The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

[Mace Dolex]

Originally Posted by returntovoid

After 23 years new pictures are still popping up, nice view of Keaton without the gloves and Bat-emblem.

[mongoose-mania]

I'm getting a Tiny Tim vibe from Tim Burton in that picture...

[Homer J. Fong]

Have you ever seen them in the same room at the same time?

[mongoose-mania]

Good Lord, you're right!

[Ponyboy]

Nice!

Looks like the alley fight scene after Batman rescues Vicki at the Flugelgugelheimen?

Originally Posted by returntovoid

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by mongoose-mania

I'm getting a Tiny Tim vibe from Tim Burton in that picture...

I'm getting more of a Joker vibe.

[Marx]

I love seeing the behind-the-scenes pics.

[Doc Ock]

Its hard to believe we(or at least I) haven't seen these pics until now!

[TruerToTheCore]

Last night I re-read the first Black Mask story. Sam Hamm definitely ripped this off and imposed lots of stuff on the Joker.

It's clear now: Nicholson's Joker = Black Mask + Cesar Romero (Silver Age Joker)

So the Joker wasn't based on "Five Way Revenge", "The Dark Knight Returns", "The Killing Joke", "The Laughing Fish" and whatever (not that those stories are all good).

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Last night I re-read the first Black Mask story. Sam Hamm definitely ripped this off and imposed lots of stuff on the Joker.

It's clear now: Nicholson's Joker = Black Mask + Cesar Romero (Silver Age Joker)

So the Joker wasn't based on "Five Way Revenge", "The Dark Knight Returns", "The Killing Joke", "The Laughing Fish" and whatever (not that those stories are all good).

Really? Cause theres loads of stuff from 70s and 30s that Joker does that Nicholson does, very little of Silver Age. From dancing to crimes, talking to corpses, being into art, the whole ego thing, using seemingly fun gadgets for murder, sick devotion to a woman who he wants to kill and be be with at the same time etc,

[TruerToTheCore]

Well, it's obvious that you can cite some examples here and there but in many cases I think it's just a coincidence. Sam Hamm obviously read lots of comics (and watched the TV series) so a lot of things slip in.

I've just got this idea when I was thinking about how the next Batman movie could look like. Then I thought about Black Mask and noticed that you actually couldn't feature him in a movie because everything about his original appearance screamed Jack Nicholson except the humor. And the Circe - Alicia connection just makes this pretty obvious. The Joker of this time wasn't even that extreme, a deadly prankster, yes, but not that deranged (talking about 1985).

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Well, it's obvious that you can cite some examples here and there but in many cases I think it's just a coincidence. Sam Hamm obviously read lots of comics (and watched the TV series) so a lot of things slip in.
.

Yeah, some of it I believe is, but also some are not. Im glad we finally are able to have some civil conversation

[kewlmatto]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

The Joker of this time wasn't even that extreme, a deadly prankster, yes, but not that deranged (talking about 1985).

Yes. Until the very late 80s (by the time the film was already well into production), Joker was a little less homicidal and deranged. I think Nicholson portrays that Joker well - there isn't the real 'nasty' streak to him that tends to happen when Joker gets angry in modern interpretations.

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Then I thought about Black Mask and noticed that you actually couldn't feature him in a movie because everything about his original appearance screamed Jack Nicholson except the humor.

Hmmm...while I accept there are similarities, it's more in the way Black Mask is written by individual writers. The character can be spun differently, or just be another Joker clone - much like Riddler really.

I'm writing a fanscript at the moment for a third Burton Batman movie where Max Shreck becomes Black Mask. While I think yes there are similarities to Joker in the way I've written him, I think there is also enough of a difference to make him his own villain and deserve featuring him. The thing that helps the most was having him know Batman's identity (following from Returns) - it makes the cat-and-mouse between him and Batman a bit different from Joker, who no matter what, never seems to find out and in modern interpretations, never really cares. I'd be interested to know what you think.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by kewlmatto

Yes. Until the very late 80s (by the time the film was already well into production), Joker was a little less homicidal and deranged. I think Nicholson portrays that Joker well - there isn't the real 'nasty' streak to him that tends to happen when Joker gets angry in modern interpretations.

I don't like most modern portrayals of the Joker. Not going to say they aren't true to the character but... I don't like the Joker gassing kids. I don't like the Joker tied to a chair and slobbering. I don't like the Joker looking almost disfigured (I think the combination of a tall and skinny guy with a long face that is entirely white and the big smile is scary enough).

The Joker was one of my favorite characters when he still played a "battle of the wits" with Batman and he seemed to be well aware how that goes. Remember, that even in "Five Way Revenge" the Joker is just trying to kill the guy who betrayed him and since he doesn't know WHO it was he just kills them all. That's a good Joker story. The Joker committing a crime but making mistakes so Batman doesn't think it wasn't the Joker. That's good stuff here. The last great classic Joker story is still the Doug Moench three-parter "Laugh, Killer, Laugh" / "The Joker is Wild" with the genius Joker quote after one of his goons asks him "What is he doing, boss?" "He's being Batman, you idiot." And of course "The Last Laugh" / "Catch As Catscan" from Mike W. Barr - although there we already have the lame "Joker-is-a-transvestite" thing...

The Joker trying to sell a cruise missile because he is broke and then killing Robin without even thinking about what that means... not so much.

The Joker suddenly trying to justify himself... not so much.

Although those two stories (and TDKR) brought him back to the "arch villain" status he's lost to Ra's al Ghul in the 70s.

Hmmm...while I accept there are similarities, it's more in the way Black Mask is written by individual writers. The character can be spun differently, or just be another Joker clone - much like Riddler really.

I am, of course, talking about the original interpretation, not the cult leader and the crime boss from the 00s. In this time Black Mask was actually scarier than the Joker to me, since Black Mask didn't take it as a game. He was dead serious.

I'm writing a fanscript at the moment for a third Burton Batman movie where Max Shreck becomes Black Mask. While I think yes there are similarities to Joker in the way I've written him, I think there is also enough of a difference to make him his own villain and deserve featuring him. The thing that helps the most was having him know Batman's identity (following from Returns) - it makes the cat-and-mouse between him and Batman a bit different from Joker, who no matter what, never seems to find out and in modern interpretations, never really cares. I'd be interested to know what you think.

Going to read it.

[kewlmatto]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

I don't like most modern portrayals of the Joker. Not going to say they aren't true to the character but... I don't like the Joker gassing kids. I don't like the Joker tied to a chair and slobbering. I don't like the Joker looking almost disfigured (I think the combination of a tall and skinny guy with a long face that is entirely white and the big smile is scary enough).

I agree. It's like the audience became a little complacent so they did all they could to try to make Joker 'edgy' again. I like the idea that people would flee just at the sight of him in the first place - knowing he's around creates a sense of unhinged chaos. I loved how they portrayed him in Gotham Central. He was really fairly subdued. But he played with people's minds so well.

Nicholson had a tinge of this. I absolutely love the scene in front of City Hall, where he suddenly appears after his mime henchmen. It's short, but it's wonderful. I love the feeling of an everyday, routine scene suddenly slipping as the Joker appears. In the comics we don't get this as much. That transition is the best thing about Joker to me...he just subtly makes the scene insane.

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

I am, of course, talking about the original interpretation, not the cult leader and the crime boss from the 00s. In this time Black Mask was actually scarier than the Joker to me, since Black Mask didn't take it as a game. He was dead serious.

I haven't read many of the earlier Black Mask stories, will have to track them down (mostly read since mid-90s). I've had to take a few liberties with the character because I'm turning him into Shreck instead of Sionis, but I'm hoping to keep the core of the character - his vendetta against Bruce Wayne is central. I'm trying to keep it so that he only thinks of things as a game when he is winning (which has been everything so far)...

Trying to take the theme of Shreck falling from being a wealthy industrial capitalist into a criminal, seeking bitter revenge on the system he failed in. A bit of an anarchist, but only so far as his selfish revenge will take him...not all that principled. I feel this kind of echoes Sionis too, hopefully.

Interested to know if I've strayed too far.

[GothamAlleys]

One of my favorite shots of Batman in the movie

[Doc Ock]

Look at that chin! One awesome chin.

[Rodrigo90]

I've been a bit dense, but I've realised it, I think.

Joker being a narcissist in the movie, concerned for his looks. Does Joker do what he does, like scarring Alicia's face, all because he's trying to 'perfect' people, to be like him? Because he see's himself as 'art' and then see's Alicia as art after her face is like his.

Could he be doing this because he's trying to cope with becoming disfigured? He's lying to himself that he thinks he looks good?

[Two-Face]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

One of my favorite shots of Batman in the movie

The Dark Knight!

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

God I love Michael Keatons Batman with a passion.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Originally Posted by Rodrigo90

I've been a bit dense, but I've realised it, I think.

Joker being a narcissist in the movie, concerned for his looks. Does Joker do what he does, like scarring Alicia's face, all because he's trying to 'perfect' people, to be like him? Because he see's himself as 'art' and then see's Alicia as art after her face is like his.

Could he be doing this because he's trying to cope with becoming disfigured? He's lying to himself that he thinks he looks good?

Certainly a way of looking at it.

[The Guard]

To a point.

He's embracing his deformity, as Joker has always done.

He's made it into a sort of joke, like everything else. He wants everyone else to be dragged down with him.

[Homer J. Fong]

I take it that he in the moment when he looks into the plastic surgeon's mirror, he snaps. He's not trying to convince himself that he looks good as a coping mechanism, he truly does think that, he does embrace it, he uses this as a way to start remaking himself and then Gotham. I'm not rejecting complexity or hidden meanings, but I think that when he says, "I'm the world's first fully functioning homicidal artist," that's exactly it. In one of the Simpsons flashback episodes, Marge hands Homer a picture that Bart's just drawn, which we don't see, and Homer looks, then huddles and screams, "Send it to Hell!" I think that's essentially this Joker, an artist who now has the means and ability to pursue his vision. A vision that's the most twisted, gruesome joke.

[kewlmatto]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Fong

I take it that he in the moment when he looks into the plastic surgeon's mirror, he snaps. He's not trying to convince himself that he looks good as a coping mechanism, he truly does think that, he does embrace it, he uses this as a way to start remaking himself and then Gotham. I'm not rejecting complexity or hidden meanings, but I think that when he says, "I'm the world's first fully functioning homicidal artist," that's exactly it. In one of the Simpsons flashback episodes, Marge hands Homer a picture that Bart's just drawn, which we don't see, and Homer looks, then huddles and screams, "Send it to Hell!" I think that's essentially this Joker, an artist who now has the means and ability to pursue his vision. A vision that's the most twisted, gruesome joke.

I think you've summarised it well. We were shown that Jack Napier was into art early in the film as well. He has art in his apartment, he is very concerned with his fashion and style. Almost similar to American Psycho yuppie-style obsession with aesthetics.

[Rodrigo90]

But what did he mean when he said to Batman
"You dropped me into that vat of chemicals. That wasn't easy to get over and don't think that I didn't try"?

That could mean he did snap and lost his mind at the sight of his disfigurement. That what he looked like before (his idea of perfect) was destroyed and he did try to cope by doing what he did. His mind could have coped by convincing himself that what he's looking at as 'perfection'.

He's a man who believes his own bull****. He genuinely doesn't see himself as a killer as the Joker, but rather chillingly as an artist painting a pretty picture. He see's himself as art and everything he does as art.