Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

No parole for guys already in jail doesn't keep crooks off the streets. Dent Act is dumb and makes no sense.

The Dent Act reads..

"One of the main features of the Act is the creation of stricter penalties, including the denial of parole, for those who commit any crime deemed as a part or function of a larger criminal enterprise. This will close the loophole that existed in the previous laws that hampered the city's ability to stamp out organized crime."

It's not just those who are already in jail. Anybody who gets picked up post-tdk who are attached to a bigger criminal enterprise are denied parole. In the beginning of TDKR Gordon is talked about as a war-hero. It seems like he was responsible for making the city pretty clean through the years. Garcia even says at "Harvey Dent Day" that you cant just wipe out ALL crime, but the Act is a massive help. A huge help when it comes to the big league stuff in the city. And that's what Nolans version of Batman was focused on. Not the random kids who are robbing folks from time to time. Or the odd murder in the Narrows. Perhaps Batman tended to some of that early in his career, but Nolan made a point of only showing Batman going after the mob and the big time freaks who put the city in jeopardy. Bruce targeted the mob mainly because that's who made the city what it was. It's what lead to Joe Chill killing his parents. With the mafia wiped clean, the chances of more Chill's committing those acts get reduced. The rogues were tied up in that whole mess, some of them were created by Batmans appearance. But Bruce was always after the big stuff.

Batman was not needed in those 8 years because the Dent Act got whatever was left of the mob OFF the streets.

It's pretty simple to me why Batman wasn't needed.

[The Joker]

Fudgie, this Dent Act you're being quoted there came from the viral marketing campaign, not the movie itself. You probably know that already but just in case.

It also still makes no sense even what is being quoted there because one cannot be arrested and convicted and sent to prison unless there's evidence or proof of a crime or crimes committed by said person. So unless the mob left all their dirty laundry out in the air for any ordinary rookie Cop to see, the Dent Act is useless against them.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Would the stuff they got from Lau have helped bring down the majority of the bosses? I was under the impression that some of the men in the meeting @ Maroni's were trusted lieutenants, not necessarily leaders.

Dear me, it seems we're crashing this thread...with no survivors.

[BatLobsterRises]

We're led to believe in TDK that the entire mob pooled their money together, which is how Dent is able to build a RICO case against them. So I gotta assume that includes all the bosses.

Now that I think about it, various mob families all pooling their money together with one accountant is pretty much just as outlandish and fantasy-based as a legislation that could cripple the mob in one fell swoop.

Jonah Nolan worked in tandem with 42 Entertainment when they were developing a lot of the viral stuff for TDK. Wouldn't be surprised if either he or someone close to the production provided some guidelines for the TDKR viral marketing. I wasn't even aware of that when I saw the film though. All the mayor says is it gave law enforcement teeth in their fight against the mob. We never learn about the criminals being denied parole until Blake brings it up halfway through the film. The way it was presented in the movie, it seemed to imply this was just another thing the Dent Act did, not THE thing. Blake says "denied parole...under the Dent Act", which sounds like it's one statute of many. A piece of legislation like that could have any serious impact would have to be super dense and long. It could be any number of things, I'm getting bored just imagining it. It could include legalized racial profiling and all sorts of extreme measures. It's not impossible to fathom. It's just not stuff that needed to be spelled out in the movie because this was never meant to be a a quasi-police procedural like its predecessor.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The way I see it, Gotham is like a volcano. It's been bubbling under the falseness of the Dent Act, and ready to erupt when we catch up with the story in TDKR. I got no indication that your average, every day Gothamite was happier now than they were 8 years ago. Only that the police were free from mob corruption, but still not immune to political corruption. The mayor is standing up there on the podium praising Harvey Dent and Jim Gordon, while secretly planning to fire Gordon for political points. The Senator is more concerned with banging the cocktail waitress than celebrating Harvey. Daggett using the event as an opportunity to schmooze with Miranda Tate, on the very property of the guy he's trying to muscle out. The rich hiding in their decadent nests, etc. etc. Regardless of whether it's based on a lie or not, they're holding this man up on a pedestal, and people in power are leaning on it and benefiting from it for selfish reasons, rather than trying to embody the virtue that he supposedly stood for.

I remember one interpretation of TDK wherein Harvey Dent represented the soul of Gotham, with Batman and The Joker kind of playing a tug of war with him.

Well, if you carry that interpretation over to TDKR, Two-Face is exactly what Gotham has become. On the surface, squeaky clean, but there's this whole undercurrent of hatred and evil that is building up while it's in this pacified state. There's definitely two sides to the coin there.

So, personally I don't think that's boring at all. I think it's pretty rich and fascinating.

Indeed it is. I've noticed that it requires a certain level of open-mindedness to see some aspects of these movies in a positive and more complex light than they actually appear to be at first. Some people just lack that open-mindedness, which is instead replaced by a staunch rigidity. That's the nature of batfans, it seems.

[shauner111]

i find it funny how the same people complain about Nolans exposition and how it's too much. Then when Nolan just hints at something and allows the audience to just imagine something, not holding their hands the whole time...they complain that it wasnt explained enough. That it just doesnt make sense for the story.

You can never please everyone it seems. Some things need explaining, some things just need their concept to be brought to the table while letting an audience member to come up with the details for themselves.

Nolans movies have this all the time.

[The Guard]

We're led to believe in TDK that the entire mob pooled their money together, which is how Dent is able to build a RICO case against them. So I gotta assume that includes all the bosses.

Now that I think about it, various mob families all pooling their money together with one accountant is pretty much just as outlandish and fantasy-based as a legislation that could cripple the mob in one fell swoop.

Which was also incredibly stupid. I've been saying that since TDK. The mob is just not well portrayed in these films.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Indeed it is. I've noticed that it requires a certain level of open-mindedness to see some aspects of these movies in a positive and more complex light than they actually appear to be at first. Some people just lack that open-mindedness, which is instead replaced by a staunch rigidity. That's the nature of batfans, it seems.

Some Bat fans are just not open minded to weak, lazy writing. They're tricky like that.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Which was also incredibly stupid. I've been saying that since TDK. The mob is just not well portrayed in these films.

They had been backed into a corner by Batman. Did they pool the money before Lau ran off with hit? If so, it was an act of desperation. If not, Lau saw an opportunity to add to his clout in the underworld and took it.

[Fudgie]

Joker got Lau and their money, and then burned his half of it with Lau on top.

Still waiting to hear how a no parole for people in jail Dent Act helps clean up the streets.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

They apparently got enough out of Lau to fill the courtroom to the brim with mobsters/maybe bosses. I figure they used that info to come down hard on the rest of the bosses with the Dent Act. No parole=people stay in prison-->less thugs for hire.

[Fudgie]

Dent got half of the lower level guys. The grunts. Half. Only half. Not even the majority. The bosses are still free and thugs for hire are a dime a dozen. A lot of potential for aggressive expansion as Joker said. As if nobody else wouldn't move in on their territory even if the boss heads did go down anyway.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Dent got half of the lower level guys. The grunts. Half. Only half. Not even the majority. The bosses are still free and thugs for hire are a dime a dozen. A lot of potential for aggressive expansion as Joker said. As if nobody else wouldn't move in on their territory even if the boss heads did go down anyway.

Thanks for clarifying. If he got half the thugs, then that's near to the majority of them. The intel from Lau still could have given the police the heads-up on which bosses to take out and the order in which to bring them down. Lau knew who the bosses were. It stands to reason that he would've known their home bases. Operations fall apart and they scatter. From there its a matter of dragging them to Black Gate.

[shauner111]

Gordons the war-hero who made the streets pretty damn clean in 8 years. We are not shown what happened in those 8 years. You use your imagination for this. Put two and two together. If we arrive at TDKR and Gordons being praised in such a manner and we see what Gotham is now like, then obviously it's because they caught the rest of the mob guys. Very simple stuff.

I still dont think the majority of the guys in that room with the Joker were mob bosses. It seemed like there were only a few heads and the rest were of a lower status.

So you think well they either got what was left or maybe some fled the city. Because in their minds the Batman took out Maroni (of course that was Dent), Joker took out Gambol and the Chechen. And soon after a bill comes around that denies parole if they get in prison? If ANYTHING sticks to these guys, which is not hard when you commit as many crimes as they do, then theyre screwed. If i was in the mob i would leave Gotham and continue my operations in another city. Whoever stays probably at some point (8 years is a long time) gets caught by the police, or they just become useless since they dont have what it takes to run a big enterprise themselves.

It's grounded sure, but i try not to analyze it and compare it to real life. I'm still aware that it's a movie. Just like i suspend my disbelief for The Bat, and other various gadgets, i also dont look too far into certain plot devices while im in the cinema.

The Harvey Dent Act was a bill passed to help reduce organized crime a great deal. There's more than one function to it too, so that helps. What if Gordon and Batmans plan worked for a whole decade? And Dent was honored with such a bill that went after the mob furthermore in his honor? It made sense to me in that context, i went with it, and i enjoyed the payoff.

I have no complaints regarding the Dent Act. I liked the use of it in the story. And it was interesting seeing the Nolans take Bruce's character and put him on the shelf like Returns and make him have one last comeback before he passes the torch. I soaked it all up.

Even if it meant that Bruce had a limited amount of time as the Batman. If i want a Batman who has a 20 year career, i have no problem reading the comics and enjoying that. We were told seven years ago that this universe was if Bruce Wayne existed in the world we live in, with all the limitations our world has. Some of it was stretched but 90 percent of it stayed true to a real world city. And it never occurred to me that somebody would be able to be Batman night-in/night-out for 10 years or so. So like i said, i have no complaints.

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

They had been backed into a corner by Batman. Did they pool the money before Lau ran off with hit? If so, it was an act of desperation. If not, Lau saw an opportunity to add to his clout in the underworld and took it.

Clearly an act of desperation. Dent took all of Lau's competitors out. It would only be logical, although risky, for the entire mob to pool their money under one accountant that Dent and the police have no jurisdiction.

[Nave 'Torment']

Dent's entire arc as this great government agent who's doing everything he can for justice was deconstructed with Two-Face, I see the Dent Act as an extension of Two-Face instead of Harvey Dent. Remember how the ending to TDK shows how both the citizens and the criminals are "ready to believe in good." The other idea is that all of that was a good example of how these are "extreme" and "ideal" instances, even for a modern-day city, making everything "larger-than-life."

You don't expect the entire mob to be wiped out, unless you're in Gotham City.

Anyway, what I really want to know is how all of this applies to Bruce's own crusade against criminals. I get that he's always shown to focus on the "bigger picture" ala the ending to Frank Miller's DKR, but they also didn't refrain from showing how he's still fighting petty criminals in these as well.

"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you've decided to finish them off one at a time?"

He is desperate.

"You think your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands..."

Coz yeah, he does that. If the Dent Act is TDK's version of the KEANE ACT from Watchmen the fact still remains that vigilantes like Rorscach were still active while it was imposed.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Dent got half of the lower level guys. The grunts. Half. Only half. Not even the majority. The bosses are still free and thugs for hire are a dime a dozen. A lot of potential for aggressive expansion as Joker said. As if nobody else wouldn't move in on their territory even if the boss heads did go down anyway.

But they all know that "THE GODDAMN BATMAN WILL KILL YOU"

Dent Act is an excellent example of a society controlled into Order by using Fear and intimidation. Exactly what Bruce wanted. He was just willing to put everyone else in fear as well.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

But they all know that "THE GODDAMN BATMAN WILL KILL YOU"

Eh no they don't. Batman disappeared after he killed Dent, one of the good guys.

Dent Act is an excellent example of a society controlled into Order by using Fear and intimidation. Exactly what Bruce wanted. He was just willing to put everyone else in fear as well.

Dent Act only works on guys in jail. Nobody not in jail has a reason to fear it. That's why it's stupid.

[BatLobsterRises]

I'm still waiting for the proof that the Dent Act doesn't take any measures to make organized crime easier to prosecute. Just because the film only mentions the denial of parole doesn't mean that's the only facet of the act. To assume so is conjecture (that's right I said it ), when common sense dictates that if the streets were clean, further measures were taken that gave the police more power.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I'm still waiting for the proof that the Dent Act doesn't take any measures to make organized crime easier to prosecute.

The onus is on the movie to prove that. Not us. The only information offered by the movie regarding how the Dent Act works is in relation to denying convicted criminals any parole. Considering it was such a major thing in Gotham, and Nolan gave so little info on it, is what makes it so silly and nonsensical.

Anything else you come up with after that regarding how it works is just theory and conjecture.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Eh no they don't. Batman disappeared after he killed Dent, one of the good guys.

A vigilante, by definition, is someone who imposes his own idea of justice on others. Batman's a vigilante, fact that he killed "one of the good guys" makes his status as a symbol of fear even greater.

Dent Act only works on guys in jail. Nobody not in jail has a reason to fear it. That's why it's stupid.

A prison is supposed to be a place where you're redeemed or purged, there is a sense of rehabilitation in it. With the Dent Act that entire idea is removed. If you're in prison you stay there. End of discussion. Fact that a city, desperate to impose order, would do that to the people it has captured says a lot about the length it goes to capture them. They all know Batman's waiting outside. I don't think the gravity for such a law should be taken for granted. There's a reason why the system has parole.

The point of the 8-year-gap was to show that Batman wasn't needed; in one sense, he was "out of work" because there was no demand for him. The very reason it worked is because of the events in TDK.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Indeed it is. I've noticed that it requires a certain level of open-mindedness to see some aspects of these movies in a positive and more complex light than they actually appear to be at first. Some people just lack that open-mindedness, which is instead replaced by a staunch rigidity. That's the nature of batfans, it seems.

Well, without going directly into condemning our fellow bat-fans I think with a Chris Nolan movie a lot is intentionally left ambiguous so that speculation and re-interpretation is made possible. The Dent Act, like Inception's many layers of the mechanism/tech with which they used to invade other people's dreams, is one such element.

I think it's a clever way of getting the audience to be more active. Sort of get their attention to focus on what's actually happening in the movie.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

A vigilante, by definition, is someone who imposes his own idea of justice on others. Batman's a vigilante, fact that he killed "one of the good guys" makes his status as a symbol of fear even greater.

You don't get it. The guy vanished after he killed Dent. Gone. Bye bye. For years. Criminals would have taken advantage of that and moved in on Gotham and any other criminals territory.

A prison is supposed to be a place where you're redeemed or purged, there is a sense of rehabilitation in it. With the Dent Act that entire idea is removed. If you're in prison you stay there. End of discussion. Fact that a city, desperate to impose order, would do that to the people it has captured says a lot about the length it goes to capture them. They all know Batman's waiting outside. I don't think the gravity for such a law should be taken for granted. There's a reason why the system has parole.

A prison is a place of punishment. Keeping people in there to serve their full sentences wouldn't frighten away criminals who are not behind bars. You can't sling someone in jail unless you have the goods on them to convict them.

End of discussion.

The point of the 8-year-gap was to show that Batman wasn't needed; in one sense, he was "out of work" because there was no demand for him. The very reason it worked is because of the events in TDK.

Yup and how they achieved that nice happy land Gotham was a load of unrealistic unbelievable hog wash.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by The Joker

The onus is on the movie to prove that. Not us. The only information offered by the movie regarding how the Dent Act works is in relation to denying convicted criminals any parole. Considering it was such a major thing in Gotham, and Nolan gave so little info on it, is what makes it so silly and nonsensical.

Anything else you come up with after that regarding how it works is just theory and conjecture.

It is, absolutely, but we shouldn't forget what the Dent Act implies or means to Gotham City. In the film, that's clearly the idea that it's Gotham's equivalent of Big Brother.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

I think it's a clever way of getting the audience to be more active. Sort of get their attention to focus on what's actually happening in the movie.

Yeah because the movie makes it such an interesting thing to analyse. Not. 8 years later. Crime is all gone thanks to a law that doesn't give you parole if you're in jail. Batman threw in the cape after TDK because crime was instantly done after Dent popped his clogs.

Holy dumb writing, Batman.