The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

[spidermanJLA!~]

Does this thread count Batman Returns?

[Mace Dolex]

Originally Posted by Reevz666

here it is in color

Awesome I like the slight hint of stubble on Keaton and his mean pout, this photoshoot is one of my favorites as you can see the suit in better lighting pointing out the details and leathery texture.

[TheWatcher]

Batman(89) comes on Encore almost everyday.

Just watched it with my dad, who knows EVERY single word.

One question though, how did those three thugs get to the top of the church? Were they there the whole time?

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Batman(89) comes on Encore almost everyday.

Just watched it with my dad, who knows EVERY single word.

One question though, how did those three thugs get to the top of the church? Were they there the whole time?

The comic book adaptation fills in the blank showing Jokers goons in the back walking into the cathedral when Jokers with Vicky outside. There are more explanations tho. Either Jokers goons were planted there beforehand to observe (the cathedral would be the best spot) or look out for Batman or police backup, or simply quickly followed Joker in off camera

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

The comic book adaptation fills in the blank showing Jokers goons in the back walking into the cathedral when Jokers with Vicky outside.

The comic adaption is different to the movie in so many ways. In that scene alone in it Joker doesn't make Vicki slip with the trick fake hand, Batman and Vicki climb up to the safety of the ledge while Joker is escaping on the helicopter ladder, the stone gargoyle attached to Joker's leg shatters the ledge when he falls off the ladder causing Batman and Vicki to fall, too.

I don't think the comic book adaptions are canon with the movie. Too many differences. That's why they're called adaptions.

There are more explanations tho. Either Jokers goons were planted there beforehand to observe (the cathedral would be the best spot)

Unless they had binoculars it would be very difficult to see clearly what was going on down on the streets from that great height. The shots in the movie when they showed the great height Joker was dangling from showed that. It would be easier, not to mention more time effective to be on a shorter building in case they were needed down below.

or simply quickly followed Joker in off camera

We'd have seen them after during that long climbing the stairs montage. Joker was alone. It was just him, Batman, and Vicki.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

The comic book adaptation fills in the blank showing Jokers goons in the back walking into the cathedral when Jokers with Vicky outside. There are more explanations tho. Either Jokers goons were planted there beforehand to observe (the cathedral would be the best spot) or look out for Batman or police backup, or simply quickly followed Joker in off camera

Fanwank that doesn't even make sense.

[Macphisto]

Gotta have a back-up plan.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Fanwank that doesn't even make sense.

Fanwank? Perhaps, but we apply it to all the Batman movies when theres no explanation given. But I also dont see it as so unimaginable that the Cathedral would be Jokers emergency escape plan before hand, or that he placed the goons there to watch if the cops are on their way. Blinking cop lights in big mobilization force are quite visible from far away

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Ive come to terms with the fact that its a plothole, most films have them and they dont stop the film from being great or loved in my eyes.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

Fanwank? Perhaps, but we apply it to all the Batman movies when theres no explanation given. But I also dont see it as so unimaginable that the Cathedral would be Jokers emergency escape plan before hand, or that he placed the goons there to watch if the cops are on their way. Blinking cop lights in big mobilization force are quite visible from far away

What an emergency escape plan. Climb the highest building of Gotham City to reach a chopper. And in the movie the whole escape seemed very spontaneous.

Wasn't there even someone here that explained the absence of the police by the Joker poisoning the coffee offered at the police station?

Having a favorite movie from one's childhood is a nice thing but when you've grown up you should just notice flaws that are definitely flaws. Batman (89) is an entertaining movie, but it isn't an overly accurate depiction of Batman nor is it a very well-written movie.

[CConn]

Personally, I never give any mind to those types of "plot holes" (personally, I wouldn't even call them plot holes). If you need such specificities explained to you on screen, then you're really missing the point of the movie, IMO.

And that goes for all movies, not just B89.

[TheWatcher]

It doesn't change anything about the movie. It's still in my top five all time.

It just bugged me.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Having a favorite movie from one's childhood is a nice thing but when you've grown up you should just notice flaws that are definitely flaws. Batman (89) is an entertaining movie, but it isn't an overly accurate depiction of Batman nor is it a very well-written movie.

Personally, I'd call it a very accurate depiction of Batman. In a lot of aspects, he does a better job at characterizing Batman than either the Nolan movies, or even comics of the past 20 years or so have. Sure it misses on some points, but every recent interpretation of Batman I've read misses somewhere.

But yes, the writing takes a backseat to every other technical aspect of the film. And it's those technical aspects that make me hold it in such high regard, not just as a childhood favorite, but as a legitimately wonderfully made film.

[mikey1974]

you want plotholes? i'll give you plotholes!

- where does all of Batman's stuff come from: Batmobile,Batwing,Batsuit,etc. it's all just there. who made them? Alfred?! it'd be hard to kinda get someone to make a frigging BAT-SHAPED JET FIGHTER for you and still keep your identity quiet,you know? i mean, was Pakistan manufacturing those in the 80's or something?

- the Joker FRIGGING ANNOUNCES where he will be and when on live TV, and no cops bother to show up? not even Gordon??!!

- why isn't the Joker street pizza after a fall from that height?

- the whole armor on the Batmobile thing is completely ridiculous. i mean,in respect of where it comes from. don't even get me started on the magically appearing from thin air round bombs on the hubcaps.

- how do the Joker and his men survive entering the museum? you can clearly still see the poison gas still in there when they open the doors. it couldn't have disappeared THAT quickly!

now, i still love the movie. just saying this is the reason you shouldn't worry about such things and just try and enjoy the movie for what it is. cause if you overanalyze it,you'll find a lot wrong with almost every movie.

[spidermanJLA!~]

Amen!

[TheWatcher]

Originally Posted by mikey1974

you want plotholes? i'll give you plotholes!

- where does all of Batman's stuff come from: Batmobile,Batwing,Batsuit,etc. it's all just there. who made them? Alfred?! it'd be hard to kinda get someone to make a frigging BAT-SHAPED JET FIGHTER for you and still keep your identity quiet,you know? i mean, was Pakistan manufacturing those in the 80's or something?
Does it really need to be explained? They didn't go in depth on his training, do they have to tell the audience that Bruce is able to make this stuff with or without the help of someone like Fox?
- the Joker FRIGGING ANNOUNCES where he will be and when on live TV, and no cops bother to show up? not even Gordon??!!
Got me on this one. No wonder crime is so bad in Gotham.
- why isn't the Joker street pizza after a fall from that height?
Maybe.... HE ISN'T DEAD DUN DUN DUNNNNNN.
- the whole armor on the Batmobile thing is completely ridiculous. i mean,in respect of where it comes from. don't even get me started on the magically appearing from thin air round bombs on the hubcaps.
See the first one.
- how do the Joker and his men survive entering the museum? you can clearly still see the poison gas still in there when they open the doors. it couldn't have disappeared THAT quickly!
Pretty sure it dispersed. If it didn't maybe Joker gave them something to make them immune.
now, i still love the movie. just saying this is the reason you shouldn't worry about such things and just try and enjoy the movie for what it is. cause if you overanalyze it,you'll find a lot wrong with almost every movie.

CConn, that first paragraph perfectly explains it.

I'm trying to explain it in bold.

[The Guard]

you want plotholes? i'll give you plotholes!

- where does all of Batman's stuff come from: Batmobile,Batwing,Batsuit,etc. it's all just there. who made them? Alfred?! it'd be hard to kinda get someone to make a frigging BAT-SHAPED JET FIGHTER for you and still keep your identity quiet,you know? i mean, was Pakistan manufacturing those in the 80's or something?

It really shouldn't take much, if any imagination, to see that since Bruce Wayne is wealthy, that's probably how he affords the toys he has. The point of the gadgets in BATMAN is that he has them, and that they're a bit varied and absurd.

- the Joker FRIGGING ANNOUNCES where he will be and when on live TV, and no cops bother to show up? not even Gordon??!!

Yeah, it's a bit of an oversight, but then, the cops weren't really the focal point of the film (or the scene). The Joker shows up, and within a matter of minutes, there is chaos everywhere. Its not outside the realm of possibility that there ARE cops in that chaotic crowd sequence, but what were they supposed to do? Shoot up streets full of civilians, against The Joker's men, who are armed? They ARE shown to respond pretty quickly after Batman disposes of the Joker's gas and the crowds have dispersed.

- why isn't the Joker street pizza after a fall from that height?

Because it's a PG-13 movie, and because sometimes people can fall from great heights and don't splatter all over the place.

- the whole armor on the Batmobile thing is completely ridiculous. i mean,in respect of where it comes from. don't even get me started on the magically appearing from thin air round bombs on the hubcaps.

It's supposed to be a bit ridiculous. It's scifi tech.

- how do the Joker and his men survive entering the museum? you can clearly still see the poison gas still in there when they open the doors. it couldn't have disappeared THAT quickly!

Seems the gas isn't concentrated enough to create an issue when they enter.

These aren't really plotholes.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by mikey1974

- the Joker FRIGGING ANNOUNCES where he will be and when on live TV, and no cops bother to show up? not even Gordon??!!

I think this is the only one that's explained in the film without actually explaining it. The regime of crime in Gotham and the corrupt police force (aside from Gordon) are a thread that runs throughout the film. I think that it's easy to deduce that the police either wouldn't really care, or the GCPD didn't have enough men for such a task... or the fact that the Joker had just been on his reign of terror with the Smilex in Gotham... so maybe they just said the hell with it, let the people fend for themselves? The evidence (if there is any) is that the only time you really see a solid police force assembled is at the very end of the movie with the bat-signal. I think that is just another indicator of how the police force was a "useless entity" up until the emergence of Batman.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by mikey1974

you want plotholes? i'll give you plotholes!

- where does all of Batman's stuff come from: Batmobile,Batwing,Batsuit,etc. it's all just there. who made them? Alfred?! it'd be hard to kinda get someone to make a frigging BAT-SHAPED JET FIGHTER for you and still keep your identity quiet,you know? i mean, was Pakistan manufacturing those in the 80's or something?

That is ridiculous. For decades it was explained in the comics that Batman himself simply made them and thats the same way in the comics. In Returns we can further see that he fixes batmobile himself

- the Joker FRIGGING ANNOUNCES where he will be and when on live TV, and no cops bother to show up? not even Gordon??!!

That is indeed tricky, but lets not forget he didnt say WHERE hes gonna be, otherwise people wouldve been lined up since the morning to get money, and cops would be there as well. While some disregard any official extra material, comic book adaptation shows few cops in the crowd who simply lay low cause theres no way they would handle all Jokers goons armed to the teeth with tommyguns and call for backup. Full mobilization of police force comes exactly 7 minutyes after the float first appears onscreen. Thats even faster than real life

- why isn't the Joker street pizza after a fall from that height?

Cause its a PG 13 movie from late 80s which already pushed the envelope more than most others at the time as far as graphic violence?

- the whole armor on the Batmobile thing is completely ridiculous. i mean,in respect of where it comes from. don't even get me started on the magically appearing from thin air round bombs on the hubcaps.

Its a comic book movie, and it looked great. You can sacrifice great designs or ideas for nitpickers who want everything to match real world and reality. That misses the point of movies, especially fantasy ones

- how do the Joker and his men survive entering the museum? you can clearly still see the poison gas still in there when they open the doors. it couldn't have disappeared THAT quickly!

As someone already said, it dispersed already to the point it wasnt deadly. People in the museum were completely immersed in the dense clouds of gas

now, i still love the movie. just saying this is the reason you shouldn't worry about such things and just try and enjoy the movie for what it is. cause if you overanalyze it,you'll find a lot wrong with almost every movie.

Amen

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Ponyboy

I think this is the only one that's explained in the film without actually explaining it. The regime of crime in Gotham and the corrupt police force (aside from Gordon) are a thread that runs throughout the film. I think that it's easy to deduce that the police either wouldn't really care, or the GCPD didn't have enough men for such a task... or the fact that the Joker had just been on his reign of terror with the Smilex in Gotham... so maybe they just said the hell with it, let the people fend for themselves? The evidence (if there is any) is that the only time you really see a solid police force assembled is at the very end of the movie with the bat-signal. I think that is just another indicator of how the police force was a "useless entity" up until the emergence of Batman.

I don't buy that at all. I don't see the Mayor, Dent and Gordon passing up the chance to net the Joker or give him the chance to kill more people. If they thought they had a chance to catch him then they would have been there ready and waiting with every Cop they had. Even call in the National Guard if they had to. Joker said he would do it at midnight, so they had a time frame to be get prepared.

He said he was going to dump money on the crowd. Unless there's crowds of people on every street in Gotham every midnight, they knew he meant the area around City Hall where the 200th celebration was supposed to happen. After all he said he wanted the 200th celebration to commence even though the Mayor just said they were going to postpone it.

It doesn't make any sense, just like the Joker henchmen already stashed up in the top of the cathedral of all places.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I don't buy that at all. I don't see the Mayor, Dent and Gordon passing up the chance to net the Joker or give him the chance to kill more people. If they thought they had a chance to catch him then they would have been there ready and waiting with every Cop they had. Even call in the National Guard if they had to. Joker said he would do it at midnight, so they had a time frame to be get prepared.

Napier & Grissom and that whole "crime syndicate" were all in league with one another. The police force didn't have the power to topple them. That's why they brought in Harvey Dent in the first place... things were just starting to turn (hopefully) and then with Joker's emergence? They were left a bit helpless. At least I think that's what you're supposed to gather from their relative impotency.

Maybe the National Guard doesn't exist in the DCU? Maybe Gordon and the powers that be were going to let Batman deal with the Joker, and they cleared the streets accordingly? Maybe I'm making excuses for plot holes, but you have to resign to the fact that they are there, and while there are ways of explaining them, the world in that film is not the same world we live in. It's a movie about a fictional place, so give it a little leeway eh?

[Young Superman]

This manip looks awesome.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I want that figure so bad, but that manip right there is a perfect example on why the blue and gray wouldnt have worked in live action.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Ponyboy

Napier & Grissom and that whole "crime syndicate" were all in league with one another. The police force didn't have the power to topple them. That's why they brought in Harvey Dent in the first place... things were just starting to turn (hopefully) and then with Joker's emergence?

The Police didn't have the dirt on them to nail them. It wasn't about power. Harvey Dent was a D.A. not man power. Isn't that what Dent's approach was about, targeting the businesses suspected for fronting for Grissom. Napier said to Grissom Dent was sniffing around their front companies. That's why he was panicking about the Axis connection. "If he ties us in with Axis Chemicals we're dead and buried. We should move immediately". Getting the evidence to nail them.

Maybe the National Guard doesn't exist in the DCU?

I don't see why it wouldn't.

Maybe Gordon and the powers that be were going to let Batman deal with the Joker, and they cleared the streets accordingly?

But the streets were not cleared. It was teeming with people. Since the Police showed up after the event (typical movie cliche of the Cops showing up late), they were obviously not leaving it for Batman to handle. Which would be rather stupid anyway since Batman had not won their favor by this point. They were still dubious about him.

Maybe I'm making excuses for plot holes, but you have to resign to the fact that they are there, and while there are ways of explaining them, the world in that film is not the same world we live in. It's a movie about a fictional place, so give it a little leeway eh?

Just because it's in a fictional world doesn't mean that all logic ceases. If we're in a world where a D.A. can nail the crime, where corrupt Cops can exist, then the Mayor, Police Commissioner, and the crime tackling D.A. taking steps to nail the biggest threat to the City after he's publicly handed himself to them on a plate is not an unreasonable expectation. The press managed to be there to snap photos. The Police should have been there, too, waiting for Joker.

The movie has plot holes. That's just one of them.

[Doc Ock]

Originally Posted by CConn

Personally, I'd call it a very accurate depiction of Batman. In a lot of aspects, he does a better job at characterizing Batman than either the Nolan movies, or even comics of the past 20 years or so have. Sure it misses on some points, but every recent interpretation of Batman I've read misses somewhere.

I agree completely, in fact i'd go as far to say that Batman 89 and Returns are possibly my favorite and IMO the best interpretations of Batman of all-time. With BTAS being pretty up there if not equal.