Who should be the villain in an Avengers sequel? (Poll)

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Chewy

When did this become a discussion about fan polls and what the fanboys talk about wanting next? Who gives a ****? 98% of what fans suggest for these superhero films is disturbingly terrible.

People like Loki. People are interested in seeing more of Loki. Loki recurring does not detract from the franchise, it enhances it. No one cares if people "rank" him below Magneto or Darth Vader. Honestly.

Outside of Tumblr, who's asking to see more of Loki? I love Hiddie and all that, but again, outside of the slashfic fangrrl circles, all I see in the forums and comments sections and blogosphere of the World Wide Internetz is guys saying "enough." Especially with Thor 2 commentary.

Hey look, I'm genuinely weary of this argument that keeps coming up again and again with you guys. It all comes back to you guys thinking that the best strategy for Marvel Studios is trilogy 'n' reboot, because it seems to be working *so* well for Warners and Sony and Fox...

You guys believe what you want, and welcome to it. As for me, I'll take Jim Starlin's word for it that Thanos is in GOTG and TA2, but nothing else. He's in a position to know this; you guys aren't.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Outside of Tumblr, who's asking to see more of Loki? I love Hiddie and all that, but again, outside of the slashfic fangrrl circles, all I see in the forums and comments sections and blogosphere of the World Wide Internetz is guys saying "enough." Especially with Thor 2 commentary.

The same fans who keep crying that they are done with Magneto and then praise each and every subsequent appearance.

That's just the way the internet works.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Chewy

The same fans who keep crying that they are done with Magneto and then praise each and every subsequent appearance.

That's just the way the internet works.

We'll see how critics and general audiences respond to "moar Loki" next year. But as far as "replay value," Loki has a huge advantage over Thanos in that Hiddie is a bona fide hunk, with lots of female (and male) fans drooling over him. Thanos? Ehhh.....not so much.....

[jaqua99]

it doesn't matter if its a good idea or not. It seems pretty likely that it IS going to happen now anyway.

[roach]

Wait Loki is gonna be the villain in Avengers 2????
do you have a link or something to prove that?

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

An opening night theater packed with Batman and Nolan fans, no doubt. Hardly representative of the wider moviegoing public. Go see TDKR at a dollar theater about 6 months from now and see how many cheers they get. Also thanks for the spoilers.

And Loki's not dominating any polls because he's a great villain, he's doing it because the ladies are obsessed with Tom Hiddleston.

So, the millions of people in theatres opening night are less representative of the general public than six guys in an old theatre who have seen the movie three times already? That's a bit obtuse. The TDK franchise isn't breaking records with Batman/Nolan fans, it's breaking records because the whole general public goes to see them opening night/day. I could see if you said that opening weekend saturday night would be better representative of the general public, but generally, crowd reactions are the same, because the same thirty million people watching this one are the same thirty million people who saw the previous film in the franchise. Being a Batman or Nolan fan doesn't make Scarecrow important, watching Batman Begins does, something millions and millions of general moviegoers have done. Sorry about the spoilers.

You can make up whatever reason you want to to explain why Loki's dominating in the polls, the end result is: the idea that people only go to see the heroes is absolute balderdash.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Outside of Tumblr, who's asking to see more of Loki? I love Hiddie and all that, but again, outside of the slashfic fangrrl circles, all I see in the forums and comments sections and blogosphere of the World Wide Internetz is guys saying "enough." Especially with Thor 2 commentary.

Hey look, I'm genuinely weary of this argument that keeps coming up again and again with you guys. It all comes back to you guys thinking that the best strategy for Marvel Studios is trilogy 'n' reboot, because it seems to be working *so* well for Warners and Sony and Fox...

You guys believe what you want, and welcome to it. As for me, I'll take Jim Starlin's word for it that Thanos is in GOTG and TA2, but nothing else. He's in a position to know this; you guys aren't.

This again!??! How do you know what we're thinking? Telepathy!?!?!

Starlin isn't a Marvel Studios executive, he's definitely not in a position to know of Marvel Studios' plans, but hey, link the quote anyway, 'd love to see it.

On the issue you keep skirting, let's pretend no one's asking to see Loki again. They didn't ask for Magneto again, after all. My question is still: When has a great villain returning ever been a turn off? Ever? When has what you say would happen with Thanos ever, ever happened?

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

You can make up whatever reason you want to to explain why Loki's dominating in the polls, the end result is: the idea that people only go to see the heroes is absolute balderdash.

Which polls is he "dominating" in? Aside from anything on Tumblr and anything inside your own head, can you link any polls that list Loki as a fan favorite villain?

This again!??! How do you know what we're thinking? Telepathy!?!?!

Starlin isn't a Marvel Studios executive, he's definitely not in a position to know of Marvel Studios' plans, but hey, link the quote anyway, 'd love to see it.

Sure. It's been all over the internetz, including right here at good ol' SHH, but since you're out of the loop:

http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/con...and-avengers-2

http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/con...s-and-avengers

Starlin was miffed when he saw Thanos in TA1, and pretty much threatened legal action against Marvel for using his character without consulting him first. So they had a tete-a-tete with him this summer, and at Montreal, Starlin's feathers were unruffled and he told fans there that Marvel had told him Thanos would be in TA2 and GOTG.

On the issue you keep skirting, let's pretend no one's asking to see Loki again. They didn't ask for Magneto again, after all. My question is still: When has a great villain returning ever been a turn off? Ever? When has what you say would happen with Thanos ever, ever happened?

And I ask you again: when did Thanos turn into a great villain? At this point, Thanos is known only to a handful of us geeks who frequent comic shops and very, very, very little else. (There was a line on one blog recently that was pretty good, that went something like: "There was that post-credit scene in Avengers, when all the fans in the audience started cheering and pretending that they knew who the big purple guy was.") You have NO inkling that general audiences are going to embrace Thanos yet, let alone turn him into a "great villain." For all we know, audiences might get sick of him after five *minutes,* let alone five freakin' movies, like some of you are proposing.

[Whiskey Tango]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

So, the millions of people in theatres opening night are less representative of the general public than six guys in an old theatre who have seen the movie three times already? That's a bit obtuse. The TDK franchise isn't breaking records with Batman/Nolan fans, it's breaking records because the whole general public goes to see them opening night/day. I could see if you said that opening weekend saturday night would be better representative of the general public, but generally, crowd reactions are the same, because the same thirty million people watching this one are the same thirty million people who saw the previous film in the franchise. Being a Batman or Nolan fan doesn't make Scarecrow important, watching Batman Begins does, something millions and millions of general moviegoers have done. Sorry about the spoilers.

You can make up whatever reason you want to to explain why Loki's dominating in the polls, the end result is: the idea that people only go to see the heroes is absolute balderdash.

Stop trying to spin crap. You know damn well that only big Batman fans are going to start cheering when ****ing Scarecrow shows up onscreen. The GA might recognize him but they sure as hell aren't going to cheer.

Your other bit of nonsense is wrong too, even though I never said any such thing, so you ought to direct it at whoever did.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Which polls is he "dominating" in?

the one at CBM lol. Science!

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Which polls is he "dominating" in? Aside from anything on Tumblr and anything inside your own head, can you link any polls that list Loki as a fan favorite villain?

I already said why I won't do that, remember? It sounds like you're already familiar with Loki having a following. Can you link anything that says Loki isn't a fan favorite villain? If not, lets agree to disagree on that point.

Sure. It's been all over the internetz, including right here at good ol' SHH, but since you're out of the loop:

http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/exclusive-thanos-confirmed-guardians-galaxy-movie-and-avengers-2

http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/marvel-and-jim-starlin-are-talks-over-thanos-and-avengers

Starlin was miffed when he saw Thanos in TA1, and pretty much threatened legal action against Marvel for using his character without consulting him first. So they had a tete-a-tete with him this summer, and at Montreal, Starlin's feathers were unruffled and he told fans there that Marvel had told him Thanos would be in TA2 and GOTG.

But nothing about Thanos being in 'nothing else' as you claim. I'm not sure why you brought it up if it doesn't support your statement or point.

And I ask you again: when did Thanos turn into a great villain? At this point, Thanos is known only to a handful of us geeks who frequent comic shops and very, very, very little else. (There was a line on one blog recently that was pretty good, that went something like: "There was that post-credit scene in Avengers, when all the fans in the audience started cheering and pretending that they knew who the big purple guy was.") You have NO inkling that general audiences are going to embrace Thanos yet, let alone turn him into a "great villain." For all we know, audiences might get sick of him after five *minutes,* let alone five freakin' movies, like some of you are proposing.

Nah, son, you've never asked this before. And this telepathy you have, reading the minds of all the fans in the audience is so incredible. Is it also what gives you the inklings about what villains the audience will like that no one else has?

Still no sign of anyone ever getting fed up with a recurring villain. I really wonder where you got this idea.

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

Stop trying to spin crap. You know damn well that only big Batman fans are going to start cheering when ****ing Scarecrow shows up onscreen. The GA might recognize him but they sure as hell aren't going to cheer.

Why not? They didn't like him in BB and TDK? To them he was just window dressing that elicits no emotional response?

Your other bit of nonsense is wrong too, even though I never said any such thing, so you ought to direct it at whoever did.

the one at CBM lol. Science!

Edit: You're right, it was directed at Sam, my bad, but it does "scientifically" address his statement that no one cares about the villains. Chewy below better addresses his later statement that the general audience doesn't care about the villains.

[Chewy]

Why does this discussion keep veering back to internet polls? Who cares about the internet polls? It's pretty safe to say internet polls are indicative of exactly nothing

People like Loki as a character. I'm not referring to internet polls here- people, in general, like Loki as a character. i could not care less what's being said on tumblr or in the comments at AICN or CBM. They are indicative of exactly nothing. People speak with their money, and the big box office increase Thor 2 will get over Thor 1 is going to say it all next year - people who didn't even know who Thor and Loki were a year and a half ago really liked how both were portrayed.

And that's what it comes down to. People - general audience members, not the fans who vote on CBM polls - don't know who the majority of these characters are until they're exposed to them. Joker didn't become "iconic" until he was featured in the 60s show. Lex Luthor didn't become "iconic" until he was featured in the Reeve movies. Venom didn't become well-known until he was featured in the 90's Spidey show, and he still is only popular with the kids who grew up on that show. Magneto didn't become "iconic" until he was featured in the 90's cartoon and the X-Men movies. And Loki didn't become "iconic" until about 5 months ago.

So, yes, Thanos is not currently a popular character. He has not been given the multimedia push the above have. He is about to. if he is portrayed properly - and I have no reason to think he won't be - then yes, he will become a popular character. He's already a great one, in my opinion. He just needed the exposure he's about to receive to really break out.

And I'm not arguing that he will be in Avengers 3. I have no more an idea what Marvel is going to do than anyone else. On my end this discussion has always been about whether or not he could be in Avengers 3. Because people keep going on about how he's "not a top 3 Avengers villain in the comics!" or how he's not currently a mainstream character or how he's not complex. All of the above is nonsense, and means nothing in terms of adapting the comics. All that matters is how James Gunn and Joss Whedon write him, and how the actor portrays him. If it's well done, people will like the character. If it's not, they won't. How fans on the internet "rank!" him is irrelevant.

Also, Starlin saying that Thanos will be in GotG and TA2 doesn't mean he won't be in anything else. Not sure why someone would read that into his statement.

[jaqua99]

why are you arguing over this.

I mean Kevin Fiege saying that, WHILE TALKING ABOUT Thanos, that Phase 1 had things unfold that lead to the conclusion of phase 1, he sees phase 2 unfolding in a similar way, but these things wont just lead to the conclusion of phase 2, but of phase 3 as well. I don't know about you guys, but that is basically confirmation that Thanos will be around for a while in the MCU, not just phase 2. There really is nothing to argue about. I don't get how this can be perceived as something else. It doesn't matter if fans are going to take to it kindly or not, it doesn't matter what some of you are just, oh so sure of how the audience will react. It doesn't matter, because its most likely going to happen.

and Sam, for your " you guys thinking that the best strategy for Marvel Studios is trilogy 'n' reboot" I know you are talking about me.

First of all, that is not what I think, but what if it was? What makes your opinion so much better than ours?

I don't think that is what they should do. All I think, is that this specific avengers franchise should be kept to 3 or 4 movies, or basically until the current actors don't play the roles anymore. That's all. I personally think recasting characters is a mistake. That's my opinion. Just because it differs from some others, doesn't make it wrong. Which is what some people here seem to think, not just in this discussion, but in anything.

[Whiskey Tango]

Kang is way cooler than Thanos anyway.

[cherokeesam]

Starlin's statement "confirms" just GOTG and TA2 easily enough. All you have to do is use common sense:

1) Starlin was upset that Marvel used Thanos without his permission. He was ready to sue.
2) Marvel sat down for talks with Starlin. Now Starlin is happy again, and he knows Thanos will be in GOTG and TA2. Why? Because they're now paying the residuals he's owed....why else? The last thing they want is Thanos getting held up in trademark court for years of legal wrangling.

So if Marvel intends to use Thanos beyond GOTG and TA2, they damn well would've informed Starlin (and his lawyers), or else there'd be hell to pay. Cappice?

[Chewy]

Or maybe they aren't going to pay him for movies they aren't actively developing yet?

Do you think Stan Lee's check for Avengers 3 is in the mail?

[DrCosmic]

Yes, let's. And let's ask him how many Avengers movies there will be. Surely he must know, or else there'll be years of legal wrangling - hell to pay!

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

The last thing they want is Thanos getting held up in trademark court for years of legal wrangling.

Movie companies address this by putting an "and future projects" clause in contracts. That's why Starlin didn't say 'and nothing else' as you claimed he did, because movie contracts aren't written that way, so that's not what he or his lawyers would be told. And even if they had told him of any long term plans for Thanos... why would you think that he would feel compelled to share MS long term plans with us, as opposed to the other way around?

[Adamantium]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Do you think Stan Lee's check for Avengers 3 is in the mail?

If it is I wish I got paid like that!

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

Kang is way cooler than Thanos anyway.

I'm the minority, but just like Black Panther, I just don't like Kang too much. I like him as a villain, but he is not someone I would get excited about seeing. Like Thanos, or Bill, or Ultron.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Starlin's statement "confirms" just GOTG and TA2 easily enough. All you have to do is use common sense:

1) Starlin was upset that Marvel used Thanos without his permission. He was ready to sue.
2) Marvel sat down for talks with Starlin. Now Starlin is happy again, and he knows Thanos will be in GOTG and TA2. Why? Because they're now paying the residuals he's owed....why else? The last thing they want is Thanos getting held up in trademark court for years of legal wrangling.

So if Marvel intends to use Thanos beyond GOTG and TA2, they damn well would've informed Starlin (and his lawyers), or else there'd be hell to pay. Cappice?

Yet you don't address Feige's comments about some things carrying over from phase 2 and phase 3.

Obviously Marvel would contact Starlin if they planned on using him beyond Phase 2 Sam. But there is no reason for them to do so now.

these movies beyond phase 3 are not confirmed, guardians and TA2 ARE. There is no point in having Starlin sign off on movies that haven't technically been green lit yet. If feige plans on using Thanos beyond phase 2, I am sure they will then again, contact Starlin. But for now, there is NO reason for them to contact Starlin about Phase 3 movies, because no phase 3 movies haven't been confirmed. Capice?

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by chewy

or maybe they aren't going to pay him for movies they aren't actively developing yet?

Do you think stan lee's check for avengers 3 is in the mail?

exactly!

[Adamantium]

Suddenly I'm in the mood to watch a mob movie, unfortunately I don't own any. Oh well, I'll just keep tuning into the thread.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Or maybe they aren't going to pay him for movies they aren't actively developing yet?

Do you think Stan Lee's check for Avengers 3 is in the mail?

So suddenly Phase III films aren't in development yet....? Is that the new tack for the Trilogy N Reboot Mob now --- the MCU is going to end with Phase II in 2015? Marvel Studios suddenly has no plans for 2016 and beyond? Nice grasping at straws, guys. (P.S.: how will you guys get your "trilogy" if there's no Phase III....?)

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I'm the minority, but just like Black Panther, I just don't like Kang too much. I like him as a villain, but he is not someone I would get excited about seeing. Like Thanos, or Bill, or Ultron.



Yet you don't address Feige's comments about some things carrying over from phase 2 and phase 3.

Yes, Jaqua, yes, I have. Several times. *You* choose to read Feige's comment as "Thanos is carrying over from Phase 2 to Phase 3." His quote, however, doesn't mention Thanos at all....he says that the seeds of Phase III (wait, what...? I thought that didn't exist....) will be planted in Phase II. My interpretation, again, is a very simple read of that statement: we'll see hints at the NEW Phase III villain(s) in our Phase II movies. In other words, seeds that hint at, say, Ultron or Kang or MOE or Kree-Skrull or Hypno-Hustler or Paste-Pot Pete. Cappice?

[KangConquers]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

Kang is way cooler than Thanos anyway.

Thank you.

[KangConquers]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Why does this discussion keep veering back to internet polls? Who cares about the internet polls? It's pretty safe to say internet polls are indicative of exactly nothing.

Oded Fehr as Tony Stark. FTW.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

So suddenly Phase III films aren't in development yet....?

Exactly. Not in development yet. Stop being obtuse.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Exactly. Not in development yet. Stop being obtuse.

"Yet" having exactly no bearing on Marvel's talks with Starlin about Thanos. Even if Thanos is on the drawing board for TA3, don't you think they'd at least mention that to Starlin? "We'll tell him about using his character for GOTG and TA2, but keep quiet about his big scene in TA3." Don't think so. Do you?

[KangConquers]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

"Yet" having exactly no bearing on Marvel's talks with Starlin about Thanos. Even if Thanos is on the drawing board for TA3, don't you think they'd at least mention that to Starlin? "We'll tell him about using his character for GOTG and TA2, but keep quiet about his big scene in TA3." Don't think so. Do you?

I imagine planning for a film that is 6-7 years away is very basic and skeletal. There are 10-12 films between then and now in the MCU, and I really doubt that anything they're currently planning will turn out exactly how they originally envisioned it.