Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

[BigThor]

I do agree that Loki's "redemption" should be saved for Thor 3, it's just too early for him to have a sudden change of heart right now.

[JustSomeGuy]

And no, I'm not wrong. I'm not talking about a personal interpretation of the scene, I'm talking about objective fact. After stabbing Thor, tears are rolling down his cheeks as he says, "Sentiment.". I saw the film in cinemas 3 times, and noticed it each time. The people I went to see the film with on each occasion all remarked on it. People on these forums have commented on it as a standout Loki moment. It shows there is some level of sadness and regret about his actions, unless you want to argue that he's so happy about being bad that he's crying tears of joy.

Loki is a villain, no doubt. But to suggest he is just pure evil with no hints whatsoever of moral conflict in these films is laughable.

Really? It's objective fact, and you are basing that on what exactly? Did you call up your friend Tom Hiddleston and have a conversation with him about it? Yours is the very definition of an interpretation:

in·ter·pre·ta·tion   [in-tur-pri-tey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of interpreting; elucidation; explication: This writer's work demands interpretation.
2.
an explanation of the meaning of another's artistic or creative work ; an elucidation: an interpretation of a poem.

Unless you can talk to Joss Whedon and/or Tom Hiddleston, everything we say here is interpretation. And besides, it makes no sense that him shedding a tear is a showing of how torn he is. He did it after he stabbed Thor in the ribs. Why would he be torn about what to do, right after he stabs his brother in the ribs? That would be like me shooting a deer and then trying to decide if I want to actually go hunting. And besides, he is smiling when he says it!

I might be inclined to agree with you if he did it before stabbing him in the ribs, or if he wasn't smiling when he said it. But he does both. Idk how you can say this is him being torn. This is him laughing at the sight of it, the same way he laughs to himself a million times during the movie.

But oh well. Agree to disagree. That's the great thing about interpretations, everybody can have there own.

[Keyser Soze]

You're still not getting it. I'm saying something that plainly happened on-screen happened. You're saying something that plainly happened on-screen didn't happen, or doesn't count, or whatever- I'm not quite sure. It's as much an interpretation as me "interpreting" that The Hulk kicked Loki's ass and you "interpreting" that it was an evenly matched fight.

If there's any interpretation in my post, it's in the reasoning behind the tear. And I'd say in the context of the scene, "because he is sad at what he has done" is about the safest assumption about the meaning behind the scene to be gleaned.

[Doc Ock]

I love Loki, one of the greatest villains in the comic book world. Its great to see Tom Hiddleston will return in this sequel but I do agree that he should have a minor role and should be dealing with his "punishment." I don't want Loki to become stale in the MCU, save something for a future sequel or something.

[BigThor]

I'm not saying you're lying Keyser, but I've seen the film 5 times and I never noticed Loki shedding a tear in that scene.

I'll be sure to pay attention the next time I watch it bro, because all I saw was a smile.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by BigThor

I'm not saying you're lying Keyser, but I've seen the film 5 times and I never noticed Loki shedding a tear in that scene.

I'll be sure to pay attention the next time I watch it bro, because all I saw was a smile.

Nah, maybe I need to pull back on what I said yesterday. If multiple people are saying they didn't see it, maybe it was me that misviewed the film and I'm mistaken about the tear. We'll postpone this argument until I can see the film on DVD and know for sure I saw what I saw.

[JustSomeGuy]

No I totally agree that there was a tear, there definitely was one. I can post a screen cap of it if you want, but I am not sure if I am allowed. I just disagree that the reason behind the tear was how torn up Loki was about what he was doing.

[SlackBrian]

The thing that sticks out in my mind about that scene was the mocking tone Loki said "sentiment" with. I don't recall any tears, but I can't say for sure if there weren't any. But his tone and attitude didn't seem to suggest a conflicted nature about what he was doing.

Edit: Just watched the scene again. Yep, there was definitely a single tear that rolled down his cheek after he stabbed Thor and said "sentiment". So, hooray.

[JustSomeGuy]

Originally Posted by SlackBrian

The thing that sticks out in my mind about that scene was the mocking tone Loki said "sentiment" with. I don't recall any tears, but I can't say for sure if there weren't any. But his tone and attitude didn't seem to suggest a conflicted nature about what he was doing.

Edit: Just watched the scene again. Yep, there was definitely a single tear that rolled down his cheek after he stabbed Thor and said "sentiment". So, hooray.

Yes, he mutters "sentiment" to himself in a sort of "that's adorable" kind of way. In fact, I think Joss Whedon does like to employ characters muttering things like that to themselves. Iron Man says "tourist" referring to Thor, obviously "puny god." I would imagine it's something Whedon likes to do as it crops up several times in the film.

[DocHoliday]

Coming to blu-ray soon so i'll check this out myself. I've seen it 5 times as well.

[Doc Ock]

I only saw it once. I was late to the party....

[DocHoliday]

Trust me my pocketbook wishes I hadn't. I paid for myself and ole girl.

[Godzilla2000]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Haha. So wait, he's unwaveringly evil but you want him redeemed in Thor 3? Gotta pick one

Hmmm...I translate that as Loki actually doing something that doesn't cause death and destruction but actually helps the side of good for once. I don't think Loki is an inherently good person, I mean he hasn't been bothered with the safety of innocent people and was willing to commit genocide, but would do something if it benefited him. Maybe there is that misunderstood person in there that only wanted to be loved, but I think the Loki we saw for most of Thor is gone hardened by his experiences.

[jaqua99]

I saw it 7 times in theaters lol

[Godzilla2000]

^What does that have to do with Loki in Thor 2? O.o?

[herolee10]

I definitely hope that we get a heartfelt scene between Loki and Frigga, since by all accounts, she was the only one that Loki didn't have any bad feelings for at the conclusion of "Thor", and I'd definitely like to see Frigga attempt to convince Loki of his wrongdoings, even though we know that it won't most likely work in the end.

[TheCorpulent1]

A lot of people keep saying Loki is evil. In my mind, Loki is not and never has been evil. He's a petulant child lashing out at his uncaring father and popular brother. He's just also incredibly intelligent, so he finds really complex and intriguing ways to lash out at them. The fact that he kills a few mortals along the way doesn't really make him evil because, frankly, all of the gods other than Thor himself and maybe Odin view the mortals as little more than pets.

As far as Loki in the next movie, I wouldn't mind the beginnings of a redemption arc for him. That could be cool. He's a prisoner but you know he'd be a very Hannibal Lecter-style prisoner, toying with everyone's mind even while he's locked up. Really, though, what I have my heart set on is a big blowout with Surtur in Thor 3 where Loki ultimately joins Odin and Thor to defend Asgard together.

[xeno000]

Originally Posted by SlackBrian

The thing that sticks out in my mind about that scene was the mocking tone Loki said "sentiment" with. I don't recall any tears, but I can't say for sure if there weren't any. But his tone and attitude didn't seem to suggest a conflicted nature about what he was doing.

Edit: Just watched the scene again. Yep, there was definitely a single tear that rolled down his cheek after he stabbed Thor and said "sentiment". So, hooray.

That one little tear I put down to Loki realizing that he was in too deep to back out and save himself rather than any sentiment he felt for his brother, save contempt. When Thor appealed to him to stop the attack on Earth, the look on Loki's face was one of sheer panic. The weasel knew that Tony Stark had been right, that there was no possible way his schemes would culminate in his taking the imaginary throne on Earth. And his bargain with Thanos had to have been on his mind as well. The Other had already warned him of the tortures he could expect if he failed to deliver the Tesseract. Loki's tear was for himself and no one else.


Remember, not only had Loki stabbed Thor mere seconds before that self-serving, self-pitying tear rolled down his cheek, he had also just hours earlier sent his brother on a six-mile plunge in hopes of killing him. And prior to that Loki actually did succeed in killing Thor with the Destroyer. When he discovered that his brother had been revived, his reaction was fury, not relief.


I am not arguing that Loki is not conflicted, or that he doesn't have deeply twisted motivations for his evil acts. But I do think that much of his internal conflict is inner directed, that it centers on himself and his feelings rather than on others or the damage he inflicts on the world around him. Loki will never feel genuine remorse for hurting anyone because he doesn't place any value on any life but his own. He killed thousands of human beings during his invasion, something that I definitely think made him irredeemable. He will be redeemed, of course, or pretend to be in order to dupe the ever-gullible Thor once more. Perhaps one day Loki will sacrifice himself to save Asgard in a parody of nobility, but only with an ulterior motive.

[Godzilla2000]

I chalk up Loki's moment of grief in the Avengers as his realization that he's in too deep getting involved with a thug like Thanos and that what he did is irreversible. That part of Loki's soul that was just a misunderstood, lonely boy in effect died the day he let go of Gungnir and plunged into that portal. To me it's almost like Loki mourns for his loss of innocence and the physical distress that Thanos must have put him through to "harden" him and make him completely apathetic. I'm sure Thanos and his underlings have accosted Loki verbally as well as physically and chastised him for being so sentimental. I don't know a lot about Thanos but I wager any sign of mercy or emotion other than aggression is seen as a weakness to him. Even if Loki redeems himself, he'll be forever scarred by his experiences.

[Oberon sexton]

Even if Loki does help defeat another big bad (Surtur) that still doesn't absolve him of the evil he had done. The good act does not wash away the bad nor the bad the good.

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton

Even if Loki does help defeat another big bad (Surtur) that still doesn't absolve him of the evil he had done. The good act does not wash away the bad nor the bad the good.

So what would he have to do to achieve redemption?

[Oberon sexton]

Resurrect all those innocent lives he stole.

[Godzilla2000]

Originally Posted by Oberon sexton

Even if Loki does help defeat another big bad (Surtur) that still doesn't absolve him of the evil he had done. The good act does not wash away the bad nor the bad the good.

I have to agree with you there that the crime of destroying all those innocent lives spanning the nine realms Loki was responsible for snuffing cannot be erased. As I said Loki's innocence is lost forever and he can try to redeem himself but the fact of the matter is that many men, women and children have perished and many more will perish in the future because of his petulant acts.

[Baneis8feettall]

It would be nice if Loki would take the role of Ben from Lost. He is needed somehow because of the story,he might even be on same team with the heroes but always a potential to betray Thor in a blink of an eye.

That would give lots of scenes Thor & Loki together. Loki is as big character as Thor right now if not bigger. Marvel wouldn't shoot their own leg by giving him in a minor role.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

So what would he have to do to achieve redemption?

Nothing

I don't want the Thor movies to end with Loki as a "good guy".

He can have his redemption moment in helping to defeat Surtur, for himself.

But as he said to Black Widow, everything he has done in the past is already there, it CANNOT be redeemed.

Loki should be recognized as an evil sick and twist guy. He can have a redemption arc in 3, and he will. But it won't make him any better a person.

Loki needs to be evil. If the Thor franchise ends with Loki being forgiven, by everyone, by himself, and with him not really...a villain anymore...

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