The Batsuit Thread

[regwec]

Originally Posted by BatScot

That being said, that Batman is “meant” to appear clad in black undeniable to anyone who chooses to consider the matter objectively.

No, it isn't. You are in fact being extremely subjective in forming your opinion on the narrowest range of "evidence". You have a quote from Bob Kane, in which he says that he considered Batman to be wearing black in his early appearances, and you have found other sources who allude to his comment and consider the matter no further. Against that, you have to balance at least sixty years of artistic development where blue has quite clearly been used to represent...blue. Your "extended metaphor" doesn't stand up to scrutiny when a blue-clad Batman is stood next to a character wearing black; nor when a black-clad Batman remembers his past, when he wore blue.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by BatScot

The comparison here is invalid—no reasonable person would argue a symbolic relationship between yellow and red. However the idea that “blue is symbolic of black” is reasonable in terms of both comic convention and textual evidence.

Sure, but it the absurdity of the comparison isn't really important. Insert a less absurd substitute for red and yellow if it makes a difference to you; the point will remain the same. Blue is blue regardless of what I'm someone, somewhere may or may not have expected me to imagine it as.

Maybe it would drive clarity if I had your answer to this question: is the blue symbolic of black in the image below?

[Majik1387]

I'm more concerned as to why is Nightwing rocking teal.
But to answer your question, yes, the blue is symbolic of black.

[regwec]

Is all of the blue symbolic of black? And what does the black "symbolise"?

[theShape]

The blue is symbolic of purple, and white is symbolic of brown. Therefore, we can deduce that Bruce Wayne is meant to be seen as an African American.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by Majik1387

I'm more concerned as to why is Nightwing rocking teal.
But to answer your question, yes, the blue is symbolic of black.

I see. So, after colouring Nightwing's black uniform black, the colourist then elected to colour Batman's black uniform blue with the intention that the blue was to be secretly black?

[regwec]

Are Bruce Wayne's irises supposed to be symbolically black?

[DaveMoral]

I don't think the colorist in that image honestly wants to convey a blue wearing Batman, especially when in the years prior to that story the blue had been toned darker and darker, said to be black, but never went fully black. Blue has become a genre convention for Batman, even when it's acknowledged that the actuality is that it's black. You have Denny O'Neil and ever other comic writer-turned-novelist writing the cape and cowl black in their adaptations of major storylines like Knightfall and No Man's Land... despite the cape and cowl being blue(light blue in Knightfall, dark/midnight blue in No Man's Land) in the comics.

Do you honestly believe Batman is supposed to be running around in light blue cape and cowl? To scare criminals?

[regwec]

Would "running around" in the same outfit coloured black be markedly more effective?

[DaveMoral]

Originally Posted by EPICrypto

Or if you want a more modern look...

Hey, look at that! Red Robin!

[DaveMoral]

I think John Byrne is clearly trying to evoke a black-sporting Batman in almost everything he's done.

Arguably in almost every comic that Batman wears a primarily blue cape and cowl the face of the cowl is always black. So are we to believe that the cowl is literally blue except for this round area directly on the face of the cowl, which is black with blue eyebrows? Or is it conveniently shadowed all the time, even in broad daylight? Or is it supposed to be evocative of black?

[BatScot]

Originally Posted by Saint

Maybe it would drive clarity if I had your answer to this question: is the blue symbolic of black in the image below?

That I 'see' blue in Batman's costume and black in Nightwing's does not preclude me from accepting the idea of symbolic black in one case but not the other nor does it require that I apply the same metaphor to Nightwing's blue logo.

[BatScot]

Originally Posted by regwec

No, it isn't. You are in fact being extremely subjective in forming your opinion on the narrowest range of "evidence". You have a quote from Bob Kane, in which he says that he considered Batman to be wearing black in his early appearances, and you have found other sources who allude to his comment and consider the matter no further. Against that, you have to balance at least sixty years of artistic development where blue has quite clearly been used to represent...blue. Your "extended metaphor" doesn't stand up to scrutiny when a blue-clad Batman is stood next to a character wearing black; nor when a black-clad Batman remembers his past, when he wore blue.

It's not my extended metaphor, its simply the one that appears time and time again in the historical written record... not my record mind you, nor soley Bob Kane's et.al., nor is it my subjective opinion or one that I ever claimed to have initiated; its DC's record, its DC's opinion. Its an opinion that is both documented and cited.... and one that I happen to agree with.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by BatScot

That I 'see' blue in Batman's costume and black in Nightwing's does not preclude me from accepting the idea of symbolic black in one case but not the other nor does it require that I apply the same metaphor to Nightwing's blue logo.

Good, that's what I wanted to know. If blue can at least sometimes be be blue and not secret black, and there exists visual examples of instances where blue and black exist on the same page that goes back decades (indicating the blue is not secret black in those examples), then we can acknowledge that Batman being blue and not secretly black represents a significant portion of the character's visual history.

This should inform whether or not we find statements like "The black is symbolic of blue" to be meaningful in any modern discussion of the character. I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong about which interpretation of Batman they find more valuable than the other, but personally, I find Kane's opinion on the matter to be about as relevant to modern Batman as early stories where Batman shot people to death. We're long past that state of affairs, in both cases.

[The Guard]

I think John Byrne is clearly trying to evoke a black-sporting Batman in almost everything he's done.

Arguably in almost every comic that Batman wears a primarily blue cape and cowl the face of the cowl is always black. So are we to believe that the cowl is literally blue except for this round area directly on the face of the cowl, which is black with blue eyebrows? Or is it conveniently shadowed all the time, even in broad daylight? Or is it supposed to be evocative of black?

You're to believe that the cowl is shadowed.

He's clearly wearing blue, as evidenced by the unshadowed gloves. Most comic book artists have drawn Batman that way when he's depicted as wearing blue, dating back to the early 40's, with that kind of shiny/shadowy look. The visual is obviously an homage to his first appearance, and his "classic" appearance from the Golden Age. He's even drawn with that "shadowed" cowl often in the most modern comics, where he's clearly meant to be wearing black and gray.

[Bruce Malone]

What does any of this debate have to do with a film suit though? Comic artists have it both ways when drawing batman. If he's shaded blue the one's who want to believe he's wearing blue can as can those who feel he's actually wearing black but with the animator shading it blue for impact.

On film there would be no leeway if batman is wearing a blue suit on film he is damn well wearing blue.

As well in all my readings of batman i have never heard the suit referred to by any one as blue or batman being referred to anything similar to the "big blue boyscout" or blue anything as superman is who is unquestionably wearing blue is.

I have however read him described as being draped in black in both dialogue and descriptions by artists/creators.



Also Alex Ross is famous for depicting the DC characters in their classic/traditional outfits his batman is always draped in black.

[BatScot]

Originally Posted by Saint

Good, that's what I wanted to know. If blue can at least sometimes be blue and not secret black, and there exists visual examples of instances where blue and black exist on the same page that goes back decades (indicating the blue is not secret black in those examples), then we can acknowledge that Batman being blue and not secretly black represents a significant portion of the character's visual history.

As I said above, my interest is not in the relative merits of the ‘new look’ Batman but in the refutation of a particular point regarding the validity of the ‘symbolic black’ premise.

Originally Posted by Saint

This should inform whether or not we find statements like "The black is symbolic of blue" to be meaningful in any modern discussion of the character. I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong about which interpretation of Batman they find more valuable than the other, but personally, I find Kane's opinion on the matter to be about as relevant to modern Batman as early stories where Batman shot people to death. We're long past that state of affairs, in both cases.

Are you implying that the idea of “black being symbolic of blue” is not meaningful in any “modern” discussion of the character? Which raises another question: Are you saying that the iconic archetype that was for all intents and purposes defined by Finger and Kane* in Detective #27 is irrelevant—and here I refer not only to the preeminent nature of black but the archetype in whole? Or are you simply picking out one particular aspect of that archetype… a singular aspect that perhaps more than any other has literally defined the colorization of Batman in the most widespread example of the character's look in modern discussion, i.e., the cinematic representation.

And as for Kane’s “opinion” I find it ironic that “Kane’s opinion” is summarily dismissed on the one hand while on the other Bob Kane is presented as if Kane and Kane alone is the only person who has ever acknowledged the fact that at times Batman is meant to appear clad in black even when the coloring on the page is blue.

* Kane's swipes in that and future editions not withstanding.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by BatScot

Are you implying that the idea of “black being symbolic of blue” is not meaningful in any “modern” discussion of the character?

I'm not implying it, I'm stating it outright. The idea of blue being secret black is presently irrelevant. It is obsolete, because now when Batman is meant to be black, he is rendered as such, and when he is meant to be blue, he is rendered as such.

Also, as I argued previously, it never really mattered, even when it was meant to be secret black. Once the visual of the costume became primarily blue, it didn't really matter if it was supposed to represent black because it was blue. If it was intended, at that point, to represent anything other than blue, it was failing miserably.

Which raises another question: Are you saying that the iconic archetype that was for all intents and purposes defined by Finger and Kane* in Detective #27 is irrelevant—and here I refer not only to the preeminent nature of black but the archetype in whole?

Le sigh, BatScot--you should know that's not my argument.

[BatScot]

Originally Posted by Saint

I'm not implying it, I'm stating it outright. The idea of blue being secret black is presently irrelevant. It is obsolete, because now when Batman is meant to be black, he is rendered as such, and when he is meant to be blue, he is rendered as such.

Hmm...



... that’s the cover and last page of the Jan ‘11 issue, clearly something that is relevant to the “modern discussion”. Perhaps it is true that when Batman is meant to be black, he is rendered as such, and when he is meant to be blue, he is rendered as such... it’s just not necessary anymore that he be rendered consistently within the same comic.

Nice jacket the Penguin is wearing, by the way.

Originally Posted by Saint

Le sigh, BatScot--you should know that's not my argument.

I see, so only the parts of "Kane's opinion" that fit the argument are irrelevant.

[The Guard]

Covers don't neccessarily matter.

Batman's obviously meant to be wearing blue there, as in The Penguin. That's no accident. There's been something of a move back toward the Silver Age design/concepts in recent years. He wears black in other comics. It seems to be up to the artist, but there are definitely times he's obviously wearing blue.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by BatScot

Hmm...



... that’s the cover and last page of the Jan ‘11 issue, clearly something that is relevant to the “modern discussion”. Perhaps it is true that when Batman is meant to be black, he is rendered as such, and when he is meant to be blue, he is rendered as such... it’s just not necessary anymore that he be rendered consistently within the same comic.

You mean on the cover, which was coloured by a different individual? The cover is a David Finch painting. The interior is coloured by Alex Sinclair, explaining the inconsistency.

Nice jacket the Penguin is wearing, by the way.

People do wear blue suits, you know.

I'm sure you could find another example of inconsistency, but it wouldn't change much. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule--comics are nothing if not inconsistent--but it doesn't really refute the rule. And if you want to play Art War, for every inconsistency you find I'll just raise you one of these:

I see, so only the parts of "Kane's opinion" that fit the argument are irrelevant.

Uh, yes, actually, that's correct. I'm not sure what the alternative would be. Declaring ideas not pertinent to the discussion irrelevant? Declaring ideas that are still relevant as irrelevant?

[BatScot]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Covers don't neccessarily matter.

Batman's obviously meant to be wearing blue there, as in The Penguin. That's no accident. There's been something of a move back toward the Silver Age design/concepts in recent years. He wears black in other comics. It seems to be up to the artist, but there are definitely times he's obviously wearing blue.

Man, anything that doesn't fit gets dismissed; kinda takes the fun out of things. Anyhoo, covers matter as much as panels, with the exception of foil variants and the like, and on this cover Batman is obviously meant to be wearing black.

So do you think Penguin called Batman to coordinate outfits or is blue just the fashion du jour?

[The Guard]

I don't consider confusing black for blue "fun".

No...I think Penguin wore a blue suit that day...as he occassionally did during the late 70's/early 80's in the comics.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by BatScot

So do you think Penguin called Batman to coordinate outfits or is blue just the fashion du jour?

What colour are the trousers worn by the Penguin's henchmen?

[The Boy Scout]

I can't believe this conversation's gone on this long. Does it really matter?