TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

And we're back to people disliking TDKR for not fitting their own vision instead of Nolan's.

The only 'vision' I had for Rises was that it needed to justify bringing back the LoS and introducing Talia. It didn't. The great irony is there are so many directions presented witin the film itself as to where Nolan could have taken things but resorted to rehashing plot points from film one, and in doing so effectively told people like me that how they viewed film one is wrong.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by CConn

So you're saying 9/11 was utter BS?

Pretty much.

Also, the guy finds realism in CBMs boring and uninteresting.

[Alexei Belyakov]

Originally Posted by Joeyjojo72

I have to lol at the notion that the NolanBat movies are "realistic".

Right, because The Patriot Act, Al-Qaeda's presence in Kazakhstan, nuclear weapons, The Arab Spring, police corruption, post-9/11 paranoia, Homeland Security's nationwide phone tapping & soldiers being hung for the world to see are completely unrealistic things.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/...-oscars-judges

That doesn't surprise me.

Originally Posted by Joeyjojo72

TDKR should be nominated for the technical awards. Catwoman has a slight chance of a nom, but she'll probably get that for Les Mis.

Actual wins are probably not in the cards, given the competition.

And I have to lol at the notion that the NolanBat movies are "realistic". Or that Nolan is in general a "realistic", verite-style director. He isnt.

I agree. They may use real world ideas as inspiration, but the execution of them is not realistic. Especially in TDKR.

Originally Posted by CConn

All he did the entire movie was manipulate Bruce to do what he wanted. It was painfully obvious.

I never saw that. How did he manipulate him to do what he wanted all through the movie? Especially considering Ra's vanished for most of the movie after the training segments were over. By the time he resurfaced we were into the climax of the movie.

Bruce went to him looking for training and guidance. When Ra's tried to coerce Bruce into something he didn't want to do, namely murdering someone, he rebelled.

Originally Posted by jmc

The only 'vision' I had for Rises was that it needed to justify bringing back the LoS and introducing Talia. It didn't. The great irony is there are so many directions presented witin the film itself as to where Nolan could have taken things but resorted to rehashing plot points from film one, and in doing so effectively told people like me that how they viewed film one is wrong.

Exactly.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I never saw that. How did he manipulate him to do what he wanted all through the movie? Especially considering Ra's vanished for most of the movie after the training segments were over. By the time he resurfaced we were into the climax of the movie.

Bruce went to him looking for training and guidance. When Ra's tried to coerce Bruce into something he didn't want to do, namely murdering someone, he rebelled.

When I said entire movie, I meant the entire time Ra's was present.

No, Bruce didnt go to him. Ra's slaughter him out. Vaguely offered services and answers that Bruce sought, bonded with him, utilized his knowledge of Bruce's anger and emotional makeup to steer him along the path that he wanted.

And yes, Bruce did rebel. But that was still Ra's goal the entire time with Bruce; manipulate him to achieve his own ends.

[Anno_Domini]

I love how polarizing TDKR is...and even with Batman fans

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by CConn

When I said entire movie, I meant the entire time Ra's was present.

Ok. When someone says the entire movie, they usually mean the entire movie.

No, Bruce didnt go to him. Ra's slaughter him out. Vaguely offered services and answers that Bruce sought, bonded with him, utilized his knowledge of Bruce's anger and emotional makeup to steer him along the path that he wanted.

Ra's met him in the prison. Offered him something better than brawling with petty criminals, and left him to it. It wasn't a manipulation. It was an offer. Plain and simple.

He helped Bruce conquer his fears and deal with his anger. No manipulation because Bruce wanted that.

And yes, Bruce did rebel. But that was still Ra's goal the entire time with Bruce; manipulate him to achieve his own ends.

What own ends? Bruce wanted to join the LOS. He was with them on everything up until he learned that their way of doing things was murder. After that he was out.

Manipulation implies he was being conned into doing things he wouldn't normally do or didn't want. Everything he did with Ra's he wanted. He wanted to get over his fears. He wanted to deal with his anger. He wanted to learn how to fight criminals and use fear against them. Ra's showed him all of that. No manipulations needed.

You're the first person I've ever seen accuse Ra's of manipulating Bruce in the training.

[CConn]

Omg. I'm not debating this. This isn't even about TDKR.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by CConn

Omg. I'm not debating this. This isn't even about TDKR.

The last few pages have not even been about the Oscars either

[CConn]

In all honesty, you could very well be right about Ra's being totally forthcoming.

But if he was, I honestly like BB less. That's just really lazy and illogical writing on Nolan's part. Neither comic Ra's nor real life terrorists just go around helping people out of the goodness of their hearts.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by CConn

In all honesty, you could very well be right about Ra's being totally forthcoming.

But if he was, I honestly like BB less. That's just really lazy and illogical writing on Nolan's part. Neither comic Ra's nor real life terrorists just go around helping people out of the goodness of their hearts.

I don't think he was doing it out of the goodness of his heart lol. He obviously saw potential in Bruce as a possible new LOS member. He saw a kindred spirit, too, as he could relate to the anger and pain Bruce was feeling over his parents death because Ra's had lost his wife. "Your anger gives you great power, but if you let it it can destroy you, as it almost did me", "Like you I was forced to learn there are those who must be fought without hesitation, without pity" etc.

He did call Bruce his greatest student who should be standing by his side "saving the world".

[BatLobsterRises]

On the whole Ra's/manipulation angle...I think perhaps "exploiting" is the better word. Ra's saw a man in need, offered him a path, even formed a sincere bond with him...but there's still ulterior motives at play there. No way it's a coincidence that this man is looking to destroy Gotham and he just so happens to seek out "Gotham's favorite son". As Watanabe-Ra's say Bruce is "ideally placed" for their mission. Heck, Bruce's family company has the weapon they need for their mission. Ra's of course that knew he couldn't just start with, "Hi, I'm looking for a right-hand man to destroy your city with and I think you'd be great because you have tons of anger and resources that we could use". Obviously because he couldn't expose his plan that early to an outsider, but also because there's no way Bruce was the type who would have gone for that. What did Bruce want though? A way to deal with his pain and fight criminals. So Ra's started there in hopes that he could take a broken man, slowly indoctrinate him and rebuild him in his own image.

Originally Posted by jmc

The only 'vision' I had for Rises was that it needed to justify bringing back the LoS and introducing Talia. It didn't. The great irony is there are so many directions presented witin the film itself as to where Nolan could have taken things but resorted to rehashing plot points from film one, and in doing so effectively told people like me that how they viewed film one is wrong.

All I can say on this one is that it's certainly not uncommon in trilogies for third films to do that kind of thing. For me, it just felt like proper storytelling. I always enjoyed Randy's little lecture on the rules of a trilogy in Scream 3, it's pretty accurate:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

I know this is only dragging things further off topic, sorry lol.

To get things back on topic, is it true that Zimmer can't get a nomination because the score is based on a previous score? If so that's a shame.

[Spider-Fan]

I don't want to keep this debate going, so I am just making a final comment on this topic:

Originally Posted by Alexei Belyakov

Keep trying to make sense out of Al-Qaeda. Out of why they destroy things.

Terrorists don't do things for the heck of it. There is always a motive, even with crazy people. It doesn't have to be a logic most people follow, and the lack of understanding of one person or persons doesn't mean that they have no reason.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

I understand it fine mon ami. I've been saying this stuff forever against those who kept going on that Bane and Talia were following LOS ideals.

You know basing them on real life terrorist idiots who make no sense doesn't mean they're good villains and their plan is good. Especially when you had Ra's and Joker with good plans that made sense.

Ra's wanted to restore balance to dirty cities like Gotham. Makes sense. Joker wanted to prove Gotham can pushed into being crazy like him. Makes sense.

Killing crime free city. Makes no sense.

I think this post sums up my feelings very well

And, coming back full circle to the topic of the thread, it is the plot's lack of logic that I think hurt the film and has rendered it not Oscar worthy.

[Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I don't want to keep this debate going, so I am just making a final comment on this topic:



Terrorists don't do things for the heck of it. There is always a motive, even with crazy people. It doesn't have to be a logic most people follow, and the lack of understanding of one person or persons doesn't mean that they have no reason.



I think this post sums up my feelings very well

And, coming back full circle to the topic of the thread, it is the plot's lack of logic that I think hurt the film and has rendered it not Oscar worthy.

That's your opinion buddy.

[Bruce_Begins]

Originally Posted by CConn

When I said entire movie, I meant the entire time Ra's was present.

No, Bruce didnt go to him. Ra's slaughter him out. Vaguely offered services and answers that Bruce sought, bonded with him, utilized his knowledge of Bruce's anger and emotional makeup to steer him along the path that he wanted.

And yes, Bruce did rebel. But that was still Ra's goal the entire time with Bruce; manipulate him to achieve his own ends.

I would say that Ras' goal was to manipulate Bruce from the beginning, from the first time he visited Bruce in jail.

Why would he go to visit him in the first place ? Unless he wanted to see if Bruce had some potential that could be exploited for his ulterior motives.

We know that Ras did not like Thomas Wayne so then why should he seek out Bruce Wayne ? Unless he wanted to accomplish something that he failed to do in the past, only this time around using the son of the Thomas Wayne.
A family who stood against him in the past. That is pure manipulation. (IMO.)

[Optimus_Prime_]

It also took Batman two hours to figure out punching Bane in the face is the way to beat him. Ah, good detective work there Sherlock.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

It also took Batman two hours to figure out punching Bane in the face is the way to beat him. Ah, good detective work there Sherlock.

Batman punches Bane quite a few times in the face during their first fight, but anytime he's about to get in a good shot Bane stops him. A good example of this is when Batman's got Bane on the ground.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Batman punches Bane quite a few times in the face during their first fight, but anytime he's about to get in a good shot Bane stops him. A good example of this is when Batman's got Bane on the ground.

Which actually made that final fight a little more odd. I wish they did something more with the mask. It was really MacGuffin. He broke the mask, but it didn't seem like a big revelation that mask was his weakness.

This may even kind of go back to my issue with the Talia twist because to me the revelation about Bane was so obvious, and a dull surprise.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

All I can say on this one is that it's certainly not uncommon in trilogies for third films to do that kind of thing. For me, it just felt like proper storytelling. I always enjoyed Randy's little lecture on the rules of a trilogy in Scream 3, it's pretty accurate:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Funny how that video mentioned Godfather 3 and Jedi - now what do those films have in common again? Oh that's right, they are considered inferior to the first two films in the series. Clearly the results from these so called trilogy 'rules' speak for themselves.

[Optimus_Prime_]

The Dark Knight Rises reminds me a lot of Godfather 3 because Godfather 3 isn't really a bad movie, just clearly inferior to it's predecessors.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by jmc

Funny how that video mentioned Godfather 3 and Jedi - now what do those films have in common again? Oh that's right, they are considered inferior to the first two films in the series. Clearly the results from these so called trilogy 'rules' speak for themselves.

I like Return of the Jedi. But I like The Dark Knight Rises a lot more. Most third movies do the "reveal something from the first movie you thought was true but wasn't true", if's a true trilogy. That's something you specifically criticized, but this just how multi-movie storytelling tends to work if you're trying to tie up loose ends. It's true that there haven't been many great third movies. Hell, the movie that clip belongs to is itself a pretty mediocre third movie. But "Star Wars" is still considered a classic trilogy despite most people thinking Jedi is the weakest. Godfather 3 often just gets left out of the conversation. IMO, the TDK trilogy will probably suit from the Star Wars model, where TDKR "counts" and is part of the discussion.

The only thing Jedi failed to do IMO was raise the stakes enough from the previous two movies. The addition of The Emperor was great, and the way Luke and Vader's character arcs wrap up was phenomenal. It just failed to feel as grand as what had come before, to me. That is where TDKR succeeded with flying colors and what elevates it to being my favorite threequel of all time.

[Tvar10]

About the whole mask thing. I think that batman was underestimating bane before he met up with him. When alfred explained how ferocious bane was Bruce just shrugged it off (ill fight harder, I always have). His mind wasn't fully into it and he thought he'd just beat him and be done. I think both fights were won and lost during the tie up. The first one batman was struggling and bane didn't show any struggle (victory has defeated you). So from then on bane had the fight. Even when it seemed like batman would take control bane just toyed with him. Batman wasn't physically or mentally ready.

During the second fight when they did the tie up again batman matched strength and bane had this look on his face like "oh man". Batman was physically and mentally prepared better. He also learned that banes mask was the source of his weakness when he was in the prison. So he attacked it harder

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Well it both movies Gotham was going to be destroyed by a bunch of Ninjas. It's a lot like Jedi in that regard.

Here's the Deathstar

Here's the Deathstar 2.0

Here's Ra's

Here's Ra's 2.0 with boobs.

I think the Hype is freaking out again and putting posts in the wrong threads.

Anyhow, yes and no. The difference is, with Jedi...it's the same plan, the same weapon. No innovation there on the bad guys' part, or even upping the ante. They're still on the ropes recovering from the first film. TDKR brings back the same organization yes, but they've got a head start and are under different leadership with entirely different type of plan. Plus Bane has an entirely different flavor to what came before. It was sufficiently different, while connecting to the first movie IMO. More importantly though, it felt like a greater threat than ever.

[Optimus_Prime_]

That would be wrong. Jedi tells everyone straight up the next Deathstar is more powerful.

[BatLobsterRises]

Okay, but that's just paying lip service to the idea. They blew up a planet in ANH, we never see any destruction on that scale in ROTJ. TDKR takes it further, brings the villain closer to victory, in fact the villain pretty much wins halfway through the movie.

What would have been more effective was if The Emperor blew up Tatooine in his effort to turn Luke, or something like that.