Peggy's status

[Webfoot Hero]

Deleted scenes are also different arrangements of information that directors will film to see how it works in the initial assembly cut. Just because something is deleted doesn't always mean it's canon within that movie universe.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by OccamsTaser

How is that? It's not impossible that a governing body would want to debrief more than one person directly involved in some incident.

Well, both lead to the same conversation for one thing.

In one, Fury talks to the counsel and then heads out to talk to Maria. In another, Maria talks to the counsel then heads out to talk to Fury. Their conversations are the same, so there's really no way to fit the two scene together.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

Well, both lead to the same conversation for one thing.

In one, Fury talks to the counsel and then heads out to talk to Maria. In another, Maria talks to the counsel then heads out to talk to Fury. Their conversations are the same, so there's really no way to fit the two scene together.

Uh....no. Those were two very different conversations about the same subject. Occam already hinted at it above, but I'll just add to it: the Council debriefed Fury first, then Hill, and tried to get her to sell Fury down the river. Which she admitted to doing....but that was exactly what Fury had planned and wanted her to do.

Not that hard to figure out....standard procedure from cop shows where you interview first one perp, then the other, and try to convince each that the other one sold them out.

[BullMcGiveny]

I actually meant the conversation that happens AFTER each teleconference. But sure, I'll concede that.

But there remains the Dubai scene in Iron Man, the deleted opening of TIH, and countless others in non-Marvel movies. Rambo had an an alternate ending where Rambo dies. I am Legend had a directors cut where Will Smith dies, etc.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

I actually meant the conversation that happens AFTER each teleconference. But sure, I'll concede that.

But there remains the Dubai scene in Iron Man, the deleted opening of TIH, and countless others in non-Marvel movies. Rambo had an an alternate ending where Rambo dies. I am Legend had a directors cut where Will Smith dies, etc.

Sure, a lot of DVDs/BRs include alt endings, but those are essentially different from deleted scenes. Alt endings (or alt scenes, period) are just ways for the director to pick and choose the one that works best. Deleted scenes, however, work more as scenes that were originally intended for the final cut, but were left out (and more often than not, that choice is made by the producer/studio rather than the director).

As for the whole TIH alt opening, chalk that up to Leterrier trying to pad his movie with some cheap easter eggs that were never officially signed off on. Producer Gale Hurd went on record as saying that Leterrier was flat out wrong when he said that Cap was "in" TIH, and that the only easter egg in there about him was the SSS reference.

In any event, Leterrier got it completely wrong, if he *was* trying to add a Capsicle cameo. Every comic book fan knows that Cap went down over the North Atlantic off the US Coast; but the TIH opening takes place above the Arctic Circle in either Canada or Alaska, and the ocean shown there would have been the Arctic Ocean. Leterrier got it wrong by several thousand miles; so it's safe to assume that the alt TIH opening isn't legit, at least when it comes to the Cap reference.

[metaphysician]

Put simply: deleted scenes are not canon. A director's cut might be, sure. . . but until such a director's cut is released, they remained stuff that is not part of the movie.

[BullMcGiveny]

Could I point out that even if they were obliged to treat the scene as canon, they could just as easily she dies around the events of the Avengers.

[BoredGuy]

There was also the deleted scene in IM2 with Pepper kissing the helmet on the plane, even though she was on the ground when Stark lands.

I'm sure we could find plenty more examples too, but this is hurting my head.

Sorry Sam, deleted scenes are NOT canon.
Get Feige to go on record saying otherwise, and I'll believe you.
'till then, I say CA:TWS includes some similar scenes to show how he adapts

[ThePowerCosmic]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

Could I point out that even if they were obliged to treat the scene as canon, they could just as easily she dies around the events of the Avengers.

Maybe she saw Steve on tv and had a heart attack.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

Could I point out that even if they were obliged to treat the scene as canon, they could just as easily she dies around the events of the Avengers.

You could, and you wouldn't be wrong.

And then we're right back at Square One for this whole heated "Is Peggy dead?" argument. I'm all for Peggy dying long before Capsicle wakes up from the ice, and have said so; but some posters here took the screencaps and video of Peggy's SHIELD dossier as absolute proof that she's still alive in 2012. And I pointed out that, yes, that's the case, but Steve does not try to contact her.

So if the Russos decide to ignore that scene as non-canon and write their own version of what happened/happens to Peggy, they can certainly do so, pending studio approval.

As far as I'm concerned, though, Joss took a lot of time and effort to address that very question, and he addressed it very well in a short sequence that damn well should have remained in the theatrical release. I figure that the Russos will respect Joss enough to stick to his take on the subject, and may even "canonize" it by referring to the deleted scene in their movie.

At the very least, I think it would be pretty rude of the Russos to say, "**** Joss Whedon, this is how *we* want to address the Steve & Peggy story."

[TheVileOne]

Good thing you know what the Russos are going to do and want to do .

[Eduardo]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

2) The TIH alt opening *is* canon, and was, in fact, referenced in the Avengers, when Banner clearly speaks about the scene where he swallowed a bullet and "the other guy" spit it out. The sketchy Cap appearance has never been confirmed beyond just a shadowy blur in the ice; but even if you accept the theory, there is nothing there that necessarily contradicts the Capsicle story arc. In fact, it could enhance it: Hulk's massive strike could have been the catalyst that actually jarred the Flying Wing a lot closer to the surface for SHIELD to locate, and Cap's body might have been frozen nearby and *bounced* closer to the plane. This IS Hulk Smash we're talking about, after all.

a) In the alternate opening, Bruce never shots himself, he hulks out and smashs the gun before even pointing it.

No shot, nowhere near the mouth, no spitting out the bullet.

b) Banner says:
"I got low. I didn't see an end. So, I put a bullet in my mouth, and the other guy spit it out.

So I moved on. I focused on helping other people. I was good. Until you dragged me back into this freak show"

That could put the suicide attempt (the description doesn't match the alternate opening) between Inc. Hulk & The Avengers, somewhere in the (was it two?) years between the movies.

Banner mentions that he buried himself in helping people (when he is practicing medicine), something he wasn't doing in the Incredible Hulk movie, in it he was still looking for the cure.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

Good thing you know what the Russos are going to do and want to do .

Did I say I did? I don't think I said I did.
There's a lot of "if" and "may" and "could" in my post. Please feel free to chide me whenever I start passing off speculation as fact. Until then, quit trying to pretend that I am.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

You could, and you wouldn't be wrong.

And then we're right back at Square One for this whole heated "Is Peggy dead?" argument. I'm all for Peggy dying long before Capsicle wakes up from the ice, and have said so; but some posters here took the screencaps and video of Peggy's SHIELD dossier as absolute proof that she's still alive in 2012. And I pointed out that, yes, that's the case, but Steve does not try to contact her.

So if the Russos decide to ignore that scene as non-canon and write their own version of what happened/happens to Peggy, they can certainly do so, pending studio approval.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

As far as I'm concerned, though, Joss took a lot of time and effort to address that very question, and he addressed it very well in a short sequence that damn well should have remained in the theatrical release. I figure that the Russos will respect Joss enough to stick to his take on the subject, and may even "canonize" it by referring to the deleted scene in their movie.

At the very least, I think it would be pretty rude of the Russos to say, "**** Joss Whedon, this is how *we* want to address the Steve & Peggy story."

To each their own. Frankly, I think Whedon was overstepping his bounds by addressing it. I agree that it was a great scene, and perhaps it should have been included in the theatrical release. But for it to be cut out, therefore never seen by a majority who won't get the Blu-Ray, it really would be overbearing not to allow the people in charge of the Captain America franchise to address the fate of characters in the Captain America franchise who aren't connected in a meaningful way to the Avengers franchise.

[IRMusic_Sam]

I think the best way to deal with Peggy would be to have Steve visit her grave, and then have a titanic ending styled scene where we see A young Peggy and Steve dancing together, which would of course all be in Steve's head, finally having the dance they promised each other in CA:TFA, I think this scene could work well as the end of the movie, while throughout the film we have a subplot of Steve searching for Peggy, or at least asking people from shield and after the climax of the film have a shield agent of some sort, maybe Fury, break the news to him that she passed away peacefully recently, which then prompts Steve to visit her grave

[The Caped Knight]

From deleted scene - "Steve Rogers: A Man out of time"

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Caped Knight

From deleted scene - "Steve Rogers: A Man out of time"

We covered this already.

Some people (me, not being one of them) are of the opinion that since it's a deleted scene from the Avengers, it's not canon.

[BoredGuy]

Yes.
And, best anyone can tell, we are correct.
Don't be smug, it's unappealing.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BoredGuy

Yes.
And, best anyone can tell, we are correct.
Don't be smug, it's unappealing.

Said the guy who smugly said he's right, and anybody who disagrees with him is wrong.

How about we say that it's still up in the air until CATWS officially addresses the matter, SmugGuy? It's not "official" until then. *Then* one or the other of us can do our "toldja so" happy dance.

[BoredGuy]

Hah, thought that might hit a nerve :P

That's been exactly my damn point!
You can't say it's definitelvely canon, nor can I say it's not... but until the actual filmmakers confirm, I will continue to assume it's not.
And then if CA2 includes a scene where they call out that deleted scene from Avengers, well then I guess I'll have to eat crow.
But I would be VERY surprised if the Russos didn't handle this in their own way with their own scene in CA2

and don't call me SmugGuy, that's a sad, lame attempt at turning my jab around, k thx

[TheVileOne]

Johnston and Feige already confirmed it at the press junket for The First Avenger.

[Ksb36]

The filmakers clearly don't want to be boxed in, committed to one storyline when they don't even know quite how they want to get a character to a certain point. They may know the end they want to achieve, but at the time the Avengers filmed, there may have been discussion about how much of Cap's past they wanted to address in an ensemble piece.

My best guess is that due to the tragic nature of Cap's lost love, they didn't want to settle that plot point until he was in his own story. The Cap/Peggy romance was the best one in the Marvel cinematic universe, so far (although I do really like Tony/Pepper) and they want to give it the weight it deserves. So, NO, in my opinion, this scene, while nicely done, is not yet cannon.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Ksb36

The filmakers clearly don't want to be boxed in, committed to one storyline when they don't even know quite how they want to get a character to a certain point. They may know the end they want to achieve, but at the time the Avengers filmed, there may have been discussion about how much of Cap's past they wanted to address in an ensemble piece.

My best guess is that due to the tragic nature of Cap's lost love, they didn't want to settle that plot point until he was in his own story. The Cap/Peggy romance was the best one in the Marvel cinematic universe, so far (although I do really like Tony/Pepper) and they want to give it the weight it deserves. So, NO, in my opinion, this scene, while nicely done, is not yet cannon.

Eh.
I'm all for romance in the MCU, especially for the 93-Year Old Virgin, but some of you are grossly overrating the Peggy thing. "Best one in the MCU....?" Hardly. They only kissed once, and that was nothing more than a Leia-style "for luck." And as for the comic book canon: we're in uncharted territory regarding Peggy now. In 616, there was only 20 years removed from WWII to Cap's unthawing, so Peg was still very much alive, very much an active SHIELD agent, and very much a hungry cougar still after young Steve. Not possible in the MCU, when 70 years (and possibly death) separates them.

Tony-Pepper, Thor-Jane, Bruce-Betty, and even Widow-Hawkeye have more romantic development and potential in the MCU than Steve-Peggy ever did. The only romance there at all is just a promise that was never fulfilled. Poetic and tragic, but *not* romantic.

[BullMcGiveny]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Eh.
I'm all for romance in the MCU, especially for the 93-Year Old Virgin, but some of you are grossly overrating the Peggy thing. "Best one in the MCU....?" Hardly. They only kissed once, and that was nothing more than a Leia-style "for luck." And as for the comic book canon: we're in uncharted territory regarding Peggy now. In 616, there was only 20 years removed from WWII to Cap's unthawing, so Peg was still very much alive, very much an active SHIELD agent, and very much a hungry cougar still after young Steve. Not possible in the MCU, when 70 years (and possibly death) separates them.

Tony-Pepper, Thor-Jane, Bruce-Betty, and even Widow-Hawkeye have more romantic development and potential in the MCU than Steve-Peggy ever did. The only romance there at all is just a promise that was never fulfilled. Poetic and tragic, but *not* romantic.

It is a romantic subplot, in that it involved two people of compatible gender and orientation having feelings for another. And it is one that is unique and better done. It is more memorable, at any rate.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

It is a romantic subplot, in that it involved two people of compatible gender and orientation having feelings for another. And it is one that is unique and better done. It is more memorable, at any rate.

It's never an official internet flamefest until somebody throws a little homophobia into the mix, is it. *sigh*