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Old 08-05-2012, 03:33 PM   #126
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

So long as no one is arguing light blue or Captain America blue would work for a Batman film I can get behind midnight blue. Though the question remains whether or not mist people would accept that in promo images. Not even Schumacher dared go there even as he made everything else a cluster****.

On the flipside, why not go black and use lighting tricks to give it the appearance of various shades of blue. I loved that they did that in Arkham City.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:57 PM   #127
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Schumacher didn't use blue because he was making tonally anarchic movies that had only superficial design elements with with which to ally themselves with the earlier films in the franchise he was supposed to be continuing. In other words, rigid black muscle suits are about the only thing that BR has in common with B89.

That's what makes Nolan's repetition of the same design bizarre in his reboot. He should tried something different, to pronounce the novelty as clearly as possible.

A grey and blue fabric costume would be as different as possible from yet more black rubber.

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Old 08-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #128
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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On the flipside, why not go black and use lighting tricks to give it the appearance of various shades of blue.
That's pretty much the compromise I suggested and I would be fine with this if a midnight blue could not be used.

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That whole "The Blue was supposed to be Black" is a weak attempt at trying to undermine the use of blue, IMO.

Batman is recognized as wearing blue on his suit. Whether that happened by accident or not does not change the fact that Batman has worn blue instead of black during his 70+ history. Hell, he's probably worn blue MORE than he's worn black, so stop whining about it.
Thank you sir. For those that want all dark, all grim, all "realism", all the time well you guys got your movie. Actually you got 3 of them in row in a nice tightly packed trilogy. Congrats.

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Indeed. In fact, the costume argument ended over ten years ago when the first pictures of the Spider-Man costume surfaced--sadly, many fans are simply a decade behind the curve. Also, this year, any remaining vestiges of "It won't work on film" were obliterated by The Avengers.
Personally I'd have to call and yes but no on that one. If Thor had ever been allowed to wear his helmet (and had something closer to his classic look than the JMS one) and if Cap's costume had been less Ultimatey, and if Hawkeye had been allowed to look like Hawkeye instead of just some dude with a bow, I might agree with you more fully. Truthfully, I think the costume argument should have ended in 1978 with Christopher Reeve as Superman.



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Time for a movie in the spirit of BTAS. Also, Robin.
I would LOVE to have a movie in that spirit. I really would like to see a Batman movie that played the character straight, and didn't play it for comedy or camp but also did not aggressively apologize or compensate for his being a colorful comicbook superhero. But rather to embrace that.

As for Robin I would really like to see Robin as a kid or young teenager, and not a 20-30 something dude. Preferably, I would like them to use the very first Tim Drake costume because I think Neal Adams did such a good job of fixing problems with Robins classic costume while at the same time making very sure to keep Robin looking like Robin. I liked the way Tom Grummett drew Tim himself better (he looked more like a kid) but it's Neal that designed that suit.


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Old 08-05-2012, 07:45 PM   #129
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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Originally Posted by regwec View Post
Bob Kane didn't design Batman's costume, and the design that he did reproduce quickly became defunct. There comes a point in the artistic history of Batman where cops are shown wearing black uniforms highlighted with blue, and Batman is shown wearing a blue uniform highlighted with black. At that point, Batman is clearly supposed to be wearing blue. I submit that whatever "metaphorical" aspects that might have been attached to Batman's design in its early history were lost when his costume was redesigned entirely, and he gained the yellow oval on his chest.
Whatever one thinks of Bob Kane—and I can all but guarantee (having long been an advocate of Bill Finger’s preeminent role in defining the Batman archetype) that few think less of Kane than I do—Kane was nonetheless THE de facto voice of early Batman canon. And whether or not Bob Kane actually invented that Batman archetype (he didn’t) is irrelevant here; what is relevant is the fact that Bob Kane acknowledged the black and gray archetype as definitive.

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I don't know what "evidentially supported" means, but if you mean "supported by evidence", then you need more evidence than the words of someone who wasn't responsible for Batman's design, and you need to address the fact that the design was constantly revised and changed after the brief period in which Bob Kane had any involvement with the publication of Batman comics.
Batman & Me ~ Bob Kane (1989)
the wings, trunks, and mask were black.

Batman: The Complete History ~ Les Daniel (1999)
The cowl and cloak remained black, but since comics conventions demand that black objects be highlighted in blue, Batman’s uniform in effect became blue and gray.

Batman in the Forties ~ intro Bill Schell (2004)
In Batman’s debut story, the key elements in his mythos were established; his eerie [black and gray] costume… Batman’s debut in Detective #27 has the estimable value of revealing Bat-Man (as he was called at first) exactly as envisioned by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. So the result is… undiluted by editorial interference or the suggestion of others. This is Batman straight from the heads of his creators. We must also recognize that it was Bob Kane’s art that set the tone for all who would follow, and that nearly all of the work done on the strip by Kane – a considerable amount – appeared throughout the 1940s. That’s when 99% of Kane’s personal contribution to the Batman was made, in the days when various facets of the legend were set.

Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight (2005) ~ Scott Beatty



There he is, the ‘blue’ Batman… the ‘blue’ Batman that is taken by some as proof of the argument that Batman is literally supposed to be wearing blue… and on the cover of the ‘Ultimate Guide’ no less. And yet there is no greater argument for “blue being symbolic of black” than the text within that same ‘Ultimate Guide’:

BATMAN’S LOOK: To strike terror, he would become as the bat, sketching out a symbolic costume which would have him clad from head to toe in stealthy black and gray against the Gotham night.

And finally…

Bob Ringwood (2007)
I had decided from the beginning that this ‘Batman’ was not going to be in blue knickers,” said costume designer Bob Ringwood. “I hated those. Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of ‘Batman’ as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In his mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept.

Reinventing the Batsuit for the Modern Era

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Old 08-05-2012, 07:57 PM   #130
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

While I don't agree with Bob Ringwood's view of the blue, I do appreciate that he kept the shape of the mask, kept the batsymbol, and went for the sculpted muscles. It made the 89 suit look and feel somehow right even though the all black and the armor concept were such a departure from the comics. Keaton to his credit while a totally un-ideal Bruce Wayne, did well in-suit as Batman. I like Bale's Bruce Wayne, but I like Keaton's Batman better. ..but Kevin Conroy smokes them both without even ever being in front of the camera.

Head turn or not, 89 is still the one I like best out of all the various armorized takes the movies have handed us.

I'll give some credit to the recent videogame stuff at least for trying to find a middle ground between the comics costume and the armor idea. The design is just a little too Simon Bisley for my taste.


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Old 08-05-2012, 07:58 PM   #131
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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I'd say it's way more of a fact that the actual dominant color of the inking sometimes is blue, it's hard to deny that, if you're not color-blind.
I deny it because I'm not blind to the written record and because I see the metaphor for what it is.

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Old 08-05-2012, 09:00 PM   #132
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Why Batman wore blue and gray originally is a matter of record, but also kind of irrelevant in terms of designing the suit for film. The fact is that it has been a color scheme he has worn for a long time. That said, I just don't think it is an appropriate for live action.

I don't even think that an outright black and gray would look very good, regardless of how well its designed. Batman shouldn't neccessarily be making a conscious effort to look "color coordinated" when he fights crime.

Heck, I don't even like the idea of a yellow/gold belt anymore. It just seems silly for this stealthy character to have a gold belt on an all black suit because he's too lazy to spraypaint it, too.

The best approach, I think is to use all black, or dark grays and blacks, and use lighting to give the appearance of the black and gray contrast, and various shades of color, including blue. There were more than a few times in BATMAN & ROBIN when Batman looked to be wearing blue.

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:18 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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Indeed. In fact, the costume argument ended over ten years ago when the first pictures of the Spider-Man costume surfaced--sadly, many fans are simply a decade behind the curve. Also, this year, any remaining vestiges of "It won't work on film" were obliterated by The Avengers.

Time for a movie in the spirit of BTAS. Also, Robin.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:46 AM   #134
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

On a side note to the costume debate it was actually bill finger not bob kane who came up with batman's look. As mentioned previously kane actually wanted batman in a bright red costume it was finger who came up with the darker black look.

It is also criminal how bill finger who had as much if not more influence in creating batman than bob kane is almost never recognized.


From bob kane's book:


Quote:
One day I called Bill (Finger) and said, "I have a new character called the Bat-Man and I've made some crude, elementary sketches I'd like you to look at." He came over and I showed him the drawings. At the time, I only had a small domino mask, like the one Robin later wore, on Batman's face. Bill said, "Why not make him look more like a bat and put a hood on him, and take the eyeballs out and just put slits for eyes to make him look more mysterious?" At this point, the Bat-Man wore a red union suit; the wings, trunks, and mask were black. I thought that red and black would be a good combination. Bill said that the costume was too bright: "Color it dark gray to make it look more ominous."

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Old 08-06-2012, 01:00 AM   #135
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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On a side note to the costume debate it was actually bill finger not bob kane who came up with batman's look. As mentioned previously kane actually wanted batman in a bright red costume it was finger who came up with the darker black look.

It is also criminal how bill finger who had as much if not more influence in creating batman than bob kane is almost never recognized.


From bob kane's book:
To expand on that thought, here's what it WOULD have looked like if Bob Kane had fully created the Bat-Man.

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Old 08-06-2012, 01:02 AM   #136
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Or if you want a more modern look...


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Old 08-06-2012, 03:41 AM   #137
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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Whatever one thinks of Bob Kane—and I can all but guarantee (having long been an advocate of Bill Finger’s preeminent role in defining the Batman archetype) that few think less of Kane than I do—Kane was nonetheless THE de facto voice of early Batman canon. And whether or not Bob Kane actually invented that Batman archetype (he didn’t) is irrelevant here; what is relevant is the fact that Bob Kane acknowledged the black and gray archetype as definitive.

Batman & Me ~ Bob Kane (1989)
the wings, trunks, and mask were black.

Batman: The Complete History ~ Les Daniel (1999)
The cowl and cloak remained black, but since comics conventions demand that black objects be highlighted in blue, Batman’s uniform in effect became blue and gray.

Batman in the Forties ~ intro Bill Schell (2004)
In Batman’s debut story, the key elements in his mythos were established; his eerie [black and gray] costume… Batman’s debut in Detective #27 has the estimable value of revealing Bat-Man (as he was called at first) exactly as envisioned by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. So the result is… undiluted by editorial interference or the suggestion of others. This is Batman straight from the heads of his creators. We must also recognize that it was Bob Kane’s art that set the tone for all who would follow, and that nearly all of the work done on the strip by Kane – a considerable amount – appeared throughout the 1940s. That’s when 99% of Kane’s personal contribution to the Batman was made, in the days when various facets of the legend were set.

Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight (2005) ~ Scott Beatty



There he is, the ‘blue’ Batman… the ‘blue’ Batman that is taken by some as proof of the argument that Batman is literally supposed to be wearing blue… and on the cover of the ‘Ultimate Guide’ no less. And yet there is no greater argument for “blue being symbolic of black” than the text within that same ‘Ultimate Guide’:

BATMAN’S LOOK: To strike terror, he would become as the bat, sketching out a symbolic costume which would have him clad from head to toe in stealthy black and gray against the Gotham night.

And finally…

Bob Ringwood (2007)
I had decided from the beginning that this ‘Batman’ was not going to be in blue knickers,” said costume designer Bob Ringwood. “I hated those. Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of ‘Batman’ as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In his mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept.

Reinventing the Batsuit for the Modern Era
I think that all of those comments refer back to Bob Kane's original opinion. Ringwood says as much.

We have already established that Bob Kane thought Batman wore black, and now we have established that other people realised that Bob Kane thought Batman wore black.

I don't really care what Bob Kane's opinion was, unless we are talking about a direct, period adaptation of one of comics he illustrated.

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Old 08-06-2012, 03:57 AM   #138
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

I'm a black and grey man myself. Blue's alright as well. It's become such an iconic colour to associate with him as well.

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Old 08-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #139
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Well we're never going to see a direct adaptation of any work, so why should he wear blue?

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Old 08-06-2012, 07:27 AM   #140
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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I think that all of those comments refer back to Bob Kane's original opinion. Ringwood says as much.

We have already established that Bob Kane thought Batman wore black, and now we have established that other people realised that Bob Kane thought Batman wore black.

I don't really care what Bob Kane's opinion was, unless we are talking about a direct, period adaptation of one of comics he illustrated.
The evidence speaks for itself, and it says the same thing from citing to citing: that the creators of the character and DC - in official and cotemporary publications - define that Batman wears black.

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Old 08-06-2012, 07:47 AM   #141
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

The evidence is drawn from a selection of sources that refer back to the evidence we started with- Bob Kane telling us that he thought Bill Finger's design was meant to be black and grey.

I don't find it compelling, not least because Bob Kane's opinions in the 1940s are irrelevant today. Some more modern artists might accept your "extended metaphor", but it clearly breaks down where you have story in which Batman wears black and grey, with a flashback to a former time where he was wearing blue and grey.

I don't doubt that Batman wears black and grey at times, and did so in his earliest appearances. But designs evolve, and I won't be convinced that in this picture, for instance...



...Batman is supposed to be wearing black, while Alfred is wearing- what?

There is an inconsistency underneath all of this, certainly, but I don't find that problematic. Batman used to wear black and grey, now sometimes wears blue. If I had to impose a logical sequence on the matter, then I would submit that the "new look" costume of 1964 onwards introduced the yellow oval and made blue mean blue.

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Old 08-06-2012, 08:52 AM   #142
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

I want to see how the B:TAS suit would look on film.


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Old 08-06-2012, 11:32 AM   #143
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

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...Batman is supposed to be wearing black, while Alfred is wearing- what?

There is an inconsistency underneath all of this, certainly, but I don't find that problematic. Batman used to wear black and grey, now sometimes wears blue. If I had to impose a logical sequence on the matter, then I would submit that the "new look" costume of 1964 onwards introduced the yellow oval and made blue mean blue.
No...the earlier Batman artists had issues with black, and so used blue. Its apparent that from about his second year onward, artists started considering him blue and gray. He was very much intended to be wearing blue in the 70's, and long before that as well.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:10 PM   #144
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Bob Kane thought Batman wore black.

Ok. He also wears Blue, too.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:21 PM   #145
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Bobs quote originated in 1989, coincidentally when the movie presented hijm as black for the first time. I think it was just a retconning statement to support the movie

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:23 PM   #146
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Pfft, theres no such thing as blue bats. He was never supposed to wear blue.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:23 PM   #147
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I don't think it really matters either way. I prefer black, but in every single way that actually matters, Batman has been blue for decades. I mean, if Spider-Man was coloured yellow and somebody said "Well, the yellow is symbolic of red," would that matter? Visually, he would still be yellow. Visually, Batman has been blue for a significant portion of his history. It doesn't matter if it's supposed to be black because it is blue.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:30 PM   #148
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It doesn't matter if it's supposed to be black because it is blue.
There. I think you have cut the Gordian knot.

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Old 08-06-2012, 12:41 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Batsuit Master Thread - Part 2

Spider-Man was supposed to wear black/red in the beginning:



I've always loved it when Jim Aparo drew Batman in the late 80s and they made the upper part blue and the lower shades of his cape black-ish.

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Old 08-06-2012, 01:27 PM   #150
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I don't think it really matters either way. I prefer black, but in every single way that actually matters, Batman has been blue for decades. I mean, if Spider-Man was coloured yellow and somebody said "Well, the yellow is symbolic of red," would that matter? Visually, he would still be yellow. Visually, Batman has been blue for a significant portion of his history. It doesn't matter if it's supposed to be black because it is blue.
The comparison here is invalid—no reasonable person would argue a symbolic relationship between yellow and red. However the idea that “blue is symbolic of black” is reasonable in terms of both comic convention and textual evidence. I happen to agree with the idea that “blue is symbolic of black” but I did not—nor do I—deny that Batman is often colored blue. That being said, that Batman is “meant” to appear clad in black is undeniable to anyone who chooses to consider the matter objectively. And lest we forget, the argument here is not black vs. blue, or Kane's 'Batman' vs. Finger's or Finger’s vs. Adam’s, etc., etc., etc. The argument is whether or not this statement—Blue was supposed to be Black is a weak attempt at trying to undermine the use of blue—is valid statement. It is not. That “blue is symbolic of black” is a perfectly legitimate and reasonable response to the question.

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