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Old 10-25-2012, 10:00 PM   #151
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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Gordon's letter was just melodrama. I don't really have an issue with the fact that he carried it with him and they found it while searching him. You can forget stuff you're carrying with you sometimes, even if its important. There's also the idea that he feels so guilty that he "carries" it with him, so it kind of works metaphorically.

The problem is that its just melodrama. Other than inciting a bunch of melodrama and giving Gordon a plot excuse to tell Blake that sometimes you have to go outside the law in melodramatic fashion, it doesn't lead to anything. Blake *****es him out, and its an excuse for Gordon to say a bunch of flowery stuff about Batman doing what needed to be done. The morality of what Gordon did is never really explored, the people of Gotham don't really react to what he did, and the criminals would want released from prison regardless. There's no resolution to it or to the idea that the Mayor was going to dump him in the Spring, it all just seems to be business as usual.
Gordon wasn't ever going to let that note be revealed because he wasn't ever going to let the truth see the light of day. Gordon internalized everything, so having Bane force the truth out of him and to the public let him open up about his conflicting feelings. I for one loved seeing him open up to Blake at that moment and call to question his own ethics. It makes his later heroics bitter sweet.

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #152
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

I think they had to walk a tricky balance with dealing with the consequences of the Dent Act, because while you don't want to completely leave the characters off the hook morally, you also don't want to crap all over the ending of TDK, which is powerful and meaningful in its own right.

The film deals with the ramifications of the lie by showing that Bruce and Gordon aren't in a good place 8 years later. But at the same time they can't just forget the circumstances that led them to make that decision. The Joker threatened to undo all the progress they had made and create a climate of hopelessness for Gotham. Batman made a choice for the both of them that seemed like the best way out of a very sticky situation. What they didn't consider in that moment was how difficult this choice would be for themselves to live with. The truth can be a horrible burden to carry alone (and they were both alone and isolated at the start of the film).

I felt sympathy for Gordon, he was put in an unenviable position. I didn't need to see him learn the importance of telling the truth or anything like that. That would simplify TDK's ending too much for me. I'm glad I can still watch that ending and the original feeling I got from it isn't negated. It's morally ambiguous and our heroes end up feeling the consequences of it, but TDKR doesn't try to unequivocally say "this. is. WRONG!" and I appreciated that.

Ultimately, the film ends up siding with Gordon in the argument he and Blake have, because through the events of the film Blake comes to see it Gordon's way and tells him he was right. What's cool is how Gordon foreshadows the ending by telling Blake the rules can become shackles and that he hopes he'll have a friend like Batman if he ever faces a moment of crisis. A lot of people say Nolan showed his hand too early by showing us Alfred in Florence (which I have to agree with), but I think how they foreshadowed Blake's ending there was pretty slick because they're setting you up to think of him as Gordon's protege and the future police commissioner.

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:25 PM   #153
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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I'd say Joker was wearing a costume,since he was trying to put across a persona.Two-Face on the other hand,was wearing the clothes he had the accident in,so it wasn't exactly a case of him designing (aka damaging) his clothes for the sake of making a costume to his new persona.

That's the way I see it anyway.....
Snap.

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Gordon's letter was just melodrama. I don't really have an issue with the fact that he carried it with him and they found it while searching him. You can forget stuff you're carrying with you sometimes, even if its important. There's also the idea that he feels so guilty that he "carries" it with him, so it kind of works metaphorically.

The problem is that its just melodrama. Other than inciting a bunch of melodrama and giving Gordon a plot excuse to tell Blake that sometimes you have to go outside the law in melodramatic fashion, it doesn't lead to anything. Blake *****es him out, and its an excuse for Gordon to say a bunch of flowery stuff about Batman doing what needed to be done. The morality of what Gordon did is never really explored, the people of Gotham don't really react to what he did, and the criminals would want released from prison regardless. There's no resolution to it or to the idea that the Mayor was going to dump him in the Spring, it all just seems to be business as usual.
Exactly. I also wish the LOS had discovered the lie BEFORE coming to Gotham, and therefore giving them an incentive to finish off Gotham because the peace time and the sacred memory of Harvey Dent is all a fraud.

As Ra's said to Bruce in his cameo "You yourself fought the decadence of Gotham and all you managed to achieve was based on a lie. You see now why Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die".

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:14 AM   #154
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

Grounded?

The president of the United States was white

(obvious troll is obvious)

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:28 AM   #155
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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Grounded?

The president of the United States was white

(obvious troll is obvious)
You make it difficult to be ridiculed

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:13 AM   #156
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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And all of this goes back to another one of the primary issues I, and others, had with TDKR. And that's the absence of the regular citizens point of view. That all would have been dealt with if we were shown how the public reacts not only to Bane's revelation of Gordon (and if they even believe it) but also the whole takeover of Gotham.

We needed to see and feel that from the ground level. And because of everything else going on, I presume, there wasn't sufficient time for that. But it definitely affects the whole plot in a negative way IMO.
I think that about sums up all those plot holes. With the regular citizens basically absent, it felt like the cops were just having a bad week, rather than Gotham itself being in peril, or even giving a sh**.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:32 AM   #157
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Well it both movies Gotham was going to be destroyed by a bunch of Ninjas. It's a lot like Jedi in that regard.

Here's the Deathstar

Here's the Deathstar 2.0

Here's Ra's

Here's Ra's 2.0 with boobs.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #158
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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Grounded?

The president of the United States was white

(obvious troll is obvious)
In Nolan's defense, Morgan Freeman was busy with another character that day.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:05 PM   #159
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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And all of this goes back to another one of the primary issues I, and others, had with TDKR. And that's the absence of the regular citizens point of view. That all would have been dealt with if we were shown how the public reacts not only to Bane's revelation of Gordon (and if they even believe it) but also the whole takeover of Gotham.

We needed to see and feel that from the ground level. And because of everything else going on, I presume, there wasn't sufficient time for that. But it definitely affects the whole plot in a negative way IMO.

Valid point although I'm not sure where that would have fit or how try would have depicted it when everybody's locked I. Their homes afraid to go out. IMO they were successful in using Blake and modine as reflections of the populace in the instances that needed to be covered from the people's viewpoint. Probably the clunkiest part of the film, but unlike Optimus said, this is hardly a plot hole, it's picking your battles on what is important to the story from our principle characters standpoints, and IMO they made the right choice.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #160
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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Grounded?

The president of the United States was white

(obvious troll is obvious)
Actually the movie takes place at the end of 2016, so U.S will have their white Prez around that time anyway!

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:14 PM   #161
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

For me, the first half of TDKR felt a lot more like TDK in tone. While the second half, more so the finale, sans the ending, felt like BB; but with a more satisfying third act.

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Old 10-26-2012, 05:23 PM   #162
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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I'd say Joker was wearing a costume,since he was trying to put across a persona.Two-Face on the other hand,was wearing the clothes he had the accident in,so it wasn't exactly a case of him designing (aka damaging) his clothes for the sake of making a costume to his new persona.

That's the way I see it anyway.....
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Snap.
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Once again (and I'm talking specifically Nolan's version even though most iterations follow "suit" as well, no pun intended), just because the suit is purple, garish & tacky (which I already conceded it was anyway) that still doesn't make it a "costume" like the stuff Bane, Catwoman & Batman wear. There's no functionality to it, and while you can say it's symbolic for him, it's also not necessarily symbolic or representative of clowns.

Circus clowns wear all kinds of bright colors, purple isn't a prerequisite or automatic identifier. It's primarily an overcoat, vest, slacks and a shirt. It's flamboyant in the hasty way it's put together, and it's an expression of his personality, but it's not a costume IMO.
Snap.

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For me, the first half of TDKR felt a lot more like TDK in tone. While the second half, more so the finale, sans the ending, felt like BB; but with a more satisfying third act.
I kind of agree with that. I still feel that the overall plot and how it's handled however, requires more of a suspension of disbelief primarily because of the things they didn't show, as opposed to the merits of reality. In the previous two films, but especially BB, Nolan tried to explain everything, almost to a fault. In TDKR, he basically shuns that, and now leaves subtle indications of things, if he leaves anything at all.

How does Bruce get to Gotham exactly? Who knows, he's Batman. Well, where was the prison at anyway? Who knows, it was far. How do the people feel about Bane's takeover? Don't know, but we have to focus on Blake so the ending is more credible. Well, how do they feel about Gordon's letter? Do they even believe it? Who knows, but we're too far into the movie to do a 180 now and show the regular citizens and their reactions, lol. Things like that hurt the film more than any plausibility or reality issues.

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Old 10-26-2012, 05:33 PM   #163
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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And all of this goes back to another one of the primary issues I, and others, had with TDKR. And that's the absence of the regular citizens point of view. That all would have been dealt with if we were shown how the public reacts not only to Bane's revelation of Gordon (and if they even believe it) but also the whole takeover of Gotham.

We needed to see and feel that from the ground level. And because of everything else going on, I presume, there wasn't sufficient time for that. But it definitely affects the whole plot in a negative way IMO.
Exactly. Bane occupied an American city for several months, why is this barely glossed over in the movie? There are a lot of things about the Dark Knight Rises I dislike, from the 8 year absence to John Blake, but those are minor details. The takeover of Gotham was much more extreme than any of the Joker's schemes, why did I never care about the people of Gotham in the movie when they were in the most danger? BB and TDK succeeded in making us feel for not only Bruce but also Gotham, I feared for those people on the ferries and the state of the city in TDK. I wouldn't have gave a **** if the nuclear bomb went off and killed everyone in TDKR


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Old 10-26-2012, 05:45 PM   #164
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Exactly. Bane occupied an American city for several months, why is this barely glossed over in the movie? There are a lot of things about the Dark Knight Rises I dislike, from the 8 year absence to John Blake, but those are minor details. The takeover of Gotham was much more extreme than any of the Joker's schemes, why did I never care about the people of Gotham in the movie when they were in the most danger? BB and TDK succeeded in making us feel for not only Bruce but also Gotham, I feared for those people on the ferries and the state of the city in TDK. I wouldn't have gave a **** if the nuclear bomb went off and killed everyone in TDKR
Precisely!

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:36 PM   #165
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

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The takeover of Gotham was much more extreme than any of the Joker's schemes, why did I never care about the people of Gotham in the movie when they were in the most danger? BB and TDK succeeded in making us feel for not only Bruce but also Gotham, I feared for those people on the ferries and the state of the city in TDK. I wouldn't have gave a **** if the nuclear bomb went off and killed everyone in TDKR
It's because Nolan never gave you a reason to. He never gave Gotham City a personality like he did in BB and TDK. We didn't see people's reaction to Batman's return. The truth about Dent coming out. What they thought of Bane and his revolution etc. Nothing.

You got more of a flavor of Gotham's people at Dent's press conference in TDK than you did in all of TDKR.

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:39 PM   #166
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The police(via Blake and Foley) and the orphan kid was enough personality for me since we saw other mediums in TDK.

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:41 PM   #167
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Law enforcement and an orphan is hardly a good sampling of Gotham's entire citizenship. It's like only tasting two chocolates out of an entire box of different varieties. TDKR is where Gotham's people should have mattered more than ever since Bane's whole revolution was about them taking back their city.

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:45 PM   #168
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And as I said, it's fine when we saw all the other mediums in TDK. We saw the media and there was no use for the media in TDKR as there was in TDK. All that was shown was a quick clip of showing Batman's return and filming Bane's speech infront of Blackgate. And for the regular citizens? They were in worse shape in TDKR with getting bullied around by prisoners and the League to really voice their opinions.

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:52 PM   #169
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And as I said, it's fine when we saw all the other mediums in TDK. We saw the media and there was no use for the media in TDKR as there was in TDK.
That's TDK. It was a whole different situation to TDKR. Batman comes back after 8 years. Harvey Dent is exposed as a murderous fraud. The city is laid siege so the people can take it back.

No reactions to any of this.

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And for the regular citizens? They were in worse shape in TDKR with getting bullied around by prisoners and the League to really voice their opinions.
Were they tied up and gagged? Were their tongues cut out? The vocal chords sliced? No. Why should their desperate situation stop the story from giving us a sampling of the people's state of mind on all the important events and revelations in the movie?

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:52 PM   #170
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And as I said, it's fine when we saw all the other mediums in TDK. We saw the media and there was no use for the media in TDKR as there was in TDK. All that was shown was a quick clip of showing Batman's return and filming Bane's speech infront of Blackgate. And for the regular citizens? They were in worse shape in TDKR with getting bullied around by prisoners and the League to really voice their opinions.
I don't even understand how you're excusing this. Bane's whole plot involves torturing the city and breaking down the citizens and yet you're saying that all we needed to see of this is some random orphan and two cops. If anything, TDKR should have showed even more of the city's inhabitants than TDK. The lengths people go to defend this movie are laughable

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:00 PM   #171
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That's TDK. It was a whole different situation to TDKR. Batman comes back after 8 years. Harvey Dent is exposed as a murderous fraud. The city is laid siege so the people can take it back.

No reactions to any of this.
The city is laid siege so the criminals can take it back. During Bane's entire revolution we could see how the criminals were locking everyone up inside City Hall to await trial by Crane.

But still, I was fine with there not being such a big prominence with the media. TDKR went by very fast and Batman had only returned one night before Bane broke him. And as for Dent? There were "bigger fish to fry".

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Were they tied up and gagged? Were their tongues cut out? The vocal chords sliced? No. Why should their desperate situation stop the story from giving us a sampling of the people's state of mind on all the important events and revelations in the movie?
Their state of mind was depression, afraid of being caught, otherwise there would be no reason for so many to try to live inside the orphanage building, or living next door to Wayne Tower. They were afraid of what could come for them.

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I don't even understand how you're excusing this. Bane's whole plot involves torturing the city and breaking down the citizens and yet you're saying that all we needed to see of this is some random orphan and two cops. If anything, TDKR should have showed even more of the city's inhabitants than TDK. The lengths people go to defend this movie are laughable
I don't see how it's an excuse. I was perfectly fine with it. Is it laughable that I was perfectly fine with what we got? I could clearly say it's laughable that people DON'T understand the film the same way I do.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:35 PM   #172
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The city is laid siege so the criminals can take it back.
"Gotham, take control. Take control of your city"

Now by "Gotham" does he mean criminals? Was Bane expecting to find many criminals at a football stadium? If it was about the criminals he would have made a direct bee line to Blackgate. The criminals were released because of the Dent lie, which Bane never even knew about until he read Gordon's letter, and his plan was well in motion by then.

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TDKR went by very fast
Months of a siege was very fast?

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and Batman had only returned one night before Bane broke him.
So? One night, one hour, or one minute he was back and it was all over the news. What was Gotham's reaction to this?

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And as for Dent? There were "bigger fish to fry".
According to whom? You? That's not how the movie shows it. The movie made such a big deal of Harvey Dent and his legacy on Gotham City.

You think the revelation of the big cover up from TDK that had such dramatic repercussions like Gotham being sent into 8 years of peace time and turned Bruce into a recluse and Batman into a hated, hunted, retired, redundant wreck should be swept under the rug?

That's good writing to you?

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Their state of mind was depression
How insightful. That's like saying Gotham's state of mind regarding the Joker's antics was fear. Gladly Nolan elaborated a lot more on that in TDK, and therefore made Gotham's safety, and the Joker's chaos, a lot more dramatic and real because you saw how it was affecting Gotham's people.

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afraid of being caught
The bridges were blown. The army was on guard to stop anyone leaving the city. Who's afraid of being caught except the Cops? "They're hunting Cops down like dogs".

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otherwise there would be no reason for so many to try to live inside the orphanage building, or living next door to Wayne Tower.
Did you miss the rich people being turfed out of their homes onto the streets? Even Selina's friend said to her "A storm's coming remember. This is what you wanted right?".

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:49 PM   #173
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

My whole thing on the "Gotham's POV" angle is this...

BB was completely focused on Bruce. I mean really, besides that one scene at the restaurant (which is a light scene), what other random Gothamite perspectives do we get? The "nice coat" guy? kid from Game of Thrones?

In TDK Bruce wasn't even really the true protagonist of the story. We got to see how Gotham reacted to Batman, Joker and everything that was going on. There was more of an omnipresent narrative at work and we got to explore the inner workings of Gotham city more. Everything in the movie reflected back to Batman and in the end he was the title character for a reason, but it was a definite genre shift to the crime saga.

TDKR, while the plot put Gotham's citizens in more peril than ever, shifted its focus back to Bruce's journey again. What I connected with is how TDKR really put you down in that pit with Bruce. While Gotham burned, you got to go on this journey with Bruce, rooting for him to find the strength to get out and reclaim his city. I've heard a lot of people say that the stuff in the pit dragged the movie, but it's my favorite section of the whole thing.

The way I see it, Bane could have thrown Bruce in Blackgate and had him guarded 24/7, and we might have gotten a more Gotham-centric film that never left the city and was more focused on the blow by blow of what was going on there. I just think taking it global and spending time away from Gotham with Bruce helped the film tap into that more personal (I'd even say spiritual) Batman Begins vibe which I really appreciated. Of course, I wouldn't have minded seeing more of the average Gothamite's perspective. I wouldn't have objected to another 15 minutes or so of runtime to allow for that. But I think ultimately that would just appease my curiosity, not necessarily make it a tighter or better movie.

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Old 10-27-2012, 12:01 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
My whole thing on the "Gotham's POV" angle is this...

BB was completely focused on Bruce. I mean really, besides that one scene at the restaurant (which is a light scene), what other random Gothamite perspectives do we get? The "nice coat" guy? kid from Game of Thrones?

In TDK Bruce wasn't even really the true protagonist of the story. We got to see how Gotham reacted to Batman, Joker and everything that was going on. There was more of an omnipresent narrative at work and we got to explore the inner workings of Gotham city more. Everything in the movie reflected back to Batman and in the end he was the title character for a reason, but it was a definite genre shift to the crime saga.

TDKR, while the plot put Gotham's citizens in more peril than ever, shifted its focus back to Bruce's journey again. What I connected with is how TDKR really put you down in that pit with Bruce. While Gotham burned, you got to go on this journey with Bruce, rooting for him to find the strength to get out and reclaim his city. I've heard a lot of people say that the stuff in the pit dragged the movie, but it's my favorite section of the whole thing.

The way I see it, Bane could have thrown Bruce in Blackgate and had him guarded 24/7, and we might have gotten a more Gotham-centric film that never left the city and was more focused on the blow by blow of what was going on there. I just think taking it global and spending time away from Gotham with Bruce helped the film tap into that more personal (I'd even say spiritual) Batman Begins vibe which I really appreciated. Of course, I wouldn't have minded seeing more of the average Gothamite's perspective. I wouldn't have objected to another 15 minutes or so of runtime to allow for that. But I think ultimately that would just appease my curiosity, not necessarily make it a tighter or better movie.
Very much agree.

When Batman returns, we get reactionary shots from the main cast, Selina, Gordon, Blake - and Daggett and Stryver as the minor cast.

It would have been nice to see Mike Engel doing a report on Bane's tirade at Blackgate. To be honest, I kind of expected something like that when I first saw the film and the camera pans over to the news broadcasters.

I for one liked the Orphans being a voice for Gotham. They really tied into the angle of Bruce and Blake being cut from the same mold.

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Old 10-27-2012, 12:13 AM   #175
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Default Re: Is "The Dark Knight Rises" as grounded in reality as its predecessors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
My whole thing on the "Gotham's POV" angle is this...

BB was completely focused on Bruce. I mean really, besides that one scene at the restaurant (which is a light scene), what other random Gothamite perspectives do we get? The "nice coat" guy? kid from Game of Thrones?
Let us count the ways of how we saw the people of Gotham City in this:

- Joe Chill, an example of the desperate
- The homeless man
- D.A. Finch and his reluctance to prosecute because Falcone has half the city bought and paid for
- Flass, the corrupt Cop
- Judge Faden, the corrupt judge
- The upper class people at the hotel scene
- Earle, more upper class
- The Felafel guy, the lower class
- The Narrows kid, more lower class

All samplings of various kinds of Gothamites in Gotham, and the kind of people Batman is fighting for. In fact I'll go far as to say the reaction from the upper class snobs to Batman in the hotel scene alone was more citizen insight than TDKR gave.

Quote:
In TDK Bruce wasn't even really the true protagonist of the story. We got to see how Gotham reacted to Batman, Joker and everything that was going on. There was more of an omnipresent narrative at work and we got to explore the inner workings of Gotham city more. Everything in the movie reflected back to Batman and in the end he was the title character for a reason, but it was a definite genre shift to the crime saga.
TDK was about the battle of Gotham's soul. Batman was trying to present the city with a better hero than he could be with Harvey, and Joker was trying to tear all of that down.

When a villain's plot directly affects the people of Gotham in a personal way, like Joker's and Bane's did, the city's people are very important to that to make the plans seem more real and genuine. When Joker inflicted chaos, you saw the Gotham people be scared, panic, turn on Batman, turn on each other, even turn to chaos themselves out of fear of him and his threats.

Bane reveals major truths to Gotham, offers them their city back, their White Knight hero is revealed as a fraud, and the supposed murderer of their savior comes back. Not even the most die hard apologist could deny reactions from Gotham's people was necessary.

Quote:
TDKR, while the plot put Gotham's citizens in more peril than ever, shifted its focus back to Bruce's journey again. What I connected with is how TDKR really put you down in that pit with Bruce. While Gotham burned, you got to go on this journey with Bruce, rooting for him to find the strength to get out and reclaim his city.
Can you explain how showing some of Gotham's reactions to their dilemmas and the startling revelations would have taken such a huge bite out of Bruce's story?

Shave 5 minutes off Blake's screen time and you could have had plenty.

Quote:
The way I see it, Bane could have thrown Bruce in Blackgate and had him guarded 24/7, and we might have gotten a more Gotham-centric film that never left the city and was more focused on the blow by blow of what was going on there. I just think taking it global and spending time away from Gotham with Bruce helped the film tap into that more personal (I'd even say spiritual) Batman Begins vibe which I really appreciated. Of course, I wouldn't have minded seeing more of the average Gothamite's perspective. I wouldn't have objected to another 15 minutes or so of runtime to allow for that. But I think ultimately that would just appease my curiosity, not necessarily make it a tighter or better movie.
This is the mentality that perplexes me. Look at this:

- The Russian Ballerina giving her opinion of Gotham and Batman and Dent at the dinner scene
- The people at Dent's press conference
- The people on the ferries

Now that's just a sampling of some of the major scenes that incorporated Gotham's people as individual personalities. With all the siege stuff in TDKR, are you REALLY saying inserting some Gotham centric citizens like that would have been such a dramatic change to the script?

The most laughable thing of all is that out of all the villains, Bane's plan was the one that was about the people more than ever, because he spent MONTHS with them under his rule, and we got no insight at all from how any of the Gotham people felt about this.

It completely robbed Gotham of a personality and an identity. That's why so many didn't give a hoot about Gotham's plight.

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Last edited by The Joker; 10-27-2012 at 12:16 AM.
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