help.

The KIPP schools in New York, take the lowest testing students in the New York schools and put them into these schools. The teachers are payed VERY WELL, but they do not sign a contract. You can be fired at any time. The teachers usually spend around 50 - 60 hours a week teaching or getting ready to teach their classes, but they are highly qualified teachers that are there for more than June, July and August in the summer....they are constantly doing professional development to always become better. If they don't have the desire to do these things, they are let go. The schools did not turn these kids into geniuses, but they did on average raise their reading level by 2 + years. For children of poverty, that is huge....they will go into their Junior High and High School years ahead of their classmates, rather than the usual being behind 1 to 2 reading levels.

My school also last year, went from 4 Pre AP World Geography classes to 16 sections of Pre AP World Geography, more sections than regular World Geography....some of the students were scared to death, but as usually happens they rose to the expectations of the teachers and they were shocked at how well they did.

Unfortunately, the Principal moved to open a new Junior High School in the district, and the Principal over the school now has absolutely no vision and will bring the school down just as they did the high school...the 9th grade center was what held the full High School above water, that won't happen next year I'm afraid. I moved with the Principal to open the new Junior High, so that vision will start those kids off right. Most districts are more about benefits, and raises for teachers than they are about the kids....you want to change the education system? Get teachers and administration, along with school boards that have a passion for young people, and you will see changes. Money is not always the answer, and throwing out assessments isn't either....they will have these throughout many of their careers.

Also, states throwing out their CATE programs is probably the largest, dumbest, most idiotic changes ever thought of....not all students go to, need to go to College.....College is just not for them, but trade schools, etc....might be exactly right for them. We have a pharmaceutical program, mechanics program, and computer program in our schools that have quite a few of our students leaving high school right into jobs, that usually pay more than mine.... but that is awesome, and to cut programs like that is just stupid. IMO, simply reallocating the money already there is something that truly needs to be looked at.....also the vendors we use are so overpriced its not even funny.