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Old 09-25-2012, 06:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Q:I thinkTDKR shows how everything Batman is used to do with everybody doesn't work with Selina (and Bane, in another way), for example the fact he hides on the shadows and she saw him (“don't be shy”) and even the “thank you” think, he refused to accept Gordon thanking him and Selina not just didn't thanked (“You're welcome!) and later vanished like he did with Gordon. Did you saw more things like that between them?

A:I think the biggest thing we’ve not mentioned is that Batman saves Catwoman’s life, but she also returns the gesture—with BONUS Batpod guns. Now how’s that for irony!
Is that a catalyst that helps Bruce unshackle himself from Batman? I don’t mean that he completely divorces himself from Batman (I don’t think that’s at all possible) but Batman’s one staunch policy is to never kill, especially with guns, and that is completely flipped on its head by Selina, who kills another person (OK, it was no ordinary person) to save his life using his guns. Call it irony or poetic justice—I know I would have to reconsider my philosophy after such an experience.
I don’t really want to go into Batman’s ethics here—that is many theses in itself—but I just want to highlight how Selina constantly and unabashedly walks in the areas that Bruce/Batman doesn’t (that is, morally and emotionally). Is that problematic for him? Of course, but I think what TDKR suggests is that they both become adaptable—to their situations, to their beliefs and to each other. And that leads to another integral ingredient to a lasting relationship: compromise.
I think it’s fascinating that Bruce would eventually end up with Selina, the theoretical antithesis to both Bruce and Batman. Selina isn’t “punished” for her crimes, because she simply “did what she had to” (yet it’s not for want of trying to get onto the sunnier side of the law—the “clean slate”). We can echo Rachel’s words from Begins: “it’s not who you are underneath, it’s what you do that defines you.” Bruce and Selina are both children of Gotham, conditioned by Gotham (but yes, raised in vastly different circumstances), but at the crux of what they do, and what they both want, they are in sync. It’s why Bruce isn’t mad at Selina, and it’s why Selina stays for Batman.


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Old 09-25-2012, 08:36 AM   #27
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I have? I'm pretty sure I've explained before that I'm not. It's not my preference, but I don't dislike them as a couple. That's quite an assumption just because my POV is that Bruce/Selina here, in TDKR, doesn't work. IMO. You can't seem to get that and you never let me alone with my opinion. You always have to argue.

For the record, I loved Bruce and Selina in Batman Returns. I thought they worked, and Bruce shined with her more 1000 x more than Vicki Vale.

But frankly, I'm really tired of you and your negative comments toward me and about me, so I think it's just time to put you on ignore. It will be easier that way. Maybe you should do the same, because you can't refrain from insulting me over a fictional couple and telling me I "make things up". It's as if you follow me around just to get after me for my differing opinion.
Opinion is sayig you didn't feel it. That's your opinion. Implying that Bruce was repulsed by Selina's kisses is you making things up. That's not opinion. That's not opinion, that's you twisting facts and telling untruths.

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Old 09-25-2012, 08:37 AM   #28
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Don't worry, Kthevs pretty much does that to anybody who dosent think that Bruce/Selina is the greatest love story since Gone with the Wind.
False. I have no problem with saying that you hated Bruce/Selina. I have a problem with Zatanna implying that Bruce was disgusted with Selina's kisses. That's just a lie.

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Old 09-25-2012, 08:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

^ No...that's me taking the piss...hence the smilies at the end of the sentence, lol.

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Old 09-25-2012, 10:09 AM   #30
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In this movie? Both were pretty shallow and confusing...Talia's motive for sleeping with him, without the Damian subplot from the comic books, made little sense, unless as just one more little "screw you" in her mental torture plot. Selina didn't seem romantically connected until it was just sort of shoe-horned in at the end.

I guess Rachel by default, then. She had two movies, after all.
Rachel had a greater impact on Bruce's life than the other two did for sure. But she was a bore. But I think Talia was even more boring than Rachel.

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Old 09-25-2012, 10:23 AM   #31
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Honestly, if Nolan's Bruce has a "One true love", its definitely Rachel. Its just that she's a terribly written character.

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Old 09-25-2012, 10:35 AM   #32
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Honestly, if Nolan's Bruce has a "One true love", its definitely Rachel. Its just that she's a terribly written character.
poor Bruce,towards the end ---> unrequited passion/fantasy

Ying/Yang conception suits him better


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Old 09-25-2012, 10:45 AM   #33
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He knew Rachel the longest, but after they became adults, there was no even ground between them. She could never understand how broken he was, which is part of the reason why she chose Harvey.

As was said on the production notes by either Emma Thomas or Jonah Nolan (can't remember which it was), Selina is the yin to Bruce's yang. How often does a guy who dresses up in black and sneak out at night meet someone else who dresses up in black and sneaks out at night. The "so that's what that feels like" scene sums it up nicely.

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Old 09-25-2012, 11:57 AM   #34
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He knew Rachel the longest, but after they became adults, there was no even ground between them. She could never understand how broken he was, which is part of the reason why she chose Harvey.
I think Rachel did understand how broken he was, that's why she felt he would never stop needing to put on that costume and be Batman. Batman was an outlet for his pain and anger. She thought Batman had become his real face and Bruce Wayne was his mask.

That sounds like a very broken man to me.

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As was said on the production notes by either Emma Thomas or Jonah Nolan (can't remember which it was), Selina is the yin to Bruce's yang. How often does a guy who dresses up in black and sneak out at night meet someone else who dresses up in black and sneaks out at night. The "so that's what that feels like" scene sums it up nicely.
Agreed. I just wish we had more of those moments. Every scene with Selina was a joy. Anne was wonderful in her scenes with Christian. I just wish there had been more of them.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:07 PM   #35
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

I think Rachel understood Bruce a lot better than some of these shippers would like you to think.

Hell, from what was shown onscreen, Rachel seemed to understand Bruce better than Selina.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:07 PM   #36
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He knew Rachel the longest, but after they became adults, there was no even ground between them. She could never understand how broken he was, which is part of the reason why she chose Harvey.
In TDK, she already admited that Alfred know Bruce better than her(or anyone) at the time

and in DC world,Bruce can not marry his butler(so far)

so obviously,a lady must take that task in TDKR


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Old 09-25-2012, 12:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

The choices are really just between Rachel and Selina. Unfortunately, in the Nolanverse, Tatelia can't even be an option since everything was just an act.

Rachel is Bruce's one big love in the Nolanverse (or at least that was the intent even though we didn't really feel it) but I'm going with Selina on this this one. I think she understood Bruce more than Rachel because she's as broken as he was.


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Honestly, if Nolan's Bruce has a "One true love", its definitely Rachel. Its just that she's a terribly written character.
True.


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Agreed. I just wish we had more of those moments. Every scene with Selina was a joy. Anne was wonderful in her scenes with Christian. I just wish there had been more of them.
Most definitely. I like what we're given but I wish there was more.


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I think Rachel understood Bruce a lot better than some of these shippers would like you to think.

Hell, from what was shown onscreen, Rachel seemed to understand Bruce better than Selina.
A case can be made for BB Rachel but TDK Rachel doesn't IMO. I hate TDK Rachel.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:20 PM   #38
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

I don't know if I'd call Selina as broken as Bruce was. I don't know if I'd even call her broken at all. Bruce is wrestling with demons from his parents murder, Rachel's death, and the Harvey Dent conspiracy. I doubt Selina was so messed up that she could become a hobbling recluse who let herself waste away in loneliness.

Selina had her issues, mainly with the upper classes of Gotham, and her yearning to escape her criminal past and live a normal life (similar to Bruce's wish to live a normal life with Rachel in TDK). She was a street wise survivor. Stealing to making ends meet. But I never saw her as a haunted woman who was as damaged as Bruce was. Bruce was sitting on a mountain of rage and guilt and pain. Selina had a big chip on her shoulder.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #39
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

As someone who knew Bruce from childhood and knew him before and after his parents were killed, Rachel definitely understood Bruce. The difference is Selina and Bruce could identify with one another, which is the key. There's a mutual respect there, they're both warriors. Rachel and Bruce had more of a deep friendship that had potential to be more. Selina and Bruce had that flirty, kinetic kind of thing going on because their personalities were like bread and butter.

I don't think Rachel is his one true love, I think it's the love that could never be because of the choice he made to be Batman. Selina is his one true love in a post-Batman world.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:44 PM   #40
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I think Rachel understood Bruce a lot better than some of these shippers would like you to think.

Hell, from what was shown onscreen, Rachel seemed to understand Bruce better than Selina.
Not at all. She couldn't relate to him at all. There was no even ground between them. Harvey was the best fit for her, which is why she chose him and didn't even bother to tell Bruce in person. You can state your opinion all you want, but that's not what was shown on screen. What was shown on the screen was that she realized that she and Bruce were not meant to be. They weren't right for each other. And the whole thing with two people who knew each other as kids ending up together is so cliche. It happens way too much in books and movies.

Bruce and Selina, on the other hand seemed to be kindred spirits. They had many of the same issues. I mentioned the ying to his yang thing before. That sums it up nicely.

Rachel was just someone he could fight for. Selina is someone who he can fight side by side with.


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Old 09-25-2012, 12:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

I think Bruce, Rachel, and appeal to different parts of his struggle and being, just as his villains reflect specific parts of his Batman persona. Rachel connected to a Bruce who was the heirloom of the Wayne foundation, the man that he could've been had it not been vengeance altering their paths. Miranda connected to the orphan who saw his world ripped apart and the drive to fix it in any way he can. Selina appealed to his darker, adventurous side, the side that craved the dangers of the night even as he preached a normal slate.

Alas, two of these (Rachel and Miranda) are done in an unsatisfying fashion and cemented the trend of being the worst aspect of these films.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:48 PM   #42
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Selina is one of the characters that suffered imo because of the rushed pacing. I agree with those that don't think her pairing at the end felt very natural, saying that she's a better candidate than Rachel would have been as she wasn't able to handle Bruce's life as Batman and chose Dent. If we're going strictly by the title of the thread though, I'd say that in spite of my loathing of the character, Bruce had a deeper connection with Rachel without a doubt. Bruce's whole idealism, sense of justice and vision of a safer city is exactly the same as hers whereas Selina is a grey character. His romance with Selina doesn't really work so much based on his "deep" connection with her, more like "opposites attract" is how I always viewed it.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:50 PM   #43
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As someone who knew Bruce from childhood and knew him before and after his parents were killed, Rachel definitely understood Bruce. The difference is Selina and Bruce could identify with one another, which is the key. There's a mutual respect there, they're both warriors. Rachel and Bruce had more of a deep friendship that had potential to be more. Selina and Bruce had that flirty, kinetic kind of thing going on because their personalities were like bread and butter.

I don't think Rachel is his one true love, I think it's the love that could never be because of the choice he made to be Batman. Selina is his one true love in a post-Batman world.
Well said. A lot of similar stuff between Bruce an Selina, but also lots of differences. opposites attract.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:51 PM   #44
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I don't know if I'd call Selina as broken as Bruce was. I don't know if I'd even call her broken at all. Bruce is wrestling with demons from his parents murder, Rachel's death, and the Harvey Dent conspiracy. I doubt Selina was so messed up that she could become a hobbling recluse who let herself waste away in loneliness.

Selina had her issues, mainly with the upper classes of Gotham, and her yearning to escape her criminal past and live a normal life (similar to Bruce's wish to live a normal life with Rachel in TDK). She was a street wise survivor. Stealing to making ends meet. But I never saw her as a haunted woman who was as damaged as Bruce was. Bruce was sitting on a mountain of rage and guilt and pain. Selina had a big chip on her shoulder.
need some stories to fit in

such as----Her parents were murdered in cold blood when she was a little girl,thus her childhood could be a great misery.

She may got betrayed by someone during her youthhood and got sent behind the bar---->then she escaped from women's correctional at age 15-(not 16--TDKR p 216)

a life full of suffering


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Old 09-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #45
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need some stories to fit in

such as----Her parents could be murdered in cold blood when she was a little girl,thus her childhood could be a great misery.

She may got betrayed by someone durning her youthhood and got sent behind the bar---->then she escaped from women's correctional at age 15-(not 16--TDKR p 216)

a life full of suffering
She's broken in the sense that she too dresses up in black and does illegal stuff at night. She doesn't have to have gone through the same stuff that Bruce went through. They're not supposed to be mirror images of each other. She's the ying to his yang.

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Old 09-25-2012, 12:59 PM   #46
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Selina appealed to his darker, adventurous side, the side that craved the dangers of the night even as he preached a normal slate.
This is why I'll never fully understand how Selina "settled down" with Bruce. If anything as a love interest she's more suited to a "Batman Continues"-esque ending. Don't get me wrong the scene itself was nice and I would have hated for Bruce to be Batman forever but I don't think her character really works with that kind of ending as Catwoman is supposed to represent the side of Bruce that wants to be Batman imo.

It's an example of how with TDKR it felt to me like they were just throwing in a lot of ideas, even if some were ultimately incompatible with one another which makes the film as a whole sum feel awkward to me.

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Old 09-25-2012, 01:01 PM   #47
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This is why I'll never fully understand how Selina "settled down" with Bruce. If anything as a love interest she's more suited to a "Batman Continues"-esque ending. Don't get me wrong the scene itself was nice and I would have hated for Bruce to be Batman forever but I don't think her character really works with that kind of ending as Catwoman is supposed to represent the side of Bruce that wants to be Batman imo.
They kind of swtiched things up and made her want to quit being catwoman and just settle down. Unlike the comics, she wasn't catwoman for the thrill of it. She was catwoman because that's all she had at the time. "Once you've done what you had, they'll never let you do what you want to."

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Old 09-25-2012, 01:05 PM   #48
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While I don't think Selina was damaged in the exact same way Bruce was, I felt it was clear she wasn't just running from her past because a crimminal record looked bad. It seemed to me Selina wanted to escape from being defined by what she did or had to do in order to survive. So while I wouldn't say she was damaged , its clear she was unhappy. What I do like about Nolan's version of Selina is that she very well could have been the Selina from Batman Year One , so when she alludes to having to do things, you can infer that they were things she wasn't proud of.

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Old 09-25-2012, 01:12 PM   #49
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She's broken in the sense that she too dresses up in black and does illegal stuff at night. She doesn't have to have gone through the same stuff that Bruce went through. They're not supposed to be mirror images of each other. She's the ying to his yang.
agree, although she did 2 tours in prision as Bruce did during whole trilogy

perhaps in their married life,they can chat about which prison served better mess food


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Old 09-25-2012, 01:16 PM   #50
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They kind of swtiched things up and made her want to quit being catwoman and just settle down. Unlike the comics, she wasn't catwoman for the thrill of it. She was catwoman because that's all she had at the time. "Once you've done what you had, they'll never let you do what you want to."
That does make sense. I noticed Nolan's Catwoman was more of a survivor than a thrill-rider. I'll have to give the film another viewing to appreciate that. I'll say though that I disagree she was anywhere near broken like Bruce was, as has already been pointed out he had a setup devoted to how the events of TDK transformed him into a recluse, that is the very height of broken.


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