TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

[Greens]

All three CB films were good this year but the scope and event-like experiences of Avengers and TDKR blow TASM away.

[GamingFreak]

TASM had great writing? I must have dreamed up the crane scenes.

[Broker]

Originally Posted by GamingFreak

TASM had great writing? I must have dreamed up the crane scenes.

Those scenes were beyond cheesy.

I'm a SM fan, but I thought TASM was poor and was an inferior re-make of a decade old movie.

[The_Shadow]

TDKR was fantasic, I really have no complaints. Watching it for the first time in theaters I didn't think it was too long, but I know I'll have a hard time watching it completely through the 3rd/4th/5th time I watch it on DVD.

I found myself trying to compare TDKR and The Avengers and realized they're two completely different movies and both earn 5/5 stars.

[Atom Ant]

Why does everyone discount the Foley character? Foley is simply the representation of the "John Doe" cop of Gotham. and in part the "John Doe" citizen of Gotham. It's in him we see the effect of Batman and his symbol the most. He's not the idealistic John Blake.
He's the everyday cop and through him we see what hope can do to inspire and shake people out of their complacency. When Bats has Gordon light that flare and it sends up the signal. And he looks out of his window and decides to fight instead of hide. that moment when he appears in his dress blues and leads the charge is when you see Bruce's mission finally comes to fruition. and yeah it's seen in the others too. Blake,Selina, the other cops etc..but it's most apparent in Foley.

And that is what this trilogy is all about. What is Batman? A Dark Knight of justice? No. He's a symbol of hope. That if good people find the will to act that nothing is impossible.

[SpideyFan866]

Originally Posted by Broker

Those scenes were beyond cheesy.

I'm a SM fan, but I thought TASM was poor and was an inferior re-make of a decade old movie.

It wasn't a remake.

The only thing the"same" was the origin.

And I mean really, would you rather have them butcher the origin JUST so people won't say it was a remake?

[Atom Ant]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

Yeah. My brother thought the same thing.

Sadly, he hates the Nolan series and even said he think Batman and Robin is BETTER than TDKR.

that's just pants on head retarded.

[SpideyFan866]

and TBH, Comparing TASM to Avengers and TDKR just isn't fair.

Those are films with years and year of build up and story behind them.

TASM is a simple origin story. One with sequel implications, but a simple origin story non the less.

TASM is a film that deserves to be compared with the like of Iron Man and Batman Begins, not TDKR and Avengers where it really pales in comparison, really on the scope alone.

[SpideyFan866]

Originally Posted by Atom Ant

that's just pants on head retarded.

I think it goes beyond that.

[Broker]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

It wasn't a remake.

The only thing the"same" was the origin.

And I mean really, would you rather have them butcher the origin JUST so people won't say it was a remake?

Re-make/re-boot: I think we are splitting hairs.

I didn't suggest they should butcher the origin, my point was that, IMO, this origin story was a poorer version of the 2002 origin story.

[Atom Ant]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

and TBH, Comparing TASM to Avengers and TDKR just isn't fair.

Those are films with years and year of build up and story behind them.

TASM is a simple origin story. One with sequel implications, but a simple origin story non the less.

TASM is a film that deserves to be compared with the like of Iron Man and Batman Begins, not TDKR and Avengers where it really pales in comparison, really on the scope alone.

TASM wasn't terrible. But it wasn't special either.

[SpideyFan866]

Originally Posted by Broker

Re-make/re-boot I think we are splitting hairs.

I didn't suggest they should butcher the origin, my point was that, IMO, this origin story was a poorer version of the 2002 origin story.

Not really.

Was it different?

Yes.

But I think they both represent the time they were made.

If SM1 were released today, it'd be laughable.

[Broker]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

Not really.

Was it different?

Yes.

But I think they both represent the time they were made.

If SM1 were released today, it'd be laughable.

I don't think so, but that's just my personal opinion. You are entitled to yours equally.

There's always an element looking back with rose tinted glasses, of course, but when watching TASM I felt that many of the 2002 origin scenes, such as where Peter is bitten or where he first becomes aware of his new abilities, were superior.

[SpideyFan866]

Originally Posted by Broker

I don't think so, but that's just my personal opinion. You are entitled to yours equally.

There's always an element looking back with rose tinted glasses, of course, but when watching TASM I felt that many of the 2002 origin scenes, such as where Peter is bitten or where he first becomes aware of his new abilities, were superior.

I kinda can agree on that.

While I blame it mainly on the pacing, they did kinda rush through his discovery of his powers.

[Broker]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

I kinda can agree on that.

While I blame it mainly on the pacing, they did kinda rush through his discovery of his powers.

I did feel that. But then TASM was stronger in other areas I think.

To some degree it's horses for courses. As in, I quite like Raimi's shot of the spider chomping down on Peter, whereas others might prefer Webb's more subtle approach here.

Part of me wanted to see him bitten by a heap of spiders when he broke into the lab!

[SpideyFan866]

Originally Posted by Broker

I did feel that. But then TASM was stronger in other areas I think.

To some degree it's horses for courses. As in, I quite like Raimi's shot of the spider chomping down on Peter, whereas others might prefer Webb's more subtle approach here.

Part of me wanted to see him bitten by a heap of spiders when he broke into the lab!

Yeah. When all those spiders fell on him, I thought they were gonna feast on him but alas, only one was able to bite.

At least, one that we saw.

[BatLobsterRises]

But I don't recall him going "I don't want to be Bruce Wayne anymore" in the Pit. So then why couldn't he live as Bruce Wayne? Why does he need to fake his own death on both counts?

No one knows Bruce Wayne is Batman. No one's hunting him as either one of them. Had Batman been outed as Bruce Wayne...then yes, Bruce faking his and Batman's death would have made some sense. But he wasn't. No one knew Bruce was Batman but Gordon.

It seems they just wanted melodrama. Dramatic statue unveiling scene. Speeches. The scene with Fox. Alfred crying. Etc.

The bottom line is that based on what's in the film, he apparently fakes his death for no apparent reason other than being dramatic, and to make The Batman a symbol...which The Batman was anyway, and would have been had he saved Gotham and survived, especially since Blake was apparently going to take over as Batman.

Even with that, I can see why Batman would fake his death, to allow Bruce an exit.

But why the hell would Bruce Wayne need to appear dead as well?

Its like he faked his death for no reason.

So Bruce needs to completely telegraph his endgame to us in the pit? I don't agree with that at all.

I also wasn't saying Bruce retires BECAUSE he saved Gotham from a nuclear annihilation. It's just that if you look at it that way, it seems like a great way for him to go out. If you're gonna retire Batman, that's not a bad way. Just like I thought at first, "okay well if they're gonna kill Batman, a mushroom cloud is a pretty badass way to go out"

The reason he fakes his death as both Wayne and Batman is simple: he wants a life away from Gotham. Alfred's words about there being nothing there for him but pain and tragedy finally sink in. Not to mention the other added benefits of turning Batman into a symbol, the Manor into an orphanage. It's his way of starting over.

Yes, the Nolans chose to keep us out of Bruce's head there until the very end. But that's why I love it. It's a very devious, methodical, and darkly heroic thing Batman/Bruce does at the end. He puts the few people he cares about in the world through hell to achieve his endgame. He's not Jesus on the cross dying to save the world. He's friggin' Batman. I love how the ending reinforced that. It also played off Bruce's paranoia for him to truly sever his ties to everyone like that.

Did the Nolans and Goyer choose to present it that way because they wanted drama, speeches, crying, etc? Well, sure. And it paid off in spades for me.

You don't have to like it The Guard, I'm sure you will debunk everything I've said here blow by blow and explain why it didn't have to be that way, but all I'm saying is that for me and many others, the ending worked emotionally, it worked for the character, and it was as satisfying a conclusion to Batman's story as I've ever seen, even if I could have more or less guessed it. The execution of it, the music, Bruce's funeral, Caine's performance...it had impact.

When you watch the movie a second time with the mindset that post-pit Bruce knows that stopping the nuke is his last mission, things just fall into place a bit more. The fact that he lures Selina to his side with the clean slate, etc.

People might say the movie "cheated" us there, but I don't think so. The first time you watch it, maybe. But the movie is not designed to be watched just once. Nolan knows we'll be watching this movie for years to come. Personally, I'm glad there's no moment in which the movie lets us in on Bruce's plan. It's just not something I want to see, I like it more as Bruce's "prestige" as it were. If you're looking at "The Pit" as the movie-verse version of a Lazarus Pit, it just seems so fitting that he makes it out of there and ends up getting a "new life" as it were.

[tdeverea]

Originally Posted by SpideyFan866

and TBH, Comparing TASM to Avengers and TDKR just isn't fair.

Those are films with years and year of build up and story behind them.

TASM is a simple origin story. One with sequel implications, but a simple origin story non the less.

TASM is a film that deserves to be compared with the like of Iron Man and Batman Begins, not TDKR and Avengers where it really pales in comparison, really on the scope alone.

Agreed. I like TASM better than IM for sure. BB just plain kicks a$$ from a story-telling standpoint, and is likely the best origin film ever for a comic book character. For me, only Casino Royale beats it by a hair in the 'overall' category for iconic character origins.

[Reikowolf]

Originally Posted by Broker

I don't think so, but that's just my personal opinion. You are entitled to yours equally.

There's always an element looking back with rose tinted glasses, of course, but when watching TASM I felt that many of the 2002 origin scenes, such as where Peter is bitten or where he first becomes aware of his new abilities, were superior.

I was of the same mind. My argument was founded on how poorly Green Lantern was received. It very much followed the same format as the first Raimi Spider-Man, which was fine in 2002; but TDK was a game changer for the comic book genre.

To that end, I view TASM as parallel to begins, a great starting point and can go so many interesting and great places with the character and mythology (IMHO it's like the Ultimate Universe Anyway)

My only real grievance is how they should have tied it to Avengers, especially with the Crane scene... would it not make a lot of sense if the cranes were their because they were rebuilding Manhattan after the events of Avengers??

[tdeverea]

Originally Posted by Atom Ant

TASM wasn't terrible. But it wasn't special either.

I think there was too much cut from Webb's vision. The director's cut may be quite special. I hope we get to see it.

[Reikowolf]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

So Bruce needs to completely telegraph his endgame to us in the pit? I don't agree with that at all.

I also wasn't saying Bruce retires BECAUSE he saved Gotham from a nuclear annihilation. It's just that if you look at it that way, it seems like a great way for him to go out. If you're gonna retire Batman, that's not a bad way. Just like I thought at first, "okay well if they're gonna kill Batman, a mushroom cloud is a pretty badass way to go out"

The reason he fakes his death as both Wayne and Batman is simple: he wants a life away from Gotham. Alfred's words about there being nothing there for him but pain and tragedy finally sink in. Not to mention the other added benefits of turning Batman into a symbol, the Manor into an orphanage. It's his way of starting over.

Yes, the Nolans chose to keep us out of Bruce's head there until the very end. But that's why I love it. It's a very devious, methodical, and darkly heroic thing Batman/Bruce does at the end. He puts the few people he cares about in the world through hell to achieve his endgame. He's not Jesus on the cross dying to save the world. He's friggin' Batman. I love how the ending reinforced that. It also played off Bruce's paranoia for him to truly sever his ties to everyone like that.

Did the Nolans and Goyer choose to present it that way because they wanted drama, speeches, crying, etc? Well, sure. And it paid off in spades for me.

You don't have to like it The Guard, I'm sure you will debunk everything I've said here blow by blow and explain why it didn't have to be that way, but all I'm saying is that for me and many others, the ending worked emotionally, it worked for the character, and it was as satisfying a conclusion to Batman's story as I've ever seen, even if I could have more or less guessed it. The execution of it, the music, Bruce's funeral, Caine's performance...it had impact.

When you watch the movie a second time with the mindset that post-pit Bruce knows that stopping the nuke is his last mission, things just fall into place a bit more. The fact that he lures Selina to his side with the clean slate, etc.

People might say the movie "cheated" us there, but I don't think so. The first time you watch it, maybe. But the movie is not designed to be watched just once. Nolan knows we'll be watching this movie for years to come. Personally, I'm glad there's no moment in which the movie lets us in on Bruce's plan. It's just not something I want to see, I like it more as Bruce's "prestige" as it were. If you're looking at "The Pit" as the movie-verse version of a Lazarus Pit, it just seems so fitting that he makes it out of there and ends up getting a "new life" as it were.

I've said it more than a few times, the script is thick but it all makes sense to the viewer that is paying attention. It's a very solid script and many of the grievances I've noted are based on people's personal tastes and preferences... their expectations do not allow them to enjoy it as much as they could.

Many argue how it went away from the crime-drama elements from TDK, which completely skews their opinion of the movie if that's what they were expecting.

This is very much a terrorism story, which could be argued as being even more "real" and relevant to today's society. The stakes are at the highest they could be for a Batman story in Nolan's universe.

[shallbecomeabat]

Originally Posted by UaalaDan

I don't wish it to loose. I said it deserved to because Avengers is a thousand times better.

Matter of opinion. Man, you really start to annoy the crap out of me with all your negativity. We all get you didn't liked it. You don't have to be a ***** about it. And again with the Avengers thing. At least try some new material, man. Boring.
I still loved it, think its the best out of the three and the best comic book movie in general. GO RISES!

[Reikowolf]

Originally Posted by shallbecomeabat

Matter of opinion. Man, you really start to annoy the crap out of me with all your negativity. We all get you didn't liked it. You don't have to be a ***** about it. And again with the Avengers thing. At least try some new material, man. Boring.
I still loved it, think its the best out of the three and the best comic book movie in general. GO RISES!

haha.

I had a pool going this summer for top grossing summer movie.

I had no doubt Avengers would take it. I knew TDKR would be the better movie though.

I don't think it's fair to compare the two, I loved Avengers; but I also loved TDKR. There's def. room to like both in very different ways and even in some of the same ways.

[kthevs]

A little off topic, but i just got the official novel, and it confirms that Bruce gives Selina the pearl necklace that belonged to his mother.

Bruce is going to get some!

[Atom Ant]

I can think of several reasons he'd want to lost his Bruce Wayne identity.
For one he can't be sure that no one else could ever find out or already knows that he was Batman. And he still has a lot of powerful enemies. This protects Alfred and Selina to some extent.

another is he won't be hounded by paparazzi. he can live pretty normally as long as he keeps a low profile.