The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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[Marx]

Skynet lurks...

[theLegend]

Originally Posted by Hypestyle

all too bad that Robin wasn't properly incorporated into the Burton films.. if handled properly it could have been interesting...

Or the fact the character sucks, makes no sense ... even less sense with Burton's Gotham / Batman ... and the fact Burton and crew had no interest in him at all.

For the better in my book

[CConn]

Originally Posted by theLegend

Or the fact the character sucks, makes no sense ... even less sense with Burton's Gotham / Batman ... and the fact Burton and crew had no interest in him at all.

For the better in my book

That's wholly inaccurate.

[theLegend]

Originally Posted by CConn

That's wholly inaccurate.

Totally accurate from my perspective.

A neurotic, obsessive, suicidal, crazy man who fights crime at night dressed in the dark visage of a Bat ... and is fractured emotionally, essentially still an 8 year old in essence who never grew up ... seeking a father figure himself

In turn being that disturbed man yet supposedly is being a father figure to a young boy makes ZERO sense. As does the threatning image of a all black Bat fighting crime, with a colorful red and green CHILD makes zero sense as well.

As does the entire concept of introducing a CHILD into being a vigilante. Real heroic endeavour right there, Batman. If anything you should be steering him away from that life. Making something better and more productive out of it. It's Bruce Wayne's curse cause he's crazy. He shouldn't want it for anyone else.

Not to mention in the classic sense, the oddly disturbing homosexual or pedophile like undertones or potential jokes.

I prefer the more dark idea of one broken and disturbed man's self expected one man war on crime.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by theLegend

Totally accurate from my perspective.

A neurotic, obsessive, suicidal, crazy man who fights crime at night dressed in the dark visage of a Bat ... and is fractured emotionally, essentially still an 8 year old in essence who never grew up ... seeking a father figure himself

In turn being that disturbed man yet supposedly is being a father figure to a young boy makes ZERO sense. As does the threatning image of a all black Bat fighting crime, with a colorful red and green CHILD makes zero sense as well.

As does the entire concept of introducing a CHILD into being a vigilante. Real heroic endeavour right there, Batman. If anything you should be steering him away from that life. Making something better and more productive out of it. It's Bruce Wayne's curse cause he's crazy. He shouldn't want it for anyone else.

Not to mention in the classic sense, the oddly disturbing homosexual or pedophile like undertones or potential jokes.

I prefer the more dark idea of one broken and disturbed man's self expected one man war on crime.

Stop being a closed minded dummy. Who said Bruce Wayne never grew up? He's not Peter Pan. There's a life lesson to be learned here... perhaps you haven't lost a parent, and God forbid that you do... because it's one of the most horrible things a person can experience, let alone having to lose both mother & father. Bruce Wayne grew up really damn quick after that, and it seems to me that he matured quicker than most.

Part of his journey through adulthood is that he is still traumatized by this event in his past, and the anger of the loss is what drives him. Also, he's had Alfred as a father figure his whole life, so to say he's essentially stuck in a state emotionally and mentally (as a child) is grossly incorrect.

As far as Bruce allowing a child vigilante into his life, it comes down to Bruce being able to identify with Robin, and the pain of that loss. Not many people will understand what Robin's suffering... they share that common pain. I think Bruce does what he feels is right in allowing Robin the opportunity to channel his own anger in fighting crime alongside Batman. Whether that's "right or wrong" is irrelevant. What Batman does is "wrong" in the eyes of the law, correct? Allowing Robin to become his partner, well that concept is no less a "heroic endeavor" than the very existence of Batman and his unlawful actions.

Regardless, the point that Hypestyle was making was that "something interesting" could have been done with Robin in the films. Who's to say Bruce couldn't adopt Grayson and send him off to boarding school so that he could have the best education, and yet remain a mentor to him in the matters of the heart? Seeing the boy grow up and deal with those issues, which are quite psychologically complex, could've been quite moving and interesting to watch. Especially if the relationship between Bruce and Dick had been established early on, cultivated and set up over two films, and then by the third film Robin would appear. It could have been well received and well done, and I think ultimately anyone that likes Robin one iota (or dislikes him) would want to it done in a way that draws the viewer in.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by theLegend

Totally accurate from my perspective.

A neurotic, obsessive, suicidal, crazy man who fights crime at night dressed in the dark visage of a Bat ... and is fractured emotionally, essentially still an 8 year old in essence who never grew up ... seeking a father figure himself

In turn being that disturbed man yet supposedly is being a father figure to a young boy makes ZERO sense. As does the threatning image of a all black Bat fighting crime, with a colorful red and green CHILD makes zero sense as well.

As does the entire concept of introducing a CHILD into being a vigilante. Real heroic endeavour right there, Batman. If anything you should be steering him away from that life. Making something better and more productive out of it. It's Bruce Wayne's curse cause he's crazy. He shouldn't want it for anyone else.

Not to mention in the classic sense, the oddly disturbing homosexual or pedophile like undertones or potential jokes.

I prefer the more dark idea of one broken and disturbed man's self expected one man war on crime.

Dude, which comics did you read to come to this description of Batman?

[Young Superman]

Of all the big screen Batman films Batman 89' is still my favorite followed by Batman Begins, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, and the 1966 Adam West Batman film.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by theLegend

Totally accurate from my perspective.

A neurotic, obsessive, suicidal, crazy man who fights crime at night dressed in the dark visage of a Bat ... and is fractured emotionally, essentially still an 8 year old in essence who never grew up ... seeking a father figure himself

In turn being that disturbed man yet supposedly is being a father figure to a young boy makes ZERO sense. As does the threatning image of a all black Bat fighting crime, with a colorful red and green CHILD makes zero sense as well.

As does the entire concept of introducing a CHILD into being a vigilante. Real heroic endeavour right there, Batman. If anything you should be steering him away from that life. Making something better and more productive out of it. It's Bruce Wayne's curse cause he's crazy. He shouldn't want it for anyone else.

Not to mention in the classic sense, the oddly disturbing homosexual or pedophile like undertones or potential jokes.

I prefer the more dark idea of one broken and disturbed man's self expected one man war on crime.

You notice how you can kinda tell you're wrong when four people immediately pop up to disagree with you?

In any case, your infantile opinion isn't what I was referring to as being inaccurate, it was you saying its a fact Burton had no interest in using Robin. He actually did - going as far as actually casting a Wayans brother for the role.

I believe he even received some form of payment too - despite being cut from the film. And, I believe, that cut was made largely due simply to time amd plotting constrains, considering Batman Returns was already featuring multiple subplots featuring Batman, Catwoman, and Penguin.

[Cain]

Burton was also a consultant in the selection of the Robin costume redesign by Neil Adams which premiered in Batman #457 back in the fall of 1990; about 8 months before BR even started filming. If he had no interest I doubt he'd have even bothered.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by Cain

Burton was also a consultant in the selection of the Robin costume redesign by Neil Adams which premiered in Batman #457 back in the fall of 1990; about 8 months before BR even started filming. If he had no interest I doubt he'd have even bothered.

Is that so? I must admit I never knew that, whats the source for this information?

[Cain]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

Is that so? I must admit I never knew that, whats the source for this information?

I'm surprised considering that you do a lot of Batman research. It's been cited many places but I could pin point one specific reference. I was actually re-reading all of the Tim Drake becomes Robin stuff by Alan Grant recently in light of the Scott Lobdell/Red Robin controversy and came across an old reference to the costume's origin.

It was in the letter pages of Batman #463 which came out in April of 1991. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner & my digital camera recently took an unfortunate dive in a pool but since I type pretty fast I'll just retype the letter and response verbatim

Hey, Denny

BATMAN #457 was excellent. Alan did a great job both on and with the Scarecrow. And I was quite impressed with his treatment of Tim Drake. His progression from young adult to young crimefighter has been handled extremely well by everyone involved with the project so far, and I have complete faith that things will remain at this current level of quality.

And the new costume looks great. I just hope there's some Kevlar in it somewhere. Who came up with the design? Later.

- Uncle Elvis

Don't worry, Unc - there's plenty of Kevlar in it, not to mention "fluid damped impact attenuation pads"! I'm not sure what it means, but it sounds impressive.

Tim Burton was a consultant in the selection of the costume, but the design was created by none other than Neal Adams.

[The Guard]

I realize this has already been pointed out, but multiple scripts Burton was part of for both BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS featured Robin in them before the character was cut out. Burton did sketches of Batman and Robin, and, as has been pointed out, Wayans was cast at one point, and Burton did have some input into Tim Drake's Robin costume. To say he had no interest in the character is absurd.

[Homer J. Fong]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I realize this has already been pointed out, but multiple scripts Burton was part of for both BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS featured Robin in them before the character was cut out. Burton did sketches of Batman and Robin, and, as has been pointed out, Wayans was cast at one point, and Burton did have some input into Tim Drake's Robin costume. To say he had no interest in the character is absurd.

Right, to say that he had no interest would be wrong, but ultimately, he didn't believe the character fit into either of those films or the world that he was portraying. I can't imagine the Burton-Keaton Batman with a Robin. And it's not because I hate Robin; I do prefer a Batman who fights solo (and you know what I mean by solo - obviously Alfred and Gordon should always be there), but that Batman with a Robin? Can't see it. And neither could Burton, ultimately.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by Cain

I'm surprised considering that you do a lot of Batman research. It's been cited many places but I could pin point one specific reference. I was actually re-reading all of the Tim Drake becomes Robin stuff by Alan Grant recently in light of the Scott Lobdell/Red Robin controversy and came across an old reference to the costume's origin.

It was in the letter pages of Batman #463 which came out in April of 1991. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner & my digital camera recently took an unfortunate dive in a pool but since I type pretty fast I'll just retype the letter and response verbatim

Hey, Denny

BATMAN #457 was excellent. Alan did a great job both on and with the Scarecrow. And I was quite impressed with his treatment of Tim Drake. His progression from young adult to young crimefighter has been handled extremely well by everyone involved with the project so far, and I have complete faith that things will remain at this current level of quality.

And the new costume looks great. I just hope there's some Kevlar in it somewhere. Who came up with the design? Later.

- Uncle Elvis

Don't worry, Unc - there's plenty of Kevlar in it, not to mention "fluid damped impact attenuation pads"! I'm not sure what it means, but it sounds impressive.

Tim Burton was a consultant in the selection of the costume, but the design was created by none other than Neal Adams.

Im surprised I didnt know it myself. Thanks

[CConn]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Fong

Right, to say that he had no interest would be wrong, but ultimately, he didn't believe the character fit into either of those films or the world that he was portraying. I can't imagine the Burton-Keaton Batman with a Robin. And it's not because I hate Robin; I do prefer a Batman who fights solo (and you know what I mean by solo - obviously Alfred and Gordon should always be there), but that Batman with a Robin? Can't see it. And neither could Burton, ultimately.

That's pure conjecture on your part.

Every quote that I've ever read more eluded to Robin being cut out of Batman Returns due to time constraints, not because of any reasoning that he didn't "fit" into Burton's world.

In fact, the simple fact that Burton went as far as casting an actor for the role pretty much infers that Burton did very much have his own unique vision for the character.

[Homer J. Fong]

Originally Posted by CConn

That's pure conjecture on your part.

Every quote that I've ever read more eluded to Robin being cut out of Batman Returns due to time constraints, not because of any reasoning that he didn't "fit" into Burton's world.

In fact, the simple fact that Burton went as far as casting an actor for the role pretty much infers that Burton did very much have his own unique vision for the character.

Not really. You had me second-guessing myself - "Am I making up the idea that Burton felt Robin wouldn't quite fit in his Batman?" - so I dug up some of the quotes I was sure I remembered from the DVDs.

From the Batman commentary:

“I think Sam and I, from the very beginning, that was thing number one, no Robin. I mean, just because, when you’re trying to do a new Batman movie, he just does not fit. And I even think Bob Kane, he was happy that there was no Robin in it. Because again, it doesn’t feel – a guy who wants to be hidden and alone and hide and not be found out…And it’s hard to come up with a psychological profile for a guy wearing a little red outfit with green booties, you know?”

From the Batman Returns commentary:

“With this movie, um, with all the other characters, again, didn’t find a place for Robin. I mean, I think I was always against it, and again, we didn’t really even…we abandoned it pretty quickly any thought of it just because of all the other characters.”

Daniel Waters, from the Batman Returns “Dark Side of the Knight” doc:

“We surprisingly got very little directives from the studio, like, ‘You must have Robin.’ There was none of that, really. We did try it, we did try something, and Tim was big on not making a big deal about it. We wanted to work in maybe a Robin character. I could tell he was not enthusiastic about it from the get-go….But we wanted more of a thing where it was kind of like something that would be hinted at and then developed in a later movie.”






Now, Burton may very well have found that psychological profile he talked about needing for his characters, and I agree that his casting Marlon Wayans may very well have meant that he did find his take. I didn't say Burton hated or had no interest in Robin at all. But his feeling that Robin wouldn't quite fit clearly had about as much to do with Robin's absence as time constraints. Not having enough time for Robin, what with all the other characters to serve, played more of a part in his removal from Returns, but not fitting in beside a very introverted Batman who's all about staying in the shadows definitely did as well.

[CConn]

You've proven me wrong.

That's actually rather rare. Good job.

[Homer J. Fong]

I didn't mean to be snippy about it; it was as much about trying to prove I wasn't way off and misremembering.

[CConn]

Hah, no, I'm not upset by it in the least. You were right.

[returntovoid]

[theLegend]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Fong

Not really. You had me second-guessing myself - "Am I making up the idea that Burton felt Robin wouldn't quite fit in his Batman?" - so I dug up some of the quotes I was sure I remembered from the DVDs.

From the Batman commentary:

“I think Sam and I, from the very beginning, that was thing number one, no Robin. I mean, just because, when you’re trying to do a new Batman movie, he just does not fit. And I even think Bob Kane, he was happy that there was no Robin in it. Because again, it doesn’t feel – a guy who wants to be hidden and alone and hide and not be found out…And it’s hard to come up with a psychological profile for a guy wearing a little red outfit with green booties, you know?”

From the Batman Returns commentary:

“With this movie, um, with all the other characters, again, didn’t find a place for Robin. I mean, I think I was always against it, and again, we didn’t really even…we abandoned it pretty quickly any thought of it just because of all the other characters.”

Daniel Waters, from the Batman Returns “Dark Side of the Knight” doc:

“We surprisingly got very little directives from the studio, like, ‘You must have Robin.’ There was none of that, really. We did try it, we did try something, and Tim was big on not making a big deal about it. We wanted to work in maybe a Robin character. I could tell he was not enthusiastic about it from the get-go….But we wanted more of a thing where it was kind of like something that would be hinted at and then developed in a later movie.”

Thanks for making my point.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by theLegend

Thanks for making my point.

At no point did anything that Burton or Waters say back up your inane babble. They simply explained (very politically I might add) as to why they didn't use Robin.

And thanks for ignoring my points, and in doing you've simply proved that you are being willfully obtuse. Now get out of it.

[The Joker]

Just had to post this pic I found of the late great Burgess Meredith aka The Penguin of Batman 1966 fame holding a copy of Batman 1989: