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Old 07-24-2012, 10:47 PM   #76
macphisto96
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

All three are great films and they form a whole. Bruce's story is not complete in Begins, nor is it in TDK. Though it wasn't designed at the outset to be a three film arc, Nolan was very effective in turning it into one. Part of that is how much TDKR owes to Begins.

Begins is the most important of the films because it rescued the character in his filmic form. Batman & Robin left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. Batman Begins saw fewer tickets sold (though higher revenue) than Batman & Robin did on its opening weekend, though it did open on a Wednesday. But it had to be built up through word of mouth because I don't think people believed in Batman on film anymore.

This left the door open for The Dark Knight. And while it did see increased interest due to Ledger's death (and it is very unfortunate that both of these last two Batman films have opened under clouds), Ledger's performance and the story would have driven it to double Batman Begins' take because that film set the stage. I think Batman Begins drew a lot of added fans in rentals, HBO viewings, and purchases so that people were willing to spend at the theater. It was all about Begins laying the groundwork.

I love Batman Begins, but I do see it as part of the whole. TDKR makes Begins and TDK better and TDKR wouldn't exist without the other two.

I still LOVE the power of Batman's first appearance and the sheer terror you can see in the thugs he's going after and then in Falcone himself. I love the origin of the Batsignal. And I love the Ra's Al Ghul twist that I didn't see coming the first time because I bought into Ducard. Heck, even the appearance of Zsasz gave me a big smile (scary, huh?).

And watching it after TDKR is even better. Despite all the tragedy we do see in all three films, I'm left smiling because we see people rising above it - not just Bruce.

Nolan made an entertaining and thought provoking trilogy that gives us an incredible character arc for Bruce Wayne. In doing so, he managed to relegate that other WB picture (under the New Line tag), Lord Of The Rings, into second place on the movie trilogy list IMHO. This is a more compact and more interesting work that accomplishes so much more than any other famous film trilogy. The amazing thing to me is that these weren't all filmed together and weren't conceived at the same time. LOTR was unique because it was really one big film, so the consistency was expected. This didn't happen Star Wars as Return Of The Jedi really changed tone quite a bit. The prequels had a tone and visual consistency, but ugh.

I love all three, but Begins was the most important.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #77
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

The "Mr Mom" cracks at Keaton were VERY popular back in 89 from those who didnt like him in the part.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:21 PM   #78
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Well it was 1989, they didn't know any better....

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Old 07-26-2012, 06:07 AM   #79
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

And on the release of the film in 89' didn't most of those people eat humble pie, and have the Bat symbol everywhere!

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Old 07-27-2012, 11:10 AM   #80
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

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Originally Posted by Boom View Post
The problems that drag Batman Begins down for me:

Excessive repetition of the film's theme
- In college, I convinced my roommates to partake in a BB drinking game. Every time a character said the word "fear," you take a shot. Needless to say, we had to stop fifteen minutes in, as we realized that continuing this game would result in all of our deaths. This movie beats its theme over your head so many freakin' times that WB should have offered moviegoers a complimentary visit to the hospital to be checked for concussions. It was just ridiculously heavy-handed at times.

Katie Holmes, and the character of Rachel Dawes as a whole
This issue kinda bleeds over into TDK, but at least TDK benefits from being spared the awfulness that was Katie Holmes. At no point, in all of my viewings of this film, did I ever buy her as a believable assistant district attorney. She looked like a child trying to fit in with the grown ups. The way she spoke her lines with any sense of urgency or reprimand just screamed, "Take me seriously!" She was way out of her depth, and she compensated by trying way too hard.

The character was condescending and holier-than-thou throughout the entire film, to the point where I seriously wondered what the hell Bruce saw in her. All her little snipes and jabs at him throughout the film (and coming to a head when he's getting ready for his ****ing birthday, of all things), just wore extremely thin for me, to the point where I was seriously rooting for Bruce to just say, "You know what? Screw you, Rachel." There was not a single likable thing about her in this movie for me, resulting in the last scene meaning nothing to me.

Preachy, unnatural dialogue
Did Falcone practice that speech of his in anticipation of Bruce showing up? Because there was nothing natural about his dialogue in that particular scene. People just don't talk that way in spontaneous conversation. When a scene blatantly feels scripted, something's wrong.

This problem surfaces with a few other characters as well - notably Ra's al Ghul, Thomas Wayne, and Rachel. With Ra's, it's somewhat okay, given that he was teaching Bruce ideologies and techniques. But with Thomas and Rachel, it got really heavy-handed at times.

One-liners
Horrible.

Under-utilized villains
Scarecrow being the most egregious of the three. Nolan had an opportunity to go all-out with the Scarecrow - particularly with the fear toxin sequences. Instead, we get a character who is taken out of the picture in the most anti-climactic, pathetic way humanly possible, and fear toxin sequences that were incredibly subdued and left so much to be desired. The character was just barely better than boring. With minor tweaking, he could have been removed from the film, and the plot would have been almost entirely intact.

The third act
All the good faith that Nolan had built up in the first act was almost wiped away with the brainless third act. We went from a thoughtful, engaging character study to a dumbed-down, generic action movie with the monorail sequence.

The batsuit
This is a completely re-invented take on Batman, but we get yet another rubber batsuit? What a ****ing disappointment. It still hurts.

Bruce does not kill?
Bruce claims he will not take a life, yet his actions in the monastery result in the deaths of several ninjas, his actions in the Tumbler endangered the lives of law-enforcing police officers, and his inaction on the monorail resulted in the death of Ra's al Ghul. So homicide is a no-no, but negligent manslaughter is fine and dandy? That doesn't sound like the Batman I know.
I agree with pretty much every point. Dawes was insufferable, the dialogue hammy, staged, and overladen with cheese, and Nolan has this tendency (also in TDK) of smacking you incessantly over the head with the themes (in case you missed 'em!) Caine and Freeman play fictionalised versions of themselves, and Bruce's thou-shall-not-kill rule seemed a little muddled, as his actions or inactions lead to numerous deaths (I don't think that that bound prisoner or any of the unconscious League members could have made it out of the exploding pagoda...). I also hate Nolan's blockbuster gags: how many times during a chase sequence does he have to cut away to someone sitting innocuously, before having the Tumbler/Batpod blare past them - cue shocked bystander face. He does this numerous times in both BB and TDK, and sometimes within the same sequence. I know he wants a chuckle from the audience but damn ...
Saying that, the atmosphere was great (rain, smoke, and gloom) the corruption of the GPD was nice and gritty, Oldman is perfect, I always like to see Rutger Hauer, and I liked the batsuit.


Last edited by Valaquen; 07-27-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:22 PM   #81
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
After seeing TDKR, I can safely say Begins is better. Much better.

TDK is still the best, IMO.
Yeah I realized this after I saw TDKR again but this time preceded by the first 2 Nolan movies. Despite BB's flaws (and boy do I think it has many) I enjoy it much more than TDKR particularly because the character arcs are richer since they stick to the internal logic set within the film.

There is no moment where you really feel things are contradicting themselves with the characters' actions like TDKR. It's very consistent as opposed to jumping around all over the place to the point that we go "WTF" like in TDKR.

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Old 07-27-2012, 08:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Hi Peeps.

To me, the first Batman from Tim Burton is the quintessial Batman movie.

Only the Animated Series surpasses it but when it comes to "live" flicks, Burton is on top.

Then, out of the three Nolan ones, Batman Begins is EASILY the BEST "Batman" Movie".

Why ?

For many reasons but mainly for the (keyword here) Batman

It's the one Dark Knight flick that focuses the most on The Caped Crusader himself .

It's the first and last true "origin story" for this super hero and it's an amazing journey from Gotham to Asia to Gotham City again.

It's definitively the ultimate "Bruce Wayne" Flick as well.

To me , the best Batman experience has to be about The Caped Crusader himself first and foremost.

TDK gave way too much importance to the villain and I was appaled to see how people were considering The Joker as the legit "hero" of this one...

TDR is also about Bane more than Batman himself.

And I Don't find a frickin terrorist appealing the slightest.

What I truly loved on BB is also the use of two villains which were never ever used in a Batman live stuff .

Especially The Scarecrow.

I love the fact that the villain uses the Arkham Asylum as his main target to weakness Batman and Gotham as a whole.

The "fear" factor is also a huge plus to me.

I love the mysticism of some images and scenes on it, I love how Batman is DOMINANT.

He is the one in charge, he is the one who kicks asses and he is the one winning and standing TALL in the end.

That's how any super hero movie should be as far as I'm concerned.

Let's add ninjas (who doesn't like Ninjas ?) into the mix and some beautiful photography and stages and you get a movie that is, indeed, a masterpiece.

BB is, for me, the one Nolan's Batman that can stand multiple viewings and It never gets old .

Last but not least, it's also the only one of the three where I can stand Bale's voice as The Dark Knight.

It works well on BB while it's extremely irritating and annoying on the other two (where he sounds like a guy with a serious case of asthma).

Batman Begins >>> TDK + TDR

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Old 07-27-2012, 10:04 PM   #83
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Doesn't the '89 Batman focus too much on Joker too, though?

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Old 07-27-2012, 10:09 PM   #84
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

The '89 film was just as much about the Joker as TDK was. In my opinion, either you like the Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole, or you don't. If you are looking at the three films as a story at least.

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Old 07-27-2012, 10:12 PM   #85
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Yeah I realized this after I saw TDKR again but this time preceded by the first 2 Nolan movies. Despite BB's flaws (and boy do I think it has many) I enjoy it much more than TDKR particularly because the character arcs are richer since they stick to the internal logic set within the film.

There is no moment where you really feel things are contradicting themselves with the characters' actions like TDKR. It's very consistent as opposed to jumping around all over the place to the point that we go "WTF" like in TDKR.
Exactly my feelings on it

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Doesn't the '89 Batman focus too much on Joker too, though?
TDK didn't focus on Joker, Batman 1989 did. Everything revolved around him including Batman's origin was tied to him.

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Old 07-27-2012, 11:05 PM   #86
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Well, I definitely thought so, but it just seemed funny that someone would say they love '89 Batman while they grew tired of Joker "being the main focus" in TDK.

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Old 07-28-2012, 04:28 AM   #87
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Because compared to 89 Joker, TDK Joker reeked of horrible, horrible, plot-hole filled writing.

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Old 07-28-2012, 09:53 AM   #88
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

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Because compared to 89 Joker, TDK Joker reeked of horrible, horrible, plot-hole filled writing.
You mean like announcing on public TV that you'll be at the Gotham parade at midnight to give free cash out, and there's no Cops there waiting for you when you arrive? Like being able to shoot the Batwing down with one shot using a gimmick long barrel gun? You mean like randomly climbing the Gotham cathedral on the spur of the moment and having henchmen stashed up there already?

I like Batman 1989, but it all revolved around the Joker. The Joker got an origin story from Jack Napier to super villain, the Joker was after Vicki Vale, the Joker killed Batman's parents. The whole narrative was focused on the Joker. That's something that the movie was criticized over:

Quote:
Many observed that Burton was more interested in the Joker rather than Batman in terms of characterization and screen time. Comic book fans reacted negatively over the Joker murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the comic book, Joe Chill is responsible. Writer Sam Hamm, who is a comic book fan, said it was Burton's idea to have the Joker murder Wayne's parents. "The Writer's Strike was going on," Hamm continued, "and Tim had the other writers do that. I also hold innocent to Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave," he reasoned. "Fans were ticked off with that, and I agree. That would have been Alfred's last day of employment at Wayne Manor."
http://destinyosbourne.hubpages.com/hub/the-batman

Ledger's Joker had less screen time than Batman, Dent, and even Gordon. He was not the narrative focus. He wasn't even in the final showdown scene in the movie.

Ledger created a memorable character through great performance. Nicholson dominated the story and screen time. I love Nicholson's Joker, but that's what he did.

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Old 07-28-2012, 11:32 AM   #89
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You mean like announcing on public TV that you'll be at the Gotham parade at midnight to give free cash out, and there's no Cops there waiting for you when you arrive? Like being able to shoot the Batwing down with one shot using a gimmick long barrel gun? You mean like randomly climbing the Gotham cathedral on the spur of the moment and having henchmen stashed up there already?


God that makes me love '89 Batman even more with the terrible writing with the final act.

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Old 07-28-2012, 12:10 PM   #90
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God that makes me love '89 Batman even more with the terrible writing with the final act.
Apparently that was scripted without Burton even knowing. They built the sets and during filming Nicholson was asking what was meant to be happening as he and Basinger went up the tower. Burton had to tell him that he didn't know.

I re-watched B89 last night for the first time in a while and found the beginning to be very tight, gritty, gothic, and it has a nice angle on Batman - he's almost supernatural and Keaton plays him very cold and emotionless. Now and then his eyes flare with madness. I've always wondered if he deliberately dropped Napier... The middle of the film is less interesting, probably because the Vale-Wayne romance is a little contrived and the Joker himself is a little directionless. He has a plan but he's in it to sate his own narcissism and sadism (and Nicholson's Joker is very much a sadist, mutilating Alicia to satisfy an 'artistic' urge, etc. His narcissism is obvious from Nicholson's first scene), so there's no real mystery there, whereas in TDK (a film I don't even particularly enjoy) the Joker is always a step ahead, ducking and weaving and beguiling, which keeps the plot on the constant move. The last act of B89 picks up - much more excitement, and more wonderful toys, though Gotham's police are conspicuously absent during the parade, which is a mistake I think, because I really liked the corruption angle in the first part of the film. Despite this, Gotham's presented very well - the cops are corrupt, the mob rules, the city is financially bankrupt, its public officials ineffectual ... you can definitely see the template on which Batman Begins was built, or rather, since Begins was based on Year One, the template that Begins continued.

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Old 07-28-2012, 12:14 PM   #91
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

The absence of police is understandable imo and explainable. The police appeared exactly 11 minutes after Jokers float first appeared in the shot, and when they appeared they appeared in full force, with lights etc. Thats a very fast reaction time considering mobilization of the forces against horde of gangsters with machine guns and choppers, and considering that Gotham is huge. And Joker never revealed the location of the parade, if so, people would be lined up for money right away, same with cops and media. he just said hes gonna have a parade and give out money, without details. But thats a suybject thats been very much debated by detractors of the movie. I dont want to open Pandoras box again

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Old 07-28-2012, 04:33 PM   #92
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

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God that makes me love '89 Batman even more with the terrible writing with the final act.
I think the whole movie has terrible writing. It's pretty boring to watch for me. I can barely make it past Joker shaking his booty to Prince in the museum.

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Old 07-29-2012, 11:42 AM   #93
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Begins was the best Batman movie ever.

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Old 07-30-2012, 02:57 AM   #94
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Begins was the best IMO. It was so subtle and not in-your-face, and very intelligently made. It was fresh. It was a game changer. There was so much nuance in every character and it seemed that everyone were giving it their best (cough!Bale!cough!) Batman himself (or Bale's Batman) was his best in Begins and there was so much of Bruce and Batman - TDK and TDKR was more villainous and that's okay, but if you're a fan of Batman, you want more bats!!! It was symbolic and I can watch a hundred times and not get bored, which for me is the litmus test for a good movie. It's a classic film. The scene with his parents' death was the best in any movie, comic, cartoon EVER. The moment is iconic. When he looks upon the suit for the first time, WOW! The music, the scenery, the set, the actors, the direction, the script, the script, the script! Begins just knocked it out of the park and it's a pity that it made the least of the trilogy.

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Old 07-30-2012, 08:39 AM   #95
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Hands down BB is my favourite. I think how much focus was given to Bruce Wayne and Batman was key here. I never understood how in the past, Batman was overlooked because he is a fascinating character, as is his particular crusade on crime.

The quick-cut fights, the Tumbler, the exploration of guilt and anger, the corruption, the definition of a vigilante and symbol, the real meaning of justice etc. So many great things upon in the film. Where as in TDK, whilst it is a very good film it does sideline Bruce Wayne and Batman. And I have to say the Joker does steal the show whether you want to admit it not. People bang on about the film being the best but if it weren't for Ledger's Joker, the film would have suffered. Dent's arc was rushed and some of his actions a bit puzzling, such as his sudden personality switch when he kidnapped Thomas Schiff. I thought Gotham in TDK looked unrecognisable from the Gotham of BB. I really missed the Gotham set. Scarecrow was just tossed away like an afterthought and ironically, the Joker is all against order and those with plans yet he orchestrated the most complicated one! I thought the fight scenes looked too choreographed in the Penthouse scene.

And thankfully Nolan concluded the series with TDKR. I always knew there would be a follow-up film as I couldn't be satisfied with the TDK. Batman's supposed to endure all hardship, how good is that message if you just end the series with him riding off on the Batpod?

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Old 07-30-2012, 11:55 AM   #96
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Moon View Post
Hi Peeps.

To me, the first Batman from Tim Burton is the quintessial Batman movie.

Only the Animated Series zsurpasses it but when it comes to "live" flicks, Burton is on top.

Then, out of the three Nolan ones, Batman Begins is EASILY the BEST "Batman" Movie".

Why ?

For many reasons but mainly for the (keyword here) Batman

It's the one Dark Knight flick that focuses the most on The Caped Crusader himself .

It's the first and last true "origin story" for this super hero and it's an amazing journey from Gotham to Asia to Gotham City again.

It's definitively the ultimate "Bruce Wayne" Flick as well.

To me , the best Batman experience has to be about The Caped Crusader himself first and foremost.

TDK gave way too much importance to the villain and I was appaled to see how people were considering The Joker as the legit "hero" of this one...

TDR is also about Bane more than Batman himself.

And I Don't find a frickin terrorist appealing the slightest.

What I truly loved on BB is also the use of two villains which were never ever used in a Batman live stuff .

Especially The Scarecrow.

I love the fact that the villain uses the Arkham Asylum as his main target to weakness Batman and Gotham as a whole.

The "fear" factor is also a huge plus to me.

I love the mysticism of some images and scenes on it, I love how Batman is DOMINANT.

He is the one in charge, he is the one who kicks asses and he is the one winning and standing TALL in the end.

That's how any super hero movie should be as far as I'm concerned.

Let's add ninjas (who doesn't like Ninjas ?) into the mix and some beautiful photography and stages and you get a movie that is, indeed, a masterpiece.

BB is, for me, the one Nolan's Batman that can stand multiple viewings and It never gets old .

Last but not least, it's also the only one of the three where I can stand Bale's voice as The Dark Knight.

It works well on BB while it's extremely irritating and annoying on the other two (where he sounds like a guy with a serious case of asthma).

Batman Begins >>> TDK + TDR
rating batman movies is subjective and thus no one is wrong but from a writers point of view TDK would have to be the best film followed by TDR and just behind BB the reason being the following

in any battle for divinity i.E good vs bad or superhero analogies the villain sets the plot and thus is the base of the story, yes the good guy needs to be defined but the bad guy even if its not implied is the main character as he sets the tempo and also provides a drastic change from the norm

in shakespeare play Othello, iago was the main character

in spiderman who ever is the respective villain in the episode is the main character but usually venom

in batman its joker: the jokers character is the best defined and also sets a drastic confusion about true motivation i. E the jokers reason for existing is as a counter effect to batman, to challenge batman to bet batman but not to kill him the ultimate battle of order vs chaos

ill leave TDR up to you, BB is a drama to an extent as it is a self realisation journey and not much of a superhero plot exept Ras whos reasons are an awsome plot establishment which worked for 2 movies TDR and BB

that would have to make TDK the best movie

look at it this way: when a cop arrests a women who murdered her husband would you be interested in why the cop arrested her or why she killed her husband you might be interested in how the cop arrested her but thats a sherlock holmes plot

batman is joker

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:23 PM   #97
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

I'd agree with the original poster if this was the only Batman movie in existence, but it isn't. Anyways "the greatest batman film" hasn't been made yet, imo.

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:26 PM   #98
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

I'd put TDKR tied at #1 with Returns for my fave Batman movie, with BB in my top 5. TDK is probably one of the worst Batman movies, only slightly better than Schumacher's movies and the 60's movie.

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:28 PM   #99
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Default Re: Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

I actually enjoy TDK a heck of a lot more than BB.

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:31 PM   #100
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TDK, and it's not even close for me. Damn near flawless. Truly a memorable piece of cinema.
Quoted for truth.

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