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Old 08-04-2012, 04:39 AM   #51
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Truth is, even if we knew the twist was potentially coming it was Nolan's job to ensure it also meant something for us as fans. The audience may have gasped but we didn't, we didn't get the same experience, but we needed something out of it as well. We may have known Harvey Dent was going to be Two-Face but we were made to care about the character, and when he was scarred it sucked, when he died it was tragic, it all meant something even though his fate was sealed. We have no reason to care for Talia and hope she didn't turn against Bruce in this film, they have no relationship, they have no connection, she is little more than a one night stand. Was the 'twist' bad? Yes, because there wasn't something in it for everybody. Everyone who says the general audience loved it ask yourself this, did you really get anything out of it? From what I've read people are just happy Talia is in the film, why is beyond me.

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Old 08-04-2012, 04:47 AM   #52
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Truth is, even if we knew the twist was potentially coming it was Nolan's job to ensure it also meant something for us as fans. The audience may have gasped but we didn't, we didn't get the same experience, but we needed something out of it as well. We may have known Harvey Dent was going to be Two-Face but we were made to care about the character, and when he was scarred it sucked, when he died it was tragic, it all meant something even though his fate was sealed. We have no reason to care for Talia and hope she didn't turn against Bruce in this film, they have no relationship, they have no connection, she is little more than a one night stand. Was the 'twist' bad? Yes, because there wasn't something in it for everybody. Everyone who says the general audience loved it ask yourself this, did you really get anything out of it? From what I've read people are just happy Talia is in the film, why is beyond me.
Maybe, I still think the twist was fine, but the fact once the character got interesting, she was gone before she had anything else to do or develop properly was more of an issue.

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:12 AM   #53
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

It was a classic nolan twist. Even though i knew miranda would be talia the whole time i really bought into the bane origin story they presented so it was indeed a surprise when it was revealed that talia was actually the young child who escaped.

It's true the character wasn't really exceptional she was more the magufin to get to the twist that nolan wanted to deliver.

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:18 AM   #54
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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It was a classic nolan twist. Even though i knew miranda would be talia the whole time i really bought into the bane origin story they presented so it was indeed a surprise when it was revealed that talia was actually the young child who escaped.
i was suprised. but because i am an idiot and i completely forgot about Joey King playing young Talia and shaving her head.

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:25 AM   #55
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

A 'classic' Nolan twist would have been something entirely different or at the very least executed in a far better way. Nolan is better than using Maguffins and yet this film has about 3 of them.

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:39 AM   #56
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i was suprised. but because i am an idiot and i completely forgot about Joey King playing young Talia and shaving her head.
I was in the same case But I think this movie should raise some question about knowing secret of a movie before its release.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:34 AM   #57
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I was in the same case But I think this movie should raise some question about knowing secret of a movie before its release.
Me too. In the first flashback, I thought: "that's Talia story", but I was so involved by the movie and everything was happening, that I forgot. It was very plausible if it was Bane's story. But I agree the twist is the weakest from every Nolan movie, but I think it is because the character was very underdeveloped.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:49 AM   #58
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Truth is, even if we knew the twist was potentially coming it was Nolan's job to ensure it also meant something for us as fans. The audience may have gasped but we didn't, we didn't get the same experience, but we needed something out of it as well. We may have known Harvey Dent was going to be Two-Face but we were made to care about the character, and when he was scarred it sucked, when he died it was tragic, it all meant something even though his fate was sealed. We have no reason to care for Talia and hope she didn't turn against Bruce in this film, they have no relationship, they have no connection, she is little more than a one night stand. Was the 'twist' bad? Yes, because there wasn't something in it for everybody. Everyone who says the general audience loved it ask yourself this, did you really get anything out of it? From what I've read people are just happy Talia is in the film, why is beyond me.
Exactly

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:55 AM   #59
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

It was a "twist" with almost no investment put into it. Didn't leave an impression at all.

Why should I care when Batman, Selina & Gordon themselves looked disinterested and bored when Talia gives her dying monologue.

That scene will forever remind me of the "Almost Got Im" scene with Croc and the rest of rogues gallery looking at him in that exact same way.

That's the best aspect of that entire scene.

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Old 08-04-2012, 09:48 AM   #60
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Truth is, even if we knew the twist was potentially coming it was Nolan's job to ensure it also meant something for us as fans. The audience may have gasped but we didn't, we didn't get the same experience, but we needed something out of it as well. We may have known Harvey Dent was going to be Two-Face but we were made to care about the character, and when he was scarred it sucked, when he died it was tragic, it all meant something even though his fate was sealed. We have no reason to care for Talia and hope she didn't turn against Bruce in this film, they have no relationship, they have no connection, she is little more than a one night stand. Was the 'twist' bad? Yes, because there wasn't something in it for everybody. Everyone who says the general audience loved it ask yourself this, did you really get anything out of it? From what I've read people are just happy Talia is in the film, why is beyond me.
I actually didn't want Miranda to turn. It kind of shocked me, even though deep down I knew it was coming because I simply wanted her to stay Miranda Tate.

That said, I don't think even Nolan thought he was going to fool the fans on this one. Though, I also thought the twist of her having Bane's backstory was a nice surprise, and that part I enjoyed. There was really no way I could have guessed that because I just associated the chant so strongly with Bane, and wanted that backstory to be his (which is why so many are upset about it, alas). But I think it's one of those deals where all the clues are there and if you're paying attention you should see the twist coming. It's designed for multiple viewings where you can simply view her as Talia the whole way through. Same as the Ra's twist in Begins.

I'm not saying it was a great twist, it wasn't (neither was the Ra's twist BTW, it was pretty obvious). I just don't think it was bad.

And yes, I'm happy Talia is in the film because it lends a full scope to the whole trilogy, and it always bugged me that we had Ra's but no Talia. The fact that he mentioned his "great love" in Begins always felt like a nod to the existence of Talia. There's even mention of her on Ra's character bio on the Begins DVD, so to me she was always "in canon", especially knowing the input Nolan has on his DVD releases. I'm fine with her being purely evil and consumed with revenge on Bruce in this story, because it's new territory. In the comics, Ra's never really dies so things can never escalate to this point between Bruce and Talia.

I'll admit, her death scene was pretty weak, but I'm still am a supporter of her inclusion in the story.

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Old 08-04-2012, 10:06 AM   #61
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Me too. In the first flashback, I thought: "that's Talia story", but I was so involved by the movie and everything was happening, that I forgot. It was very plausible if it was Bane's story. But I agree the twist is the weakest from every Nolan movie, but I think it is because the character was very underdeveloped.

I think is due to the fact we where expecting a scene with Ra's and Talia too. The fact that Bane would have been the Talia's brother didn't bother me at all.

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #62
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I saw the movie with two different people who aren't fans, and they were surprised by Talia's betrayal and reveal. I think that this film has shown me more than many others that spoiling oneself silly and reading every bit of information available before seeing it is detrimental to the experience of watching the movie for the first time.

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:38 AM   #63
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I saw the movie with two different people who aren't fans, and they were surprised by Talia's betrayal and reveal. I think that this film has shown me more than many others that spoiling oneself silly and reading every bit of information available before seeing it is detrimental to the experience of watching the movie for the first time.
Exactly. I thought i should have been stay away from spoilers. Everyone i spoke talk about the twist & ending first. At least i didn't know the ending but Talia spoilers took a lot from the movie in first experience.

I'm glad i wasn't spoiled in 6th Sense or Fight Club. That would be huge.

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Old 08-04-2012, 11:44 AM   #64
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I saw the movie with two different people who aren't fans, and they were surprised by Talia's betrayal and reveal. I think that this film has shown me more than many others that spoiling oneself silly and reading every bit of information available before seeing it is detrimental to the experience of watching the movie for the first time.
This pretty much sums it up

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I actually didn't want Miranda to turn. It kind of shocked me, even though deep down I knew it was coming because I simply wanted her to stay Miranda Tate.

That said, I don't think even Nolan thought he was going to fool the fans on this one. Though, I also thought the twist of her having Bane's backstory was a nice surprise, and that part I enjoyed. There was really no way I could have guessed that because I just associated the chant so strongly with Bane, and wanted that backstory to be his (which is why so many are upset about it, alas). But I think it's one of those deals where all the clues are there and if you're paying attention you should see the twist coming. It's designed for multiple viewings where you can simply view her as Talia the whole way through. Same as the Ra's twist in Begins.

I'm not saying it was a great twist, it wasn't (neither was the Ra's twist BTW, it was pretty obvious). I just don't think it was bad.

And yes, I'm happy Talia is in the film because it lends a full scope to the whole trilogy, and it always bugged me that we had Ra's but no Talia. The fact that he mentioned his "great love" in Begins always felt like a nod to the existence of Talia. There's even mention of her on Ra's character bio on the Begins DVD, so to me she was always "in canon", especially knowing the input Nolan has on his DVD releases. I'm fine with her being purely evil and consumed with revenge on Bruce in this story, because it's new territory. In the comics, Ra's never really dies so things can never escalate to this point between Bruce and Talia.

I'll admit, her death scene was pretty weak, but I'm still am a supporter of her inclusion in the story.
I'm curious to know what made it so 'shocking' given she has virtually no relationship with Bruce, or anyone else in the film for that matter, and has to weak part to play in the story. In fact I'm struggling to see how any fan can be satisfied with that character. They added Talia, so what? She was wasted. Watching it multiple times doesn't make the character any less wasted.

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:18 PM   #66
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Are people using that dumb "Oh, you guys just didnt like it cause you knew about it already, the general audience liked it so There" argument?

Some people continue to miss the point. What a silly strawman argument.

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:03 PM   #67
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Are people using that dumb ''Oh, you guys just didnt like it cause you knew about it already, the general audience liked it so There'' argument?

Some people continue to miss the point. What a silly strawman argument.
And as people like us keep pointing out we knew Harvey Dent's fate, we were just made to care about it.

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:17 PM   #68
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^ It's like they're not actually paying attention to what detractors say about the twist. They pull some lame argument out of their backside about something that isnt relevant to the complaints.

I've yet to see any detractor in this thread say that they were disappointed because they knew the twist already.

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:24 PM   #69
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^ It's like they're not actually paying attention to what detractors say about the twist. They pull some lame argument out of their backside about something that isnt relevant to the complaints.

I've yet to see any detractor in this thread say that they were disappointed because they knew the twist already.
Really though, you can't say how you'd feel if you had no clue the twist was coming, because you did. I'm not saying you'd love it, but chances are since a lot of the gen audience were sufficiently surprised/shocked by it, there is a chance it couldve affected you differently. To not acknowledge this is just as ignorant as the other way you are arguing against.

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Old 08-04-2012, 07:58 PM   #70
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^ Case in point

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:03 PM   #71
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Yeah, not really. All your doing is pretending like you'd have hated it no matter what, when in fact there's really no way to tell since you knew for over a year ahead of time. I do t even think the twist was great, but I at least acknowledge that me knowing about it way ahead of time affected my perception of it, especially seeing as in every show I went to there was genuine shock from the audience about it.And you say that no one in this thread has said that knowing ahead of time took anything away from the twist, when in fact on this very page someone admits that knowing ahead of time ruined it for them.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:05 PM   #72
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Characterization was weak not the twist, some of you guys are overkilling it. Like it was predictable,boring or unnecessary etc.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:12 PM   #73
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Yeah, not really. All your doing is pretending like you'd have hated it no matter what, when in fact there's really no way to tell since you knew for over a year ahead of time. I do t even think the twist was great, but I at least acknowledge that me knowing about it way ahead of time affected my perception of it, especially seeing as in every show I went to there was genuine shock from the audience about it.And you say that no one in this thread has said that knowing ahead of time took anything away from the twist, when in fact on this very page someone admits that knowing ahead of time ruined it for them.
True. I was felt nothing in that scene because I already knew Miranda is Talia, she is gonna stab him in that scene after Bane was defeated. I knew kid was Miranda as well. But now who ever i ask movie, one of the first thing they say twist & ending. Hell, even before Bane & Batman fights.

And of course it will ruin it.. Would you feel same excitement if you already know twists in Usual Suspects, Fight Club, Sixth Sense etc.? NO. Fortunatelly this wasn't that big twist or we would be doomed.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:20 PM   #74
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Are people using that dumb "Oh, you guys just didnt like it cause you knew about it already, the general audience liked it so There" argument?

Some people continue to miss the point. What a silly strawman argument.
Not really. It means that the movie worked its magic on many of those who didn't spoil themselves rotten on every spy pic and leaked plot point that have been on the internet for a year. A movie, like a novel, is supposed to be experienced fresh. No one here can honestly say they know how they would have reacted to Miranda's turn if they would have avoided spoilers.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:23 PM   #75
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Yeah, not really.
Yeah...really.

So, I think I have it: Somehow, people complaing about the lack of substance leading up to and after the twist is because we knew about the twist beforehand. Which makes no sense, as it really isnt a judgment on the twist itself.

Its just funny that there are critics, who probably didnt know the twist beforehand, who still dissed Marion's role/performance after their first viewing. I wonder what the explanation for their "tainted" view is.

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