The Amazing Spider-Man: Box Office Thread - Part 2

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Because we are talking about Marvel making the Solo Spider man movie so we have to see their track record with solo movies

Because that still makes sense?

You were talking about Marvel movies in general and now trying to count Avengers out? Lol.

[Picard Sisko]

I think if Marvel had the film rights for Spider-Man they would have treated him very well in a solo film. In fact, they probably would have started out with a Spider-Man movie rather than Iron Man (if Sony never had the rights to begin with).

[Picard Sisko]

I still say the MCU feels a bit empty without Spider-Man.

[I Am The Knight]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

I hated that montage scene though... we spend all of this time watching his origin story, and when he is finally Captain America, we get a montage.

Oh yeah, there should've definitely been more Cap.

[Spiderdevil]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Because that still makes sense?

You were talking about Marvel movies in general and now trying to count Avengers out? Lol.

Lets make it more clear
I am not a fan of how they deal with Origins,and Avengers wasnt a origin movie

[Lorus]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Like?

Sad moments? The film's not overflowing with them but off the top of my head: Thor's exasperated but heartfelt plea to Loki to come home, Tony grieving Coulson and declaring that they're not soldiers, Fury looking down at Coulson's trading cards and realising how he's used his friend's prized possessions, Tony calling Pepper and her being too worried to notice the phone call etc.

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Like when he gets those eggs for Auntmay in the end and returns battered and bruised and they hug
Or that moment when he is sitting alone in his room after saving that kid and you could feel how much he misses his Father
Or when he listens to his Uncle's Voice mail in the end
Or when he goes after all those thugs in a rush of revenge
Or When CapStacy Dies and he asks Gwen to go away

Basically I mean the moments when you fell that Spider Man is a human aswell,he will face the same insecurities,pain or joy that we feel in contrast to a group of superheros fighting an alien force,the way it was shown,you cant relate to any of them and never feel their joy or sorrow


Definitely

Moments of humanity is what you mean? The Avengers is absolutely chock full of heart in that case. Here are some examples:

-Bruce rocking the cradle in India, thinking of the life he never had.
-Steve relentlessly punching the bag, breaking it, sighing and going at it again showing how frustrated and upset he is.
- Pepper and Coulson happily discussing Coulson's love life.
-Coulson's asking Cap to sign his trading cards/Natasha pre-empting the question painting the picture of one co-worker being overly enthusiastic about something and the other having heard far too much about said passion.
-Steve paying Fury despite never formally accepting the bet because he's a man of his word.
-Natasha silently searching for Hawkeye on the monitors.
-Thor trying to get through to his brother by appealing to their childhood.
-Steve's reaction to getting a pop culture reference, his momentary sense of pride.
-Tony and Bruce bonding.
-Natasha sitting silently, letting herself be afraid before steeling herself because she has a job to do.
-Natasha punching Hawkeye after he's recovered, blaming him for worrying her.
-Thor and Hulk sitting awkwardly on the Leviathan, unsure how to react to each other given their past encounter followed by Hulk's punch to claim dominance.

There are so many more moments like this, that list was just a few minutes of remembering. Each and every one reminds us that these people are human and feel the same things we do, they exist for more than just punching. Heck, half of them don't even serve the plot but are present just because they resonate.

Avengers wasn't a origin movie

Functionally it was, given it had to establish the team, how they reacted to each other and the world. The characters were also all re-introduced for the newcomers.

[Jexx]

I loved the Captain America film :/

[Spiderdevil]

Originally Posted by Lorus

Thor's exasperated but heartfelt plea to Loki to come home, Tony grieving Coulson and declaring that they're not soldiers, Fury looking down at Coulson's trading cards and realising how he's used his friend's prized possessions, Tony calling Pepper and her being too worried to notice the phone call etc.

Hardly sad,As I said,I felt no emotion after Coulsen's death

Moments of humanity is what you mean? The Avengers is absolutely chock full of heart in that case. Here are some examples:

-Bruce rocking the cradle in India, thinking of the life he never had.
-Steve relentlessly punching the bag, breaking it, sighing and going at it again showing how frustrated and upset he is.
- Pepper and Coulson happily discussing Coulson's love life.
-Coulson's asking Cap to sign his trading cards/Natasha pre-empting the question painting the picture of one co-worker being overly enthusiastic about something and the other having heard far too much about said passion.
-Steve paying Fury despite never formally accepting the bet because he's a man of his word.
-Natasha silently searching for Hawkeye on the monitors.
-Thor trying to get through to his brother by appealing to their childhood.
-Steve's reaction to getting a pop culture reference, his momentary sense of pride.
-Tony and Bruce bonding.
-Natasha sitting silently, letting herself be afraid before steeling herself because she has a job to do.
-Natasha punching Hawkeye after he's recovered, blaming him for worrying her.
-Thor and Hulk sitting awkwardly on the Leviathan, unsure how to react to each other given their past encounter followed by Hulk's punch to claim dominance.

Except the ones in bold,I dont think the others have as much of a Humanity touch
Hulk's punch on Thor had no purpose,except to gain some laughs
I didnt feel anything about Natasha-Hawkeye romance,Chemistry wasnt there for me
The Trading cards thing was nice touch though
The 'Bonding' moments you mentioned wasnt anything great either
For Spider Man,these moments must be as much as an integral part as his powers rather than just being there for the sake of it
Webb did this really really well in TASM along with the origin part,the only place where the movie failed was developing the Villian properly and his motives.With a good script this should can be done easily in TAS-M 2

Functionally it was, given it had to establish the team, how they reacted to each other and the world. The characters were also all re-introduced for the newcomers.

The Fantastic 4 and X-Men series have to deal with establishing-the-team part aswell as giving the Audience an idea about how the members gained/mastered their powers(Something TA didnt have to do)

[©KAW]

Goodness, he thinks The Avengers is chock full of heart, it isn't even chock full of good acting. The best part apart about The Avengers is...its box office numbers. Being that Marvel/Disney isn't cutting me a check, that's moot.

Like one Batman fan said to me, it's a good thing that TDKR didn't beat The Avengers at the box office or Avengers Fans would have nothing else to talk about but the ACTION in that film.

Marvel/Disney needs to stay as far away from Spider-Man's film rights as humanly possible. As I said, Marvel doesn't deserve their own characters.

[AF3619]

Well is opinion but i don´t think TASM failed

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Lets make it more clear
I am not a fan of how they deal with Origins,and Avengers wasnt a origin movie

The only origin films there were were Iron Man and Captain America and both were done extremely well, but Iron Man gets the edge because it was a better film overall. I don't count Thor as being an origin film at all because there couldn't really be an origin film and it was a spectacular movie. Iron Man 2 was a sequel. The Incredible Hulk dealt with the origin during the credits and it was at least better than Iron Man 2.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by AF3619

Well is opinion but i don´t think TASM failed

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Why couldn't Green Lantern's suit look more like that? That actually looks pretty cool and better than some kind of lantern magic wrapped around some naked body.

[©KAW]

I don't count Thor as being an origin film at all because there couldn't really be an origin film and it was a spectacular movie.

The THOR was spectacular? Good Lord. The second film where my beloved and talented Natalie Portman was turned into a mediocre actress like in The Phantom Menace. Actually, she was worst in Thor. Big and Dumb is how I describe the film, directed like a giant commercial for the toys.

GLADIATOR (by Ridley Scott) is the model/blueprint in which the THOR should have looked like.

[Jexx]

Originally Posted by AF3619

Well is opinion but i don´t think TASM failed

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Funny, most people in the comics are disagreeing with that post.. lol

[Lorus]

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Hardly sad,As I said,I felt no emotion after Coulsen's death

I was merely pointing out moments in which sadness was an appropriate emotion and the film was promoting it, to illustrate that the film was written with the same care to emotions as TASM. Anecdotes are pretty meaningless, I felt no emotion after Ben or Captain Stacy's death.

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

Except the ones in bold,I dont think the others have as much of a Humanity touch
Hulk's punch on Thor had no purpose,except to gain some laughs
I didnt feel anything about Natasha-Hawkeye romance,Chemistry wasnt there for me

How do they not add humanity though? Each and every small moment serves as proof that all these characters are driven by the same emotions as us, they help us understand what makes these people tick and do what they do. Take the friendship, not romance, between Natasha and Clint, this is shown to us organically before they share a line of dialogue. Natasha searching the monitors for Hawkeye has no point for the plot, it won't help, nobody mentions it so why did they go to the trouble of shooting it? Whedon did it because he's telling a story about people.

Taking a scene that doesn't even need any explicit moments of character, the Natasha/Clint fight, Whedon still includes it. Why doesn't the scene begin with Natasha finding Clint and end with her knocking him out, that's all it needs to do. Instead Whedon lingers on the trauma of a woman we know is near unflappable, we watch her pull herself together and then the fight can start. Rather than just have Natasha punch him out in a hollow gesture, Whedon has Clint recover and look at Natasha so we can see her choose to punch him anyway, telling us so much about their relationship.

Your refusal to accept that comic moments offer anchors for us to see the humanity of the situation is baffling. Of course Hulk punching Thor has a meaning, of course Steve getting a Wizard of Oz reference means something. Humour is the ultimate tool for instilling humanity, it would be as silly as saying 'Peter giving his aunt eggs was just to get a cheap laugh to reference a previous scene, it has no meaning.'

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

The Trading cards thing was nice touch though
The 'Bonding' moments you mentioned wasnt anything great either
For Spider Man,these moments must be as much as an integral part as his powers rather than just being there for the sake of it
Webb did this really really well in TASM along with the origin part,the only place where the movie failed was developing the Villian properly and his motives.With a good script this should can be done easily in TAS-M 2

I've just illustrated how Whedon obviously went out of his way to include these moments because he recognises how integral they are to the film. I'm pointing all this out to dispel the foolish notion that the Avengers is empty spectacle with little heart. It clearly has as much 'heart' and humanity in at as TASM.

Originally Posted by Spiderdevil

The Fantastic 4 and X-Men series have to deal with establishing-the-team part aswell as giving the Audience an idea about how the members gained/mastered their powers(Something TA didnt have to do)

None of those films had to go into any detail about power etc if the filmmakers didn't want to. The Avengers made sense to people who had never seen the previous films because it gave them everything they needed to know off the bat. It's a myth that these things need to be explained.

Goodness, he thinks The Avengers is chock full of heart, it isn't even chock full of good acting. The best part apart about The Avengers is...its box office numbers. Being that Marvel/Disney isn't cutting me a check, that's moot.

Care to actually posit an argument to the contrary? Explain to my deluded self why TASM has 'heart' and the Avengers doesn't.

[©KAW]

Originally Posted by Lorus

Care to actually posit an argument to the contrary? Explain to my deluded self why TASM has 'heart' and the Avengers doesn't.

Sure I would, the acting in The Avengers is below average, hokey at best. In order to convey "heart" you have to able to touch the audience with a scene or two, something with some emotional pull, that doesn't include words like...WE'VE GOTTA HULK! There was more emotional pull in ASM than The Avengers--in the The Avengers almost every scene was played for laughs or an action scene.

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by ©KAW

Sure I would, the acting in The Avengers is below average, hokey at best. In order to convey "heart" you have to able to touch the audience with a scene or two, something with some emotional pull, that doesn't include words like...WE'VE GOTTA HULK! There was more emotional pull in ASM than The Avengers--in the The Avengers almost every scene was played for laughs or an action scene.

Including humor doesn't mean scenes are played for laughs. The scene with Cap and Coulson on the way to the helicarrier is not a funny scene. It just had humor. So, where was the action or laughs when Fury talks to Stark and Rogers after Coulson dies? Also, the writing in Avengers had many things going for it, without outright saying it. Example: Cap asks Coulson if the stars and stripes are old fashioned. In this scene, he is not talking the costume being old fashioned. He is talking about himself. The scene is about Coulson telling Cap the world still needs HIM. Not his costume. Avengers works the dialogue heavily this way so they say a lot while making them say little. THAT is good writing. Not crafting villains that have silly motives that make little sense or having crane operators randomly make Spider-Man a path for plot conveniance.

[Goran]

Cool to see that I got my prediction right..

Still wish he would make some more money though...

[Lorus]

Originally Posted by ©KAW

Sure I would, the acting in The Avengers is below average, hokey at best. In order to convey "heart" you have to able to touch the audience with a scene or two, something with some emotional pull, that doesn't include words like...WE'VE GOTTA HULK! There was more emotional pull in ASM than The Avengers--in the The Avengers almost every scene was played for laughs or an action scene.

I'm not sure how to respond to the idea that the acting in the Avengers is below average. I don't know how to debate that without getting into an incredibly detailed analysis of each scene and cross referencing it with ideas about what acting is. All I can say now is that I disagree and I think the majority would.

'Emotional pull' is an incredibly vague term, what constitutes 'something with an emotional pull', why do some of the things I've described above for example fail at providing it? Is it all because of your bizarre view on the acting?

It's also incredibly simplistic to describe a scene as being played for any one emotion when most scenes will have different moments which inspire different things, like life. Also, if you inspire laughter with your scenes when you intend to, you are connecting with an audience on some emotional level.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by ©KAW

The THOR was spectacular? Good Lord. The second film where my beloved and talented Natalie Portman was turned into a mediocre actress like in The Phantom Menace. Actually, she was worst in Thor. Big and Dumb is how I describe the film, directed like a giant commercial for the toys.

GLADIATOR (by Ridley Scott) is the model/blueprint in which the THOR should have looked like.

That's a cool story.

[©KAW]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

Including humor doesn't mean scenes are played for laughs. The scene with Cap and Coulson on the way to the helicarrier is not a funny scene. It just had humor. So, where was the action or laughs when Fury talks to Stark and Rogers after Coulson dies? Also, the writing in Avengers had many things going for it, without outright saying it. Example: Cap asks Coulson if the stars and stripes are old fashioned. In this scene, he is not talking the costume being old fashioned. He is talking about himself. The scene is about Coulson telling Cap the world still needs HIM. Not his costume. Avengers works the dialogue heavily this way so they say a lot while making them say little. THAT is good writing. Not crafting villains that have silly motives that make little sense or having crane operators randomly make Spider-Man a path for plot conveniance.

The writing in the Avengers worked the dialogue in a way, so that it could hurry up to the next action scene. Sadly enough, those specific scenes that you named with The Torch...I mean Cap, would have worked if the guy actually knew how to act. It held no emotional weight, which is why those scenes never took hold for me.

Not to mention with all that's going on, I never felt any of the characters or New Yorkers were ever in any danger, simply because of the jokes being spewed at the worst possible time. The way The Hulk was slamming around LOKI like he was BAMM BAMM from the Flintstones, was ten times worst than the crane scene, now that was silly. These characters may be strong in super-strength, but they're weak in making me believe who they're suppose to be. Someone needs to tell Robert Downey Jr. to stop playing himself and give us an actual performance. Or as I like to call it The Avengers=The Downey Show.

[©KAW]

Originally Posted by Lorus

I'm not sure how to respond to the idea that the acting in the Avengers is below average. I don't know how to debate that without getting into an incredibly detailed analysis of each scene and cross referencing it with ideas about what acting is. All I can say now is that I disagree and I think the majority would.

'Emotional pull' is an incredibly vague term, what constitutes 'something with an emotional pull', why do some of the things I've described above for example fail at providing it? Is it all because of your bizarre view on the acting?

It's also incredibly simplistic to describe a scene as being played for any one emotion when most scenes will have different moments which inspire different things, like life. Also, if you inspire laughter with your scenes when you intend to, you are connecting with an audience on some emotional level.

The acting is below average, come on, the film has some A-List actors (Downey, Sam L. Jackson) in it, why are they not performance as such?

I take it, you like the air-humping Peter Parker and the toilet paper grab in Fantastic Four, because the kids loved it, all of their little emotions were all a flutter. However, mine was not. But hey, at least they're connecting to the audience.

When you put together several of Marvel's classic heroes spanning decades, I expect more than just a Pirates of the Caribbean feel to it. Which is why I don't want Marvel anywhere near the Spider-Man films. I don't like their style of filmmaking.

[Just one more]

Originally Posted by ©KAW

The acting is below average, come on, the film has some A-List actors (Downey, Sam L. Jackson) in it, why are they not performance as such?

I take it, you like the air-humping Peter Parker and the toilet paper grab in Fantastic Four, because the kids loved it, all of their little emotions were all a flutter. However, mine was not. But hey, at least they're connecting to the audience.

When you put together several of Marvel's classic heroes spanning decades, I expect more than just a Pirates of the Caribbean feel to it. Which is why I don't want Marvel anywhere near the Spider-Man films. I don't like their style of filmmaking.

Trolling, you must be. No-one could be that ignorant!

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by ©KAW

The writing in the Avengers worked the dialogue in a way, so that it could hurry up to the next action scene. Sadly enough, those specific scenes that you named with The Torch...I mean Cap, would have worked if the guy actually knew how to act. It held no emotional weight, which is why those scenes never took hold for me.

Not to mention with all that's going on, I never felt any of the characters or New Yorkers were ever in any danger, simply because of the jokes being spewed at the worst possible time. The way The Hulk was slamming around LOKI like he was BAMM BAMM from the Flintstones, was ten times worst than the crane scene, now that was silly. These characters may be strong in super-strength, but they're weak in making me believe who they're suppose to be. Someone needs to tell Robert Downey Jr. to stop playing himself and give us an actual performance. Or as I like to call it The Avengers=The Downey Show.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it speaks volumes that 99% of people, even ones who hated Avengers, said it was well acted.

[Johe]

Both sides of this argument are kind of ridiculous. TAS and TA are both very good movies, with Avengers probably even being classified as great. And both movies have their strengths.
Avengers is wildly fun and funny, with each character given time to shine and be developed, though to different extents. It DOES have heart for a film of it's type. It easily could have been a mindless blow-em-up popcorn movie, which at times it nearly becomes, but it never forgets to make it's characters feel human. Kudos for that. Excellent movie.

Amazing Spider-Man is character driven. Peter Parker feels as genuine and real as any superhero ever has, IMO. Andrew Garfield is phenomenal. There are several moments I honestly got a little choked up, like when Peter goes into his room after his uncle dies and sinks to the floor as he listens to the voicemail. You feel what he feels. Just spectacular acting. I would say The Amazing Spider-Man is the most intimate superhero movie I've ever seen. But it also has plenty of fun moments, and the action while nothing groundbreaking is coherent and exciting.

Both of these movies offer something that I will enjoy for years to come. And I look forward to the sequels.