Discussion: The Second Amendment II

[Mandalore464]

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[Kable24]

Originally Posted by chaseter

An AR-15 is an assault rifle. You can call it an Armalite Rifle all you want...it is an assault rifle designed for military use to...assault.

I figure that's the only way you'll understand.

The military doesn't even use AR15's. The AR platform they use the most are M16 and M4 rifles. They are assault rifles because they can go from single fire to full auto.

AR15's are single fire semi automatic. Semi Automatic meaning that for every one squeeze of the trigger one round will be fired.

See the problem is you all get your information from sites like Wikipedia and just believe whatever anyone including TV and movies and I'm sure even comics tell you.

The AR15 is a civilian version of the M4 and M16 rifles. They are designed to fire only semi automatic. To make those full auto you would need a special FFL license SOT 2 I believe is the special license and then it's a dealer sample and cannot be sold to anyone other than military and government contractors or LE.

Some more info on buying guns since people just think you can buy anything from anywhere.

Take the time to actually experience firing one of these rifles and learning from qualified people instead of reading message boards, you would get an understanding of why we collect and enjoy shooting these rifles.

Anytime I have ever taken anyone out who has never fired an AR, they love it and have a great time. Give it a try.

I'll have more respect for someone who tries it and not like it than someone who spouts off that I shouldn't own any type of rifle.

[Kable24]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Purely out of curiosity, I'd be extremely interested if someone here who owns a concealed carry permit told me exactly what the conditions were to obtain it, and what exactly it entitles them to do with their firearms.

For example, what places are off-limits (if any) to whomever is carrying a gun, even with a permit? If you're only allowed to "conceal-carry", does that mean you're in trouble if you have to actually use the gun, or if someone sees it and it causes a panic? That kind of stuff...

I'm sure there are many different sets of rules depending on the state you live in, but I'm only interested in first-hand experiences, so please just stick to what you actually can or can't do.

I have my conceal carry. I had to go to the county courthouse in Harrisburg, PA fill out I think it was 4 pages of paperwork about me. I had fingerprints and picture taken and I waited two weeks for the background check before I got my license. It's good for 5 years in which I will renew.

http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-fi...oncealed-carry

This is where I go when I have any concerns about my states gun laws.

[Mandalore464]

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[Kable24]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Cool, thanks.

Would you mind if I asked you what motivated you to get this permit?

You don't have to answer of course, I'm just really interested in people and why they do the things they do.

I'm here with an open-mind and I don't mind whether it's because it makes you feel safer or because you feel empowered by it, I'm really interested eitherway, I'm not here to judge.

I got it for personal protection. I live alone and go and do a lot of things by myself so I don't have safety in numbers. For me it doesn't give me a power trip or a sense of empowerment. I just feel that if someone decides to mug me or hurt me, I have some help in hopefully not letting that happen to me or anyone else. I just choose not to be a victim and with 911 and the police it can take at least two to five minutes for them to show up. A lot can happen in that time.
My saying is, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Thankfully, I haven't needed it and I'm not looking forward to the day where I may need it either.

I like that you have an open mind and want to know why instead of mouthing off like most on here who know nothing about it, but think they do.

We learn by asking.

[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by chaseter

An AR-15 is an assault rifle. You can call it an Armalite Rifle all you want...it is an assault rifle designed for military use to...assault.

I dont call it "Armalite rifle" because that is a brand name and would be silly.

Originally Posted by chaseter

Also...AR doesn't mean Awesome Rifle.

Oh, I see, your point with this was that you ACTUALLY thought the AR in AR15 truly stood for "assault rifle." Again, you are misinformed and this has backfired on you.

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Purely out of curiosity, I'd be extremely interested if someone here who owns a concealed carry permit told me exactly what the conditions were to obtain it, and what exactly it entitles them to do with their firearms.

For example, what places are off-limits (if any) to whomever is carrying a gun, even with a permit? If you're only allowed to "conceal-carry", does that mean you're in trouble if you have to actually use the gun, or if someone sees it and it causes a panic? That kind of stuff...

I'm sure there are many different sets of rules depending on the state you live in, but I'm only interested in first-hand experiences, so please just stick to what you actually can or can't do.

This varies from state to state. Here in Georgia, all that is required is a background check and whatever fees you pay in order to get a CCW.

This :
http://www.georgiapacking.org/
is a useful website that tells vaious rules and regulations, although I havent been there in a while and dont think it has been updated in a while. Some restrictions include government buildings, nuclear power facilities, etc.

In South Carolina, a background check and 8 hour safety course are required to get a CCW. Georgia does not have a mandatory safety class, although I think they should and every other state should. That said, I am all for making this a national permit and making whatever regulations federal.

My CCW expired a couple of years ago. It doesnt matter, because I am federal law enforcement and can carry anywhere without it (as long as I have my credentials), there are no restrictions.

Originally Posted by Kable24

The military doesn't even use AR15's. The AR platform they use the most are M16 and M4 rifles. They are assault rifles because they can go from single fire to full auto.

AR15's are single fire semi automatic. Semi Automatic meaning that for every one squeeze of the trigger one round will be fired.

See the problem is you all get your information from sites like Wikipedia and just believe whatever anyone including TV and movies and I'm sure even comics tell you.

The AR15 is a civilian version of the M4 and M16 rifles. They are designed to fire only semi automatic. To make those full auto you would need a special FFL license SOT 2 I believe is the special license and then it's a dealer sample and cannot be sold to anyone other than military and government contractors or LE.

Some more info on buying guns since people just think you can buy anything from anywhere.

Take the time to actually experience firing one of these rifles and learning from qualified people instead of reading message boards, you would get an understanding of why we collect and enjoy shooting these rifles.

Anytime I have ever taken anyone out who has never fired an AR, they love it and have a great time. Give it a try.

I'll have more respect for someone who tries it and not like it than someone who spouts off that I shouldn't own any type of rifle.

^ Agree with all of this.

[Mandalore464]

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[Mandalore464]

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[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Cool, thanks.

Would you mind if I asked you what motivated you to get this permit?

You don't have to answer of course, I'm just really interested in people and why they do the things they do.

I'm here with an open-mind and I don't mind whether it's because it makes you feel safer or because you feel empowered by it, I'm really interested eitherway, I'm not here to judge.

I will answer this as well. Since 1999, I have been in either law enforcement or high level private security. I have seen some really nasty things and have seen the evil that can be done by a person(s). I have also seen where victims could have had an opportunity to protect themselves and their families if they had a firearm and proper training (please note, the training is VITAL. I cant stress that enough).

Most attackers do not expect their victims to fight back or be prepared and when they do fight back, it usually ends the confrontation. Situations like robberies, home invasions, kidnappings and so on are dynamic so anything can happen. That said, I would rather be prepared and armed.

One other reason is that people I have put in prison that have been released walk these streets just like me. So do their families and members of their gang. I have seen plenty of them in Wal-mart, the mall, at restaurants, etc. If they decide to exact some revenge on me for putting them or a family member or fellow gang member away....I need to be prepared and armed.

When I first met the girl that would later become my wife, I told her that if someone walks up to me and I dont introduce her immediately, she needs to walk away like she doesnt know me. My city isnt huge, but its not small either. I estimate that this sort of thing happens a couple of times a year, so again...I feel the need to be prepared and armed.

[Mandalore464]

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[Mandalore464]

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[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

OK.

I agree with you on the training part. I think it's sad that some people are allowed to handle a gun when they have absolutely no experience in the matter, and will always handle it with their finger on the trigger and the safety off. Gun accidents are so unforgiving...

All too often guys and girls (I have witnessed this personally) go out, buy a gun and suddenly think they are invincible. These are the same people I take to the range and they can barely load the firearm, much less shoot it accurately and properly. If something were to happen to this person before they got plenty of good, fundamental and tactical training.....they would be in a heap of trouble.

Also, I am not one to think that guns are the answer to any conflict. If someone walks up and pops me in the nose, I cant pull out a 9mm and shoot him. There are levels to the threat matrix and deadly force must be justified before I will use it.
That is why I recommend to all law abiding citizens to take self defense classes. I have been involved as a student and instructor of martial arts for a few years as well. This gives me options to deal with certain conflicts that do not call for deadly force.

Not sure why I mentioned that except that I dont want anyone to think that I feel guns are the solution to all problems and to stress again that training is vital.

[Mandalore464]

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[Hotwire]

Just saw an interesting video about a bump fire stock for the AR15. Sure does simulate full auto.

[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Would you both say, however, that because concealed-carry permit is available to US citizens and criminals know it, the latter will increase the immediacy of the threat or the violence of the attack when attempting a robbery or assault, in order to prevent the victims from using the gun they may carry on themselves?

Would a criminal take any chance if the victim was to make an unfortunate but involuntary move towards their belt or inside their vest?

Again, not being judgmental here. I just want to know what people who face this situation first-hand think about it.

I would say that every situation is different and there is no way to know what the criminal is thinking. Often they are high on drugs, drunk, nervous, excited or whatever. All of these things can affect their mindset, reactions and so on.
That said, I dont think that most criminals consider the possibility that the person is armed. I also think, based on my training and experience, that most criminals target individuals that they believe are easy to handle. Say, an older lady by herself versus two college aged males that are 6' 200 lbs.

I was explaining some things to a friend the other day about situational awareness and various scenarios. He said, "well what if a guy 15 feet away, that you never saw walk up, has a gun pointed at you and asks for your wallet?" I laughed and said "Ill give him my wallet and try to get a good look at him. A live witness is more valuable than a dead hero."

Essentially, every situation is different. If someone ALREADY has a gun out and pointed at me....theres not much I can do. Reaching for my firearm only invites them to shoot me, which you mentioned. Again, that is why I stress training. To know when to do certain things is a part of training also.

[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Just saw an interesting video about a bump fire stock for the AR15. Sure does simulate full auto.

Ive seen some videos of these as well, typically at gun shows by dealers selling them. I have no personal experience with them.
However, a little bit of research on them has shown me that they make the gun very inaccurate and most shooters feel they are a waste of money.

[Hotwire]

Originally Posted by mrvlknight21

Ive seen some videos of these as well, typically at gun shows by dealers selling them. I have no personal experience with them.
However, a little bit of research on them has shown me that they make the gun very inaccurate and most shooters feel they are a waste of money.

Even still, here's the video I found.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Look like full-auto to you?

[Kable24]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Even still, here's the video I found.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Look like full-auto to you?

Bump firing is letting the recoil do all the work. The stock is basically fitted in loosely and you put all of the pressure on the forward grip and push forward instead of letting your hand that is on the trigger and grip do the work. I've done bump firing just by wrapping my thumb around my belt loop and holding the rifle in a certain way. It's a waste of ammo and not accurate at all.
anytime I've gone to gun shops that have them you can see a layer of dust on the boxes because most people think they are a waste.

It simulates full auto or burst firing, but under the ATF it is perfectly legal because it's not altering the action of the upper or lower receiver.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the ATF banned them. I don't go out to the range to waste 4 hundred rounds of ammo in 5 minutes.

[Kable24]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Would you both say, however, that because concealed-carry permit is available to US citizens and criminals know it, the latter will increase the immediacy of the threat or the violence of the attack when attempting a robbery or assault, in order to prevent the victims from using the gun they may carry on themselves?

Would a criminal take any chance if the victim was to make an unfortunate but involuntary move towards their belt or inside their vest?

Again, not being judgmental here. I just want to know what people who face this situation first-hand think about it.

Not to bring Batman into it, but he was right when he said that criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot. The criminal doesn't want to be shot and them going after someone who might be armed is scary to them.

I can't say what a criminal might or might not do in any situation. Most people would back off when a gun comes out, but if someone is high on PCP, Bath salts or any type of drug that seems to make them more aggressive they might try and go for the gun.

I've read that states that allow conceal carry and open carry have less person on person crime.

Then looks at the states who have very strict gun laws like California, New York and Illinois.

[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Hotwire

Even still, here's the video I found.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Look like full-auto to you?

Yes, it does. As I stated, I have seen some of those demo videos.

Originally Posted by Kable24

.
anytime I've gone to gun shops that have them you can see a layer of dust on the boxes because most people think they are a waste.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the ATF banned them. I don't go out to the range to waste 4 hundred rounds of ammo in 5 minutes.

I agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by Kable24

Not to bring Batman into it, but he was right when he said that criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot. The criminal doesn't want to be shot and them going after someone who might be armed is scary to them.

I can't say what a criminal might or might not do in any situation. Most people would back off when a gun comes out, but if someone is high on PCP, Bath salts or any type of drug that seems to make them more aggressive they might try and go for the gun.

I've read that states that allow conceal carry and open carry have less person on person crime.

Then looks at the states who have very strict gun laws like California, New York and Illinois.

Yes, Kennesaw, Georgia, is another example. They have a law that requires the head of each household to own a firearm (unless they are precluded for some reason).
They have a very low crime rate, less than half of US cities averages (according to wikipedia).

This quote tends to agree with those statistics:
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.-Robert A. Heinlein

[Mandalore464]

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[chaseter]

Originally Posted by Kable24

I figure that's the only way you'll understand.

The military doesn't even use AR15's. The AR platform they use the most are M16 and M4 rifles. They are assault rifles because they can go from single fire to full auto.

AR15's are single fire semi automatic. Semi Automatic meaning that for every one squeeze of the trigger one round will be fired.

See the problem is you all get your information from sites like Wikipedia and just believe whatever anyone including TV and movies and I'm sure even comics tell you.

The AR15 is a civilian version of the M4 and M16 rifles. They are designed to fire only semi automatic. To make those full auto you would need a special FFL license SOT 2 I believe is the special license and then it's a dealer sample and cannot be sold to anyone other than military and government contractors or LE.

Some more info on buying guns since people just think you can buy anything from anywhere.

Take the time to actually experience firing one of these rifles and learning from qualified people instead of reading message boards, you would get an understanding of why we collect and enjoy shooting these rifles.

Anytime I have ever taken anyone out who has never fired an AR, they love it and have a great time. Give it a try.

I'll have more respect for someone who tries it and not like it than someone who spouts off that I shouldn't own any type of rifle.

True or false:

The AR-15 was designed and built for the armed forces.


Just because the army doesn't use it anymore doesn't mean it's ok for civilians to own. No thanks to your offer...I don't get a tingly, warm feeling when I fire guns.

[mrvlknight21]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Before I continue, I'll give a bit of info about myself so as not to be labeled as a gun-hater (or the opposite).

a/ I like guns. I've always had a fascination for them. I even practised shooting for years and won trophies for it.
b/ I don't own any guns. I just don't see the need for it, and I've stopped going to the firing range years ago.
c/ I think Europe is better off with its strict gun laws and fewer guns in circulation. I think the U.S are better off with their own laws and easier access to guns. Different countries, different situations. I think it's too late to ban guns in the U.S., there are far too many guns already in circulation, and therefore the system works better as it is at the moment.
d/ I only ask questions because I want to know what American citizens, who have far more insight into the matter than people from abroad who like to criticize the U.S gun policy, think of the matter.

Now onto my post :

I think all your points are valid, but I wasn't asking whether the fact citizens are allowed to carry guns meant more or less crime. I was only asking whether the crimes that do happen anyway are more violent or not compared to countries where fewer guns are in circulation and where the criminals know they cannot expect any armed resistance from their victims.

I'll take the example of the Police and law enforcement in general. Everyone in the world has seen videos of U.S. cops pulling some car for speeding and approaching it with their hands on their gun, ready to draw at a moment's notice.

That only happens in the U.S as far as I know. If a cop draws their gun in France, they're in trouble. I have a friend who's a police officer, and one of his colleagues has been suspended without pay for months now because he shot someone who was drunk and armed with a B.B gun who looked exactly like the real thing. That officer is now awaiting trial.

Back to our U.S. officer approaching that car with his gun in hand. Isn't that because the cops are wary of someone who might be packing heat sitting behind the wheel? That illustrates my point I think : because guns are everywhere, everybody has this little impulse in their brains going "OK this guy might have a gun". It makes cops more careful. Does it make criminals more violent?



Actually I don't think that it takes a coward to be a criminal. More often than not, desperate people commit crimes, and I don't think desperate people are afraid of anything.

In that case, would it be more dangerous for yourself to get mugged knowing that you're carrying a gun and the criminal might see it as a threat and end your life for fear of losing his own? That was my question.

A law enforcement officer who approaches a car that he has stopped for speeding (and nothing else) should not have his gun drawn. He may have it on the gun (still in the holster) ready to draw, if necessary, as you stated, but not drawn. It may all depend on his training and his agency's policies on the matter.
That said, if there is reasonable suspicion of another crime (if he ran the tag already and the car is reported stolen or if he saw a person in the car reach under the seat, etc etc) then it may be time for him to come out of the holster to approach the car.

As far as the officer in your country that shot someone who pointed a BB gun at him (assuming this was the situation), then he is completely justified. Having him go to trial undermines law enforcement and can cause serious issues later down the road for him or other officers.

And as far as your question, No, I do not think it is more dangerous for me to be armed if a criminal attempts to mug/attack/hurt me or my family.

[Kable24]

False. The military never had rifles designated as AR15's. Theirs were designated M16 because of the select fire feature. The closest rifle to resemble a true AR15 was the Colt M733 rifle or for those that learned all about guns from Call of Duty. The Colt Commando.

There was the CAR15 which Colt tried to differentiate between AR when they bought the Armalite brand.

The AR15 is basically a generic term anymore. Just like the different versions of the AK47 rifle.

comparing the M4, M16, AR15, and Colt Commando is like comparing oranges, tangerines and tangelos. They are similar, but have their differences too.

So by the rationale that because the military used or uses it, I shouldn't then someone needs to take Hummers off the road. Hummers were designed for military use. I know you'll say hummers weren't designed to kill people.

So you're the type who will knock it without even trying? You're that stubborn to try something and maybe understand more instead of being set in your ways. Then there is no more point in responding to anything your posts since you are so blinded and so set in your ways.

I'm not going to argue with you, because no matter what statistics, facts and knowledge I and mrvknight mention you'll throw something else and completely miss the point and that shouldn't be the focus of this thread. This thread should be about education on the 2nd amendment and why the citizens of this country should appreciate and understand what that right means. Follow Mandalore's example.

[chaseter]

http://www.darkgun.com/faq.aspx

fwomp

The correct answer is...true! Thanks for playing. Maybe next time.


Also...can't believe you just compared a Hummer to a military grade assault rifle.

You have the right to bear arms...but like all rights there are restrictions and rightfully so. You have the right to free speech but you can't yell bomb at an NFL game in the stands. Civilians do not need and should not have access to military grade weapons, large magazines, and assault rifles. Limited clip hand guns, rifles, and shot guns are all you need access to. Banning guns is stupid, banning assault weapons is not stupid. If you support civilians owning assault weapons then the victims of Aurora thank you as Holmes was able to purchase his assault weapon legally.