The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - Part 141

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

The 8 year gap doesn't work ? Why ?

It exists so a character can grow up ? Were you one of the script supervisors or something ? That is some knowledgeable information

The problem is the name ...Robin ? Hmm.....

General populace , sequels...the problem is , what does any of that have to do with the story of Rises ? Or its sloppiness ?

Blake says that Bruce came to see him when he was in the orphanage. We know he left the orphanage when he was 16. We also know that Bruce operated as Batman for around a year up until the end of TDK. This means that Bruce went to the orphanage at some point around TDK or a little after. Blake can't be a cop at that age so the character needs to grow up. Well how do you allow him to grow up and fullfill what is required in TDKR? Time gap inbetween TDK and TDKR. Eight year gap conveniently makes Blake 22-24. A believable age for someone to be a cop.



I didn't need to work on the script or be in the planning to figure that out. Without the gap Blake wouldn't be old enough to do what the plot requires.

[Travesty]

Maybe "sloppy" is the wrong term to use. "Lazy" is probably a better fit.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Travesty

Maybe "sloppy" is the wrong term to use. "Lazy" is probably a better fit.

Yeah, that may be a better word for it.

[Tequilla]

eheh , at least i would have like to read your opinion about why the gap doesn't work regarding Bruce , or the eventual sloppiness of the movie.

Inventing a theory about the process of writing is still not a fact.

The gap is the most important aspect regarding where Bruce stands at the beginning , and how the journey of the story will affect him as an individual , and us as an audience. I found it particularly well written and quite subtle.

[CConn]

Yes.

[MagnarTheGreat]

I find it silly that some Russian guy writing a research paper caused Bruce to lock himself away from the world and lose his mind (even more) enough to be shooting arrows at the help. Rachel and Dent's deaths didn't make Bruce become a recluse, but Pavel did. It's wack.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Not really. Like i said i would have rather Nolan make a great film, which it isn't, than try to force an ending to Bruce's story. Its a burdened somewhat sloppy film that was drowning under the weight of trying to wrap up the story.

Take Blake, he needed that character to allow Bruce to have an ending. Then he takes that character and gives him a convoluted back story forcing them to input an 8 year gap inbetween tdk and tdkr because otherwise blake wouldnt be old enough in the film. The eight year gap strains credulity within the character of batman. Then there is the problem of Blake figuring out Batman is bruce all from a look bruce gave him. This of course making every other character look inept due to them having much more evidence batman is bruce but never putting it together. And then there is Nolan giving him the name Robin despitw him becoming batman leaving the general populace to think he is robin or that the film is setting up a sequel that will never come. It was just sloppy.

Has Nolan come out and said why he gave Blake the name Robin besides being a pointless bone?

Agreed. Especially with the bolded part. That was so stupid.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

eheh , at least i would have like to read your opinion about why the gap doesn't work regarding Bruce , or the eventual sloppiness of the movie.

Inventing a theory about the process of writing is still not a fact.

The gap is the most important aspect regarding where Bruce stands at the beginning , and how the journey of the story will affect him as an individual , and us as an audience. I found it particularly well written and quite subtle.

It isn't a theory. Without the 8 year gap the Blake's character wouldn't be old enough. That is fact.

As far as sloppiness I'll add another.

Talia's plot. She spends years slowly gaining entrance into Bruce's life, waits more time on him to build an energy device, then waits even more time for someone to find a way to turn that device into a bomb. She could have purchased a dirty bomb or done any number of things in less than a year so there is that. Bruce even calls her on this when he says "perhaps the knife was too slow." Then there is her sleeping with him instead of, you know, stabbing him while his dick is out. She is incompetent. In the end not only has Bruce killed Ras, and stopped his plan to destroy gotham on two occassions, but he also banged his daughter. Actually that is kind of hillarious when I think about it.

In hindsight, she gets it honestly. Ras in BB wasn't very smart either and dealt in convoluted plots.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Blake says that Bruce came to see him when he was in the orphanage. We know he left the orphanage when he was 16. We also know that Bruce operated as Batman for around a year up until the end of TDK. This means that Bruce went to the orphanage at some point around TDK or a little after. Blake can't be a cop at that age so the character needs to grow up. Well how do you allow him to grow up and fullfill what is required in TDKR? Time gap inbetween TDK and TDKR. Eight year gap conveniently makes Blake 22-24. A believable age for someone to be a cop.



I didn't need to work on the script or be in the planning to figure that out. Without the gap Blake wouldn't be old enough to do what the plot requires.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to point out as an issue here. All you did was prove that what they wrote makes sense. It also shows that maybe if the gap had been different, maybe Blake doesn't meet up with Bruce, and Batman fails and the city is destroyed. Blake is therefore incredibly important to helping Bruce prevail in his quest. So how is this at all poor writing?

[CConn]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

I find it silly that some Russian guy writing a research paper caused Bruce to lock himself away from the world and lose his mind (even more) enough to be shooting arrows at the help. Rachel and Dent's deaths didn't make Bruce become a recluse, but Pavel did. It's wack.

I think what happened was, after their deaths, Bruce considered his time as Batman a failure, and instead tried to do good as Bruce Wayne. So he poured his heart and soul into this project in hopes of improving the human condition.

When it was revealed that this effort could be corrupted and twisted into something evil - much like the Joker twisted and corrupted the concept of dual personas - Bruce lost all faith in himself to ever accomplish something truly successful and good.

It's actually rather deep now that I think about it. And, again, ties even more into the idea of Batman as a symbol, and people's ability to draw strength from such a symbol and concept.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

Isn't Robin a girls name anyway?

Not always, lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_(name)

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

It isn't a theory. Without the 8 year gap the Blake's character wouldn't be old enough. That is fact.

I honestly think you should reread what you wrote. The only fact is how everything is ordered according to the gap...not the other way around.

The gap in the movie accentuates how Bruce's handles his duality. Its the basic foundation of the movie.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by CConn

I think what happened was, after their deaths, Bruce considered his time as Batman a failure, and instead tried to do good as Bruce Wayne. So he poured his heart and soul into this project in hopes of improving the human condition.

When it was revealed that this effort could be corrupted and twisted into something evil - much like the Joker twisted and corrupted the concept of dual personas - Bruce lost all faith in himself to ever accomplish something truly successful and good.

It's actually rather deep now that I think about it. And, again, ties even more into the idea of Batman as a symbol, and people's ability to draw strength from such a symbol and concept.

For eight years tho? No. A year. Yeah. A couple. Maybe. I just have a hard time believing Bruce would become a recluse for eight years. Actually I have a hard time believing anyone would do that, let alone Bruce. Perhaps I should blame alfred for letting him stew. It was the butler's fault as usual.

Going back to the problem with no one discovering Bruce is Batman but Blake. Bruce, who is a major figure in gotham, conveniently disappears from life when Batman disappears.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

I find it silly that some Russian guy writing a research paper caused Bruce to lock himself away from the world and lose his mind (even more) enough to be shooting arrows at the help. Rachel and Dent's deaths didn't make Bruce become a recluse, but Pavel did. It's wack.

It isnt only that. What you said only adds to his condition as a failure...as Bruce. The other two movies already showed us very heavy consequences to himself.

Him being locked is how he responds to the situation of being unable to live as a normal human being , and at the same time seeing his role as vigilante being completely irrelevant to Gotham. He feels completely disconnected from the world. He closes himself. But he isnt free of the grudge he lived his whole life. The darkness that consumes him ....the one he needs to rise from

[CConn]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

For eight years tho? No. A year. Yeah. A couple. Maybe. I just have a hard time believing Bruce would become a recluse for eight years. Actually I have a hard time believing anyone would do that let alone Bruce. Perhaps I should blame alfred for letting hims stew. Damn you, alfred!

See, that's the supposition I was talking about.

While eight years makes no sense to you, it is perfectly plausible to me. And who's at all to say your problem with it is anymore valid or sensible than my lack of a problem? It's not as though either of us are really qualified to comment on the presumed psychological condition of a fictional character.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Going back to the problem with no one discovering Bruce is Batman but Blake. Bruce, who is a major figure in gotham, conveniently disappears from life when Batman disappears.

Bruce Wayne exile occurs 3 years before the actions of this movie. Not 8

I'm starting to understand the "sloppiness" ...

That is a MAJOR detail of the movie. Bruce actually tried to live a normal life.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Blake says that Bruce came to see him when he was in the orphanage. We know he left the orphanage when he was 16. We also know that Bruce operated as Batman for around a year up until the end of TDK. This means that Bruce went to the orphanage at some point around TDK or a little after. Blake can't be a cop at that age so the character needs to grow up. Well how do you allow him to grow up and fullfill what is required in TDKR? Time gap inbetween TDK and TDKR. Eight year gap conveniently makes Blake 22-24. A believable age for someone to be a cop.



I didn't need to work on the script or be in the planning to figure that out. Without the gap Blake wouldn't be old enough to do what the plot requires.

That's assuming they created their Robin character before the setting of the film though. Perhaps they created the setting and then made a character that would suit that setting.

[Marvolo]

edit

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

That is a MAJOR detail of the movie. Bruce actually tried to live a normal life.

No, he didn't.

Bruce: There's nothing out there for me.
Alfred: And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl, but you didn't move on, you never went to find a life, to find someone...
Bruce: Alfred... I did find someone.
Alfred: I know, and you lost her. But that's all part of living, sir. But you're not living.

[Tequilla]

He tried , he wasn't able to. That's the conflict. Or else there would be no movie. That's the story.

Its like a leash he knows he has to control.

Rises is the story about how Bruce learns to move on.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by The Joker

No, he didn't.

Bruce: There's nothing out there for me.
Alfred: And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl, but you didn't move on, you never went to find a life, to find someone...
Bruce: Alfred... I did find someone.
Alfred: I know, and you lost her. But that's all part of living, sir. But you're not living.

You're both not quite right.

Personally, Bruce didn't try to live, but publicly Bruce Wayne was still active for several years after Batman's disappearance.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Yeah, 3 years as a recluse. In the run-up to the movie we were led to believe that Bruce was frozen in time for 8 years by Mr. Nolan and Emma Thomas, but we were duped.

MIRANDA
You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man that doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it... And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding.

MIRANDA
Three years ago a Russian scientist published a paper on weaponized fusion reactions. One week later, your reactor started developing problems. I think this machine works.

Dr. Pavel turned Bruce Wayne into a house-bound recluse.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

He tried , he wasn't able to. That's the conflict.

But he didn't. Alfred said he never went to find a normal life. Bruce pinned all his hopes of a normal life on Rachel, something she warned him not to do in TDK.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by The Joker

But he didn't. Alfred said he never went to find a normal life. Bruce pinned all his hopes of a normal life on Rachel, something she warned him not to do in TDK.

Alfred addresses to Bruce why he cant live a normal life.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by CConn

You're both not quite right.

Personally, Bruce didn't try to live, but publicly Bruce Wayne was still active for several years after Batman's disappearance.

I think the problem his we're talking about a character that has many different faces.

And that is something that goes back to Begins and the little orphan child. I was fascinated reading Nolan thought about young Bruce as the young Kennedy in his father funeral , showing himself very serious. Almost like having a mask.

I dont think he lives his life with a chip , changing its personalities back and forth. That's why i said he tries to live a life. But he can't. His duality is a big conflict , and the way he handles failure.