TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

[Anno_Domini]

So I was re-watching TDKR at a friend's house(and you all know how! Lol), and I think there is some confusion now to some who believe Bruce Wayne losing his money was the top story in that newspaper Fox handed Bruce, but it's not...it was on page 3. It was NOT the big headline for the newspaper, just as how Batman was the main headline for the newspaper at the end of Batman Begins, bumping Wayne destroying the manor to page 8.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by jmc

The people of Gotham are exactly like the background characters in Inception - nameless, faceless, beings. That is far from being handled perfectly.

Originally Posted by jmc

Cinema is not a booklet of rules, I agree, but when you stray from certain conventions your executions need to be handled perfectly otherwise you're open to justifiable criticism. If Nolan and co are happy with the fact this horrific event is not seen from the perspective of regular people then that's fine, but it's not fine for me and others especially when the last two films depicted how ordinary people are affected by the insanity that is happening around them. That is why Gotham is very much a character in both films one and two, because the city is given a voice on multiple occasions by the Joe averages. In TDKR Gotham is a hollow shell of the city it was in the previous films, again if Nolan was ok with that then that's his decision and he has to live with it, but it is a valid criticism to make when people have invested so much in not just Batman but Gotham City as well throughout the whole series. To simply forget about the people of Gotham is frankly inexcusable, especially when a large part of the whole series has been about getting Gotham back on its feet. The last thing the movie needed was common citizens? Nothing could be further from the truth, this film out of all the films needed the people of Gotham to be seen and heard.

Originally Posted by jmc

The reason there is so much talk for a film that doesn't exists is because the ideas of that non-existent film is presented to us in Rises. Rises is a hodgepodge of ideas that could span about 3 or 4 different movies, and yet they're all presented to us in one 2 hour 45 mins time frame. That is a great deal of why many of us are unsatisfied with the final product and believe it to be a clunky movie and the worst of the series. It's trying to be simultaneously an epic blockbuster, deep character story, a war film, a crime drama, and a thinking mans movie. That's all well and good if the execution is perfect, it's ambitious as hell to try and cram so much into such a short run time (relative to the size of the story), but it's execution dependent. If those elements don't gel together perfectly you're left with a film where the ideas presented start to cancel each other out because they're all jockeying for attention, and as a consequence of that lack of cohesion the other flaws in the film become all the more adamant - plot issues, under developed characters, gaps in logic, weak motives, etc, TDK and Begins both suffer from similar problems as well to varying degrees (all films do really), but because the stories in those two films are far more focused you don't notice the flaws as much.

It's all well and good to say judge the film for what it is, but that's all any of us have done. Most of us who don't like the film as much as others have seen the film multiple times, and I'll hazard a guess it because we were trying to work out what it is about the film that didn't work for us. I'm probably not the only one who's replayed the movie in their head and altered it to follow one of the ideas presented to us, and the reason we do that is because we look at the previous two films and see what it is about them we loved about them. We feel Rises doesn't live up to those movies because there is an absence of what made those movies great. Is it fair to judge this movie based on the past two? Yes and No. I do admit every film should be judge on it's own merit, sequel or not, but in a series that has gone out of it's way to be a thinking mans superhero story to depart from certain aspects in the final chapter to many is unforgivable. Add in repeated elements from Batman Begins and Nolan entire body of film work and you've got yourself a potent mix ready for criticism if it's anything short of well executed.

I'll finish by saying I'm pretty certain those of us 'haters', 'whiners', 'nitpickers', whatever we've been labeled, can appreciate what the movie was trying to accomplish and can admire it's scope and ambition, but all we're doing is calling it as we see it, and we don't see it as good as either films one or two. Frankly, we believe there's a better movie within Rises, maybe even better than TDK, and that Nolan could have produced something far grander. In time we may be able to appreciate Rises to some degree, but we're never going to love it.

Laying it down like a boss.

Quoted for truth.

Originally Posted by The Joker

This more focused on Bruce Wayne argument doesn't make any sense. What kind of weak script is unable to show some Gotham reactions and still keep the story focused on Bruce?

Only the kind fanboys make up. Nolan could have done both but he didn't.

Originally Posted by jmc

Did you even read what I just wrote or quoted it simply to make some kind of pointless comment to show your support for the film?

Pointless comment to show support. Dark Knight always pop in with the your opinion spiel.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Exactly, the argument that this film didn't need the ordinary citizen's perspective is flat out ridiculous. I don't even know how people are defending Nolan's decision. TDK and BB handled the city as a whole much better than the movie that needed it the most out of the whole trilogy.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I would argue that TDKR isn't on the same level as the other two. BB and TDK are head and above all other movies in the genre

BB- Did a great job of showing why someone would want/need to become a masked hero in the first place. People who don't even like movies in the superhero genre love this movie for a reason. It's definitely not a perfect movie, but it is by far the best superhero origin movie of all time

TDK- Best superhero movie ever. Manages to show the real life consequences of being a superhero, never has their world felt so real. Great villain, great performances, good writing, BB made me a Nolan fan, TDK made me a Nolan stan.

TDKR- Certain decisions like the 8 year absence can be excused, not showing the populace cannot. TDKR fails at the very thing its predecessors succeeded so marvelously at, making us care about the thing the hero is fighting for (the city of Gotham). I would not have gave a damn if the bomb had gone off in TDKR, yet I was tense as hell when watching that ferry scene in TDK. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is a failure on Nolan's part that there is more tension/intrigue in a finale where only a few hundred people might die than where an entire city might be annihilated. The villain's motivations are cliche and boring, their plan is stupid and contrived.

What most of the people who think the hate for the movie is excessive don't get is that the criticism is coming from fans of the trilogy. Neither BB nor TDK were perfect movies, and they were completely different type of movies so people who say we were were expecting TDK part 2 are incorrect. I loved BB and TDK and will continue to think they are the best superhero movies ever, I am thankful to Nolan for the first two. But I was very dissappointed by the last entry

Originally Posted by The Joker

I couldn't have put it better myself. That was a huge problem with TDKR. Great characters we did care about did not get enough screen time (Selina, Alfred) or interesting things to do (Gordon). Then we had to suffer dull characters like Foley taking up precious screen time.

Very well said. BB was rife with Gotham persona who were NOT main characters;

Joe Chill, an example of the desperate who took the lives of Bruce's parents. Shows how bad in Gotham things got. An example of the kind of person who kills when they're hungry as Ra's put it.

The homeless man, a flavor of the lowest in Gotham who are not bad guys, haven't given into the desperation and accept the poverty situation of Gotham. He could have mugged Bruce or tried to steal from him, but he didn't.

D.A. Finch and his reluctance to prosecute because Falcone has half the city bought and paid for. An example of the "Good people scared" that Rachel spoke about.

Flass, the corrupt Cop. An obvious one. The rotten apples good people like Gordon has to work with and can't do anything about it.

Judge Faden, the corrupt judge. This man can set people free to line up for assassination for Falcone. An example of how Falcone's corruption has spread into the legal system.

The upper class people at the hotel scene. People who are not desperate, not affected by crime, and therefore have a divided opinion on Batman tackling crime in Gotham. Some think he's great, others think he is crazy, shouldn't take the law into his own hands etc.

Earle, more upper class. A man in power who abuses his power by covering up thefts in his company. He's not corrupt. He's just a bad egg.

The Felafel guy, the lower class. Struggles to earn a living and is abused by the corrupt like Flass by taking his money.

The Narrows kid, more lower class. The kind of good people who populate the Narrows. The "dirty" section of Gotham.

There's a whole bunch of different types and classes of Gothamites and all used effectively in the story to paint a personality and reaction to all things in Gotham.

To paraphrase what someone else said; If the story revolves around a city being taken over you need to know how the city is reacting. Gotham IMO felt more like a city in TDK than TDKR. Gotham looks in good shape to me. The "Ghost town" thing is just a cheap excuse to me to convey Gotham's state. We've seen Gotham reactions in BB and TDK a few examples being the BB dinner table scene (swimming pool), Police discussion in BB, Rachel and her lawyer friend, things working differently after Falcone's taken down, Dinner table scene in TDK, Chaos in hospitals, Ferry scene, Chaos outside TV station, Pub with Engel's Joker speech, Army around with heaps of traffic and others. All these things no matter how big or small or whether you like them or dislike them build a city outside of Batman/Gordon/Dent/Alfred etc.

Yet in TDKR the city felt contained. At NO POINT does anyone other than Blake/Gordon and that orphan really get across that the city needs/wants Batman. It is as if the city doesn't care.

Quoted for truth.

Bravo.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

So I was re-watching TDKR at a friend's house(and you all know how! Lol), and I think there is some confusion now to some who believe Bruce Wayne losing his money was the top story in that newspaper Fox handed Bruce, but it's not...it was on page 3. It was NOT the big headline for the newspaper, just as how Batman was the main headline for the newspaper at the end of Batman Begins, bumping Wayne destroying the manor to page 8.

The details of it are on page 3, the headline is on page 1. Ya see it again in Wayne Manor before he screws Talia. He puts the paper on the table.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

The details of it are on page 3, the headline is on page 1. Ya see it again in Wayne Manor before he screws Talia. He puts the paper on the table.

Gotham Times - newspaper Fox hands Bruce

Gotham Post - newspaper Bruce has when he and Miranda walks into the manor

Two different newspapers.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I actually do not think BB handled it that much differently. The voice of everyday Gothamites were Rachel, Gordon and Alfred for much of that with the upperclass being represented by board members of Wayne Enterprises and their dates. In TDKR the upperclass is again represented by the Wayne Board, as well as smug Wall Streeters, while the voice of the middle and working classes are supposed to be echoed through Blake, Selina and Folley.

I will agree TDK felt more like an entire city was being painted. That is one of the reasons it is the best film of the three.

If you look at the way Gotham is presented in Begins it's actually not unlike how it's presented in TDK, the difference being I think is that they are more seen than heard as opposed to TDK when they're both seen and heard. We see it in the Narrows with the child, on the streets with the Hobo, The Judge in Falcone's bar, the rich folks at the restaurant, and of course Joe Chill, hell even the falafel guy, those people are Gotham, their voices are not nearly as loud in Begins but they are the faces of what's happening to the city within the story. When I and others say 'Voice of Gotham' we don't necessarily mean it in a literal sense, we mean it in a sense of perspective. It's probably not the right term to be using, a better term would probably be 'Perspective of Gotham' which is sorely lacking in Rises. We don't see how things are for Joe Public in TDKR, it's a level of ambiguity that creates an emotional disconnect with the supposed danger that they are facing.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Gotham Times - newspaper Fox hands Bruce

Did ya see the headline on that paper? Hmmm?

Gotham Post - newspaper Bruce has when he and Miranda walks into the manor

Two different newspapers.

Cool so it made the front page of two different papers.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by jmc

If you look at the way Gotham is presented in Begins it's actually not unlike how it's presented in TDK, the difference being I think is that they are more seen than heard as opposed to TDK when they're both seen and heard. We see it in the Narrows with the child, on the streets with the Hobo, The Judge in Falcone's bar, the rich folks at the restaurant, and of course Joe Chill, hell even the falafel guy, those people are Gotham, their voices are not nearly as loud in Begins but they are the faces of what's happening to the city within the story. When I and others say 'Voice of Gotham' we don't necessarily mean it in a literal sense, we mean it in a sense of perspective. It's probably not the right term to be using, a better term would probably be 'Perspective of Gotham' which is sorely lacking in Rises. We don't see how things are for Joe Public in TDKR, it's a level of ambiguity that creates an emotional disconnect with the supposed danger that they are facing.

I know what you mean. But similarly I can point to the Wall Streeters at the Stock exchange having their shoes shined and talking about Wayne, the Wayne Board that featured some of the same faces from BB, Foley's family huddling while Gotham is ransomed, the man who runs the orphanage that is doubling as a shelter during Bane's occupation, the Mayor and the Congressman at the party, Selina's thieving friend and the smug businessman who Crane sets on the ice.

They both let you know there is a city, but the middle film is the only one where you feel the soul of the city is at stake and know what that is.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Did ya see the headline on that paper? Hmmm?



Cool so it made the front page of two different papers.

One would say it made the headline on both papers when they don't have any better of an argument



Doesn't look like it's about Bruce Wayne's money, does it?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

One would say it made the headline on both papers when they don't have any better of an argument

Or if ya can't see the paper headline in the movie.

Doesn't look like it's about Bruce Wayne's money, does it?

Congrats ya found a screencap with the obscured front page nobody saw in the movie. Well done.

[Anno_Domini]

Lol, another poor attempt at trying to make your point the right one. Needless to say, the Gotham Times DID have Batman the main headline and not every single paper having their main headline about Wayne losing his money.

[Fudgie]

My point is the right one. Did the flick show a close up of that headline? Nope. Can't even see a headline. Did the flick show ya a close up of the Bruce Wayne going broke headline? Yup. Zoomed in on it on the table in Wayne Manor.

Am I right? Yup.

[Anno_Domini]

Did Fox say 'Page 3'? Yes. Could someone with a brain realize that Batman was the main headline? Yes. Did I show you solid proof of the main page being about Batman? Yes. Did it show a different newspaper showing Wayne as the headline? Yes. Does that mean not all the papers had their big headline about Wayne? Yes.

Am I right? I am not right to those that have to be shown everything on film and when something isn't shown, then it's easy to flack on.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Did Fox say 'Page 3'? Yes.

Yeah so?

Could someone with a brain realize that Batman was the main headline? Yes.

Only if ya saw Batman on the main page. Not obvious or clear in the movie. Can't even see a big BATMAN headline to go with it in your pic.

Did it show a different newspaper showing Wayne as the headline? Yes. Does that mean not all the papers had their big headline about Wayne? Yes.

It proves that Batman was not big enough news to be on all the headlines like he should be.

I am not right to those that have to be shown everything on film and when something isn't shown, then it's easy to flack on.

But ya do that's why ya went and hunted for that pic. Ya had to try and prove something that ya couldn't before.

[BatLobsterRises]

Nolan talks about how he loves films like Blade Runner that "create a reality beyond the frame" and he tries to do that with his films. The newspaper thing is a perfect example. There are so many little set design things that didn't even make the film (or at least I don't think they did). The Bane propaganda stuff, the Blackgate dedication to Dent, The Wayne Enterprises sign on Trump Tower etc. The reality of the film is much larger than what actually lands on screen, and I think that's very much a part of Nolan's overall M.O.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yeah so?

Hey, you're agreeing, yay!

Only if ya saw Batman on the main page. Not obvious or clear in the movie. Can't even see a big BATMAN headline to go with it in your pic.

Ahhh, trying to further along your point saying that the word 'BATMAN' had to be on the front page as well, lol. What else ya got?

It proves that Batman was not big enough news to be on all the headlines like he should be.

Or that Gotham Post just printed a new edition out since the picture shown on the Gotham Post was Bruce walking out of Wayne Tower...which was only taken earlier that day.

But ya do that's why ya went and hunted for that pic. Ya had to try and prove something that ya couldn't before.

Ya don't know what ya talking about. I've said this many times that Wayne losing his money was never the biggest story of that night.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Hey, you're agreeing, yay!

I never disagreed he looked at page 3. Evah.

Ahhh, trying to further along your point saying that the word 'BATMAN' had to be on the front page as well, lol. What else ya got?

Plenty. The flick makes no attention to the headline on the paper because there is none. Just an obscured Batman pic ya can hardly even see unless ya take a screen cap at one shot and stare at the paper to make it out.

Or that Gotham Post just printed a new edition out since the picture shown on the Gotham Post was Bruce walking out of Wayne Tower...which was only taken earlier that day.

Pic?

Ya don't know what ya talking about. I've said this many times that Wayne losing his money was never the biggest story of that night.

I know what ya said. Ya said Batman was and ya had to go pic hunting to try and prove it.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

I never disagreed he looked at page 3. Evah.

Thus, Wayne wasn't the top story

Plenty. The flick makes no attention to the headline on the paper because there is none. Just an obscured Batman pic ya can hardly even see unless ya take a screen cap at one shot and stare at the paper to make it out.

The flick doesn't make mention because there is bigger fish to fry. Name me one reason Fox would say "You made the front page, yay!!!!". No. It's not needed. Since we have a pic clearly shown what is the main headline, that's all we need to know besides the stubborn ones who only accept fact if it's shown on film.

Pic?

It's during the scene Blake helps escorting Wayne away from the paparazzi and when we see the front page of the Gotham Post, the picture looks exactly the same of Bruce walking out of Wayne Tower earlier that day.

I know what ya said. Ya said Batman was and ya had to go pic hunting to try and prove it.

I didn't have to go pic hunting to prove anything. Only now did I have to prove to you that there were two separate newspapers my friend

[BatLobsterRises]

I love Bruce's Pat Bateman look in that scene.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Thus, Wayne wasn't the top story

In that newspaper.

The flick doesn't make mention because there is bigger fish to fry. Name me one reason Fox would say "You made the front page, yay!!!!".

Didn't need to. Just show it clearly like they did with the other newspaper. Simple.

No. It's not needed. Since we have a pic clearly shown what is the main headline

Except it ain't clearly shown and there is no headline.

It's during the scene Blake helps escorting Wayne away from the paparazzi and when we see the front page of the Gotham Post, the picture looks exactly the same of Bruce walking out of Wayne Tower earlier that day.

Ehhh I meant a pic of the newspaper showing that, not a pic of Bruce walking out of W.E.

I didn't have to go pic hunting to prove anything.

Yeah ya did. Nobody else was supporting ya and ya only saw it cos you rewatched the movie and deliberately looked at the newspaper to see if ya could make anything out.

Only now did I have to prove to you that there were two separate newspapers my friend

Yup and you've still proven that that Batman's return wasn't main news all around. Cheers.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Nolan talks about how he loves films like Blade Runner that "create a reality beyond the frame" and he tries to do that with his films. .

Good directors tend to do that.

He fills the world the characters inhabit with a great sense of detail , without spending time with irrelevant gothamites.

Its called good filmmaking.

The typical generalization of groups or societies behaviors by creating irrelevant storylines is something a guy like michael bay resorts a lot.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

In that newspaper.

As long as you know this

Didn't need to. Just show it clearly like they did with the other newspaper. Simple.

They didn't need to show it clearly either. They only showed the other newspaper because Bruce and Miranda were walking into a manor whose power was going to be knocked off and how Bruce indeed went from 'millionaire to bum'.

Except it ain't clearly shown and there is no headline.

But the pic shows what really was, so I'm fine about that. I don't need everything shown on film.

Ehhh I meant a pic of the newspaper showing that, not a pic of Bruce walking out of W.E.

I know what you meant, but I can't find the Gotham Post paper. Look for it when you see TDKR again until I ever find a pic of the Gotham Post paper in TDKR.

Yeah ya did. Nobody else was supporting ya and ya only saw it cos you rewatched the movie and deliberately looked at the newspaper to see if ya could make anything out.

Lol, it's fine if nobody was supporting me. That's usually what happens until I prove I'm right

Yup and you've still proven that that Batman's return wasn't main news all around. Cheers.

Wasn't the main news even if that Gotham Post paper could've been new that day? Yah, makes sense, lol.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

Good directors tend to do that.

He fills the world the characters inhabit with a great sense of detail , without spending time with irrelevant gothamites.

Its called good filmmaking.

Exactly. It's also a staple of good storytelling in literature and really any and every medium.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

They didn't need to show it clearly either.

Well if ya want your audience to know that Gotham is reacting to Batman being back by making the headlines then ya need to show it. Ya ain't getting any buzz from Gotham's people about it.

They only showed the other newspaper because Bruce and Miranda were walking into a manor whose power was going to be knocked off and how Bruce indeed went from 'millionaire to bum'.

Except we already knew he lost all his dough. We heard him be told by Lucius. We saw him get kicked out of a board meeting in his own company.

Didn't need Mr. millionaire to bum headline to tell the obvious after all of that.

But the pic shows what really was, so I'm fine about that. I don't need everything shown on film.

But the pic doesn't pause like that in the movie for all of us to stop and squint at the partially obscured pic on the paper.

I know what you meant, but I can't find the Gotham Post paper. Look for it when you see TDKR again until I ever find a pic of the Gotham Post paper in TDKR.

Count on it.

Lol, it's fine if nobody was supporting me. That's usually what happens until I prove I'm right

So ya are used to being disagreed with. I am shocked.

]Wasn't the main news even if that Gotham Post paper could've been new that day? Yah, makes sense, lol.

Quickest damn print of a newspaper lol. He comes out of W.E. gets his pic taken, gets a lift to see Selina, then goes home and he's already got a fully printed paper out on the stands with a photo of him that was taken within an hour as though it was a huge breaking story they had already been talking about in the morning paper.

Yeah don't think so.

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Exactly. It's also a staple of good storytelling in literature and really any and every medium.

Except it isn't Otherwise ya are saying BB and TDK did it wrong which they didn't. They did it right. They inhabit the world with detail by using people. People make more life than empty snowy peaceful looking streets.

[TheBat812]

There is no right and wrong, it all depends on the context. The storytellers did not think it was warranted this time around, despite it being necessary in the other films. It's all subjective. What they did didn't work for you, but it certainly did for alot of people, so I think they're pretty happy with their decision.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Well if ya want your audience to know that Gotham is reacting to Batman being back by making the headlines then ya need to show it. Ya ain't getting any buzz from Gotham's people about it.

The audience already knows how Gotham has reacted by giving specific reactions from the patrol officers, Blake, Foley, Gordon, Selina and Daggett or even the news itself when a newscaster was interrupted by another newscaster saying how he believes it's Batman chasing the motorcycles.

Except we already knew he lost all his dough. We heard him be told by Lucius. We saw him get kicked out of a board meeting in his own company.

Didn't need Mr. millionaire to bum headline to tell the obvious after all of that.

The headline being shown just pushes the idea that yes, Wayne is now a "regular joe" as much as it was pushed when someone yelled out "Hey Wayne, how does it feel to be one of us?" as Bruce was leaving Wayne Tower.

But the pic doesn't pause like that in the movie for all of us to stop and squint at the partially obscured pic on the paper.

But yet there doesn't need to be anymore questioning when you can find such a pic.

Count on it.

Cool beans.

So ya are used to being disagreed with. I am shocked.

Until I prove I'm right

Quickest damn print of a newspaper lol. He comes out of W.E. gets his pic taken, gets a lift to see Selina, then goes home and he's already got a fully printed paper out on the stands with a photo of him that was taken within an hour as though it was a huge breaking story they had already been talking about in the morning paper.

Yeah don't think so.

Quickest damn print? Really? Wayne heading back to the manor was closer to the night time before Batman has his fight with Bane and the meeting at Wayne Tower could've been during the morning hours. That's not a quick print out when something new and unexpected has just happened. It's happened before for that business to spit out a new breaking story.

[kvz5]

Source (WB's TDKR FYC page) - http://warnerbros2012.warnerbros.com...ilm=darkknight

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